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Barrick Stormsworn
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:37:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: La Tortura
Now Abaddon has the same alphastrike as Tempest and just a tiny bit less than Maelstrim. That's with more hp, more resistances, better tracking etc. Any reason left why we should use Minmatar BS's with arty then?

With AC's abaddon has dps similar to AC pest. And again with overall better tank. Any reason left to use Minmatar BS's with AC's?



Concerning arty, the issue is range. Was just looking at Amarr BSs for the first time in QF and I can't hit my 150km+ goal in an Amarr BS. Their damage is intense (provided you're not hitting an EM/Thermal tanked opponent >_> ) but their range can't compare.

There's no way in hell an Abaddon with AC is going to compare to a Tempest with AC, sorry.

Barrick Stormsworn
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:43:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: PCX339


Amarr have had a few issues for a while but you gotta love their tanks.


domi tank better.



How does a grid limited ship with less cap and less lowslots than, say, a Geddon, tank better?

duh.




Their weapons don't use the cap you need for tanking :-P All things being equal, Domi can tank way better than an Armageddon unless the geddon fits projectiles.

Da Ram
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:58:00 - [93]
 

Please give us some more tactical indicators on the HUD or GUI.

I d like to know when I m scrambled beyond hope of warping off in that fight I can now take a breather in.

For a bonus- give me a skill or module to determine who it is who scrambles me as well ;]

Thanks,
Ram

Cerui Tarshiel
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.23 01:18:00 - [94]
 

I have to agree with several other people in this thread that this devblog has allieviated several of my concerns with Revelations. I would indeed be very happy if the drake got it's rof bonus back, always expected some kind of nerf to it and if that has to be a launcher slot and pg reduction that's fine by me. As for the hurricane, I would've preferred it as it was but as minnie ships are already skill intensive I think it's gank be pulled back to prenerf levels without too much trouble.

As for the changes to the hp boost I'm quite quite happy seeing as destroyers are finally going to get some degree of survivability

Shin Ra
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.23 01:20:00 - [95]
 

I'm afraid now that hitpoints have increased, but dmg has increased by more than 25% with the addition of rigs. Once again, having cake and eating it.

Crux Australis
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.11.23 01:48:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Pesadel0
Basically the galente whined the myrmydon got their boost,the caldari whined got the boost to their drake,minmatar whined and they were told to learn to play.

Why am not surprised.


Winner!!!

(and stolen for signature purposes :P )

Phoenix Lonestar
Clockwork Orange Ltd
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:00:00 - [97]
 

Something about the HP boost not only irks me... but scares me as well. I can't yet articulate what it is that I know is inherently wrong, but maybe when Kali 1 (I refuse to call it Revelations, since it was Kali for frakkin' 2 years until 1 month ago it became "Revelations") comes out I'll be shown the error of my ways. Something about being able to tank longer (cap boost increase + HP boost), and not having a smaller increase in damage put out irks me. The HP boost pretty much eliminates small ships from the fleet repetoir, or so it seems. If a fight lasts 50% longer, does that mean I have to bring 50% more missiles/torps/lg charges, and thus fill my cargo bay entirely?

And what is this nonsense I hear about nerfing javelin torps and creating heavy assault missiles? Aren't T2 heavies the HAMs? Nothing should be ubarr powerful without having its tradeoffs.

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:02:00 - [98]
 

I'm all for giving back the Drake's ROF bonus instead of kinetic damage. For PvP, having a combat ship that has to ignore half of its bonuses to be effective (which is what Tux suggests) is just a bad idea. Losing a launcher AND the ROF bonus together is a bit much of a hit to its offense. If it needs some other balancing to keep the ROF bonus, then that should be considered.

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:05:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Phoenix Lonestar
Something about the HP boost not only irks me... but scares me as well. I can't yet articulate what it is that I know is inherently wrong, but maybe when Kali 1 (I refuse to call it Revelations, since it was Kali for frakkin' 2 years until 1 month ago it became "Revelations") comes out I'll be shown the error of my ways. Something about being able to tank longer (cap boost increase + HP boost), and not having a smaller increase in damage put out irks me. The HP boost pretty much eliminates small ships from the fleet repetoir, or so it seems. If a fight lasts 50% longer, does that mean I have to bring 50% more missiles/torps/lg charges, and thus fill my cargo bay entirely?

And what is this nonsense I hear about nerfing javelin torps and creating heavy assault missiles? Aren't T2 heavies the HAMs? Nothing should be ubarr powerful without having its tradeoffs.


You can't tank better. You can only tank the same rep/amount per cycle as before, you just have a larger HP buffer. I did a couple really nice BS 1 vs 1s on Sisi after finally getting on, and it wasn't horridly long or anything (except fighting a Raven), and it gave more time to do stuff.

Dunno if it's the best idea EVAR, but it seems to work.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:06:00 - [100]
 

Quote:
The Hurricane is a great ship, one of my favorites actually. If you're having problem making it work, ask someone who is using it effectively how they have it set up.


Do not condescend the Team Minmatar. Make no mistake the Hurricane is a great ship. Hell its still broken as far as WE are concerened. You did nothing but utterly destroy the flavor of the ship while retaining it to obsolete the Cyclone because they do the same role. You did not fix the problem and you know it. It's damage output is still similar it will just take the worthy to train up assault missiles 5.

On your other changes, they seem ok. The Abaddon is still not a healthy ship. Again, don't condescend the users. These are not ships for the people who already have capital skills to make work. If you learned anything from the crap bonus effeciency that was 'the typhoon' pre-rof bonus it would be if you give a ship a role and bonus to go with it... you shouldn't have to optimize the ship by forgoing its bonuses to do so.

Sorry tux but the Maelstrom, Abaddon, Drake and Hurricane need your love. Not your short fixes to get Revelations out the door.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:07:00 - [101]
 

Mmmm... probably not gonna be answered but.

You didn't speak anything about the Maelstrom and the Hyperion. There's been quite a bit of 'heated discussion' about those ships. Is the reason they're not being changed due to the mentioned changes to fleet combat to lessen the gank aspect of it? Or is there something else that means the Maelstrom gets to keep its not so favoured shield boost bonus?

Oh and... currently 3x sb2 on a hyperion = fleet ship. Not what you had in mind I hope?

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:27:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Shin Ra
I'm afraid now that hitpoints have increased, but dmg has increased by more than 25% with the addition of rigs. Once again, having cake and eating it.


you do know that rigs are stacking penalized with modules?

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:40:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Shin Ra
I'm afraid now that hitpoints have increased, but dmg has increased by more than 25% with the addition of rigs. Once again, having cake and eating it.


Are you kidding? You can't get any more DPS out of the setups with the new rigs than you can with the existing setups on TQ. The only real difference is that you can have a little more grid for a slight upgrade to a module here or there.

Using damage rigs actually reduces your DPS when compared to using damage mods as it's either a ROF or Damage bonus, and not both together, and the rigs stack with damage mods, thereby negating any possible benefit of using them all together.

Draycar Hazaran
Uninvited Guests
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:45:00 - [104]
 

Quote:
The Hurricane is a great ship, one of my favorites actually. If you're having problem making it work, ask someone who is using it effectively how they have it set up.


Boo! Hiss! I can set it up quite effectively, if not moreso than before. As Kaylana said, you've completely killed the flavor of the thing. It's just like cafeteria lunch now...

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:49:00 - [105]
 

Stay true to the desighn philosophy tuxford. Desroyers can't tank, greater hp just delays the inevitable. if it something bigger than it decides it needs to die, all this eans is that it dies in a full volley, instead of half the guns going off.
Destroyers are meant to gank frigates. Remove there rof penalty, and don't bother with a hp increase....
Play to there streanghs, which is massive short term gankage against small targets, don't try to patch up there weakneses.

DrEiak
Amarr
IONSTAR
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.23 03:15:00 - [106]
 

I have played eve for over 3 years and have never had a complaint until the last 3 patches (not including kali) In each patch amarr have become less and less useful. I was hoping that with kali this would get looked at, but it seems to be the general consensus of CCP that there is absolutly nothing wrong with amarr. WELL the PROBLEM is that amarr are obsolete, there is not a single aspect of this game that we accel at besides macro mining, which CCP does not support.

THE RESUME OF AN AMARRIAN SHIP:
THE BEST: armor, powergrid.
THE MEDIOCRETY: 2nd best sig radius, 2nd worse drones, 2nd worse tank, 2nd worse speed,
THE WORST: DPS, CPU, Hardest Fittings (cruiser mods fit very tight/not at all), EW, Sensor Str, turret falloff (which is worth more then optimal due the impact of high damage ammo not affecting falloff (tech 1)), Capacitor usage, suseptibility to NOS/Neut.

Amarr sucks. Our ships are the worst out there, do something about it. Feel free to make amarr do something well for a change!

Mordrake
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.23 03:25:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Mordrake on 23/11/2006 04:02:36
I seriously hope Santa puts a not so nurfed Drake in my stocking... because as a Noob going from fitting a Kessie with a full raft of Medium Missile launcehers to the next day only being able to fit Rocket Launcers on it Santa has consistently given me lumps of Coal.




Phoenix Lonestar
Clockwork Orange Ltd
Posted - 2006.11.23 03:45:00 - [108]
 

Okay... just checked out the javelin torps on Kali 1.

So decrease the damage by 20%, increase the explosion radius by 33%, and increase the HP on everything 25-30%.... so the net impact on the torps means they're roughly 50-60% less effective than they were. It seems like every time people ***** about T2 ammo being too ubarr, it gets a nerf that makes it not worth buying anymore. Isn't that the point of training up for a MONTH to be able to use T2 launchers and ammo, it's supposed to be great?

And decreasing the damage wasn't enough? It had to be an increase of explosion radius too? CCP likes to use SOE's method of balance changes. If something is too powerful, nerf the **** out of it on multiple different levels, thus rendering it useless, instead of one change at a time to see what really works. I'm *****ing and I don't even USE T2 torps.

ElDiabloRojo
Caldari
Colossus Technologies
P R I M E
Posted - 2006.11.23 03:58:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: ElDiabloRojo on 23/11/2006 04:04:39
ok sounds good and looks to make sense... one think i will ask tho is that if your ramping up the Hit points of capital ships... what are you doing to the hit points of POStarbases and POStations?

EDIT: just checked the test server... Hit points of caldari control tower

TEST SERVER
50 000 000 shield
4 000 000 armour

TQ SERVER
50 000 000 shield
4 000 000 armour

Phoenix dreadnaught
TEST SERVER
187 500 shield
156 250 armour
187 500 hull

TQ SERVER
37 500 shield
31 250 armour
37 500 hull

isnt that going to have some effect on POS battles?

Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:03:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Soyemia
...nerfing hurricane was not a good idea! It did one thing well, AC's, but now its semi crappy hybrid like cyclone, and myrmidon is going to be horribly overpowered, with damage output of BS, its gonna pwn all other BC's and prolly some BS's.

Welcome to play caldari and gallente online, I just started training for gallente.

Sure play gallente and caldari if you like, just don't be upset when I waste your ass in a hurricane.


Haha.

Corey Grim
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:26:00 - [111]
 

I have 1 point that i humbly ask ppl (and ofc Tux) to consider:

1. Alpha strike.
The "real" reason for tempests (and in near future maelstorms) Alpha strike lies in RP side of eve, minmatar has allways been the "hit and run" race when we speak "pure" matar designed ships there is Clear line of 3 kind of ships that matar has:

-Alpha ships (wolf, rupture, muninn, tempest) aka warp in, shoot one target with 1-3 volleys, warp out.

-Speed ships: (claw, jaguar, stabber, vagabond) warp in, stick some holes to enemy until u cant take dmg anymore, run like hell, warp away.

-Hybrid ships: personally i imagine that these ships have been born by matar spying every other race Razz and implementing some parts to their own desings (Bellicose, Cyclone, Typhoon) basicly these ships are most versatile ships in eve and also most skill intensive.

Ok now we ask how this is going to affect minmatar race ships:
well basicly more time in battle is bad for matar ships coz the whole point is usually not to hang around forever, Matar also have more HPs of course but that alone doesnt solve matars problems especially in alpha strike part (remember u will be warping in @ range and hoping to kill the enemy before it gets too close).

in speed part it gives ur enemy more time to get more webbers on your nice fast ship, ok this i can handle and accept for the sake of "longer=funnier battles".

back to the conserns of alpha: lets take example as previously mentioned the new amarr BS will have higher or close to same alpha strike as tempest,
the new matar BS will only have slightly higher alpha than the amarr one.
I ask you: where does this leave Tempest? whats it "role" as i have noticed every ship in eve have one but i cant see tempest fitting in any category where u would be better of flying something else.

ofc maybe im just blind and cant think role for tempest. it will not be "useless" ship in any case but its balance compared against any other tier 2 or tier 3 BS is bit off, this is the result of tier 3 battleships and HP boost.

Ofc you ask me how to fix it then ?

i believe im not capable of answering that question but i can give u my thoughts what could be done: the real problem lies in maelstorm and how its "roled" coz atm its clearly roled for npc... uhm excuse me.. both meaning its trying to be AC boat and arty boat at same time, well i believe that tempest is nice Arty platform and not so nice Ac platform.

so my conclusion is maelstorm should be nice AC boat, but sadly its 1 too slow 2 too heavy 3 missing the essential bonuses to make good AC boat (read comparable to blastermega and btw now everyone must remember we are speaking tier 3 bs vs tier 2 before the whining starts)
decrease its PG so that it will be pain in the ass to try fit 8x1400mm t2s
ofc this should be doable with 2x rcu t2 and AWU lvl 5 coz ppl who have spended time to fit maelstorm to alpha should get their goodie at the end (wich is long way). and forgot the shield boost bonus give it falloff bonus instead (so it would be rof and falloff) decrease the locking range a bit, make it lighter and fastest BS with mwd there is. This would prevent many ppl using it with 1400mms and choose ACs instead, the resolution between ACpest and Artypest (artypest is better ofc) and the resolution between Artymael and ACmael would be close to the same (ACmael would be better here ofc)

Corey Grim
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:27:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Corey Grim on 23/11/2006 04:36:02
Okay so i still didnt answer the orginal question about Alpha i will answer it now:

lets assume that (im sry im not gonna count skills and all that im goin to easy way) 1400mm ROF in tempest pre-revelations would be 10 seconds,
what if we changed that ROF to 15 seconds instead and gave it 33.33% increase of damage? it would still be same DPS but increased Alpha, the fear of instapopping battleships in Fleetfights what seems to consern CCP/Tux would also be suprisingly slightly reduced coz of so low ROF in tempest. The alpha would still be lower in tempest than pre-revelations coz of the hp boost and hit and runs would be doable.

Considering/doing these Changes would give matar what they are after: not overpowered ships but ships that are roled towards one of the main 3 groups that matar ships are usually roled.

Karandor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:27:00 - [113]
 

Hurricane is still awesome. If you complain about a big brother to the rupture you're crazy.

Corey Grim
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:32:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Corey Grim on 23/11/2006 04:33:33
---- strange douple post ---

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.23 05:00:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Karandor
Hurricane is still awesome. If you complain about a big brother to the rupture you're crazy.


The reason it got nerfed was because if its tank and ability to gank. Well... we are 1 turret short and 50 pg lower and we still can gank and tank. But what we cannot do is put 7 turrets on our ship to make it the 720mm II platform the bonuses make it.

Now its going to be the 'better' autocannon ship as opposed to a arty and it STILL can tank more than it should. The problem with the Drake and the Hurricane stemmed from oversized plates/extenders which have a unchecked, unbalanced goahead nod to cruisers and battlecruisers.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.23 05:08:00 - [116]
 

I feel I should point out that mince meat is not ground beef. I has no place in a good burger.

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2006.11.23 06:06:00 - [117]
 

Hey, while we're talking about increasing battle times and such, are the ammo sizes or cargo bays going to be increased so people can carry enough sticks and stones to throw at each other? I would prefer lowering ammo sizes, so that guns and launchers can also hold more -- that way their DPS isn't nerfed quite as much due to reloading (and the weapons that don't need reloading or have the largest capacity don't become uber).

By the way, what's the deal with the Drake having the same cargo bay size as a Ferox (and less than even a Caracal)? Isn't the established trend that missile ships get more cargo? Whether that's a good or bad trend is another debate altogether, of course.

La Tortura
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.23 06:53:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Barrick Stormsworn


Concerning arty, the issue is range. Was just looking at Amarr BSs for the first time in QF and I can't hit my 150km+ goal in an Amarr BS. Their damage is intense (provided you're not hitting an EM/Thermal tanked opponent >_> ) but their range can't compare.



Are you sure? Have you compared them with new T2 ammo?

Quote:

There's no way in hell an Abaddon with AC is going to compare to a Tempest with AC, sorry.


800mm's+3xGyro T2.

Hawk Fireblade
Posted - 2006.11.23 07:49:00 - [119]
 

Edited by: Hawk Fireblade on 23/11/2006 07:55:05
Edited by: Hawk Fireblade on 23/11/2006 07:51:55
Tuxford it's utterly pointless fudging the combat system like this, while the ideas are worthwhile, they only become worthwhile IF your prepared to do a proper job and change the actual method of how ships move and their control, to make these changes work.

www.darkspace.net if you want to see a excellent example of strong space combat.

The changes needed and required are far more radical if this games to have a future.

Eve's combat has always been very lacking, in the early days this was negated alot because of the smaller playerbase, where you could actually have tactics and fun fights instead now all we have is lag blob fests, and it's really ticking the players off bigtime, you've already lost many many customers because of the lack of proper developement, and this needs to change.

Don't fudge it Fix it!

And when I say IT, I mean the design, don't bend a bad design scrap it and make a proper one that does the job correctly, and yes it's alotta work and pain, but longterm it's the best option.

Eve needs to stop being the Jack of all that does none very well, especially in core elements like combat as this game revolves around ships it needs to be it's strongest part not its weakest.

The other thing I would sugest is spooling off inactive accounts off the main database and storing them elsewhere, reinjecting them at a DT once that person resubscribes, to try aid the database some.

I don't know how much of a % of the database is just dead stuff but I suspect there's a big chunk there that doesn't need to be.


Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.23 08:24:00 - [120]
 

Arrow Tux

I like what you have done with the HP boosts and most other stuff implemented...

Regarding shipdesign I can only speak of the Rokh and Drake. Rokh seems to be spot on except for the many people fitting lots of NOS but the Drake seems not to fulfill it's role.

The Drake as it is now has the right powergrid - you cannot fit 6 HAM and 3 Large Shield Extender II's without having to use exceptional skills, fitting modules and leaving a few highslots empty. I am not fan of the kinetic bonus either, but I think we need the 7th launcher back, but without a powergrid increase...
Like the myrmodion the Drake will then have the opportunity to fit 7 launchers but it is not necesarily clever as you will have used up powergrid or slots needed for a solid tank.

Nos/neuts: I'd consider limiting the amount of utility slots on ships like the current turret/launcher slots so battleships won't be able to fit more than 1,2 or perhaps 3 nos/neuts on ships that is not designed for that kind of fitting...

Pinky


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