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Cadiz
Caldari
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:36:00 - [61]
 

I'm glad to see the original plan for +50% HP baseline increase on t1 ships has been toned down to +25%; it's a more reasonable amount. The capacitor boost is also good too - an Apocalypse with max skills will have some, what, 9375 capacitor after this? Shocked

As for the rest...well, eh, no particular comments there. People have already gone to hell and back over the petty details of ship balance on the Kali test board, so no point in repeating that.

Za Po
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:36:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Tasty Burger
So tux, you're basically saying that people who think the Hurricane isn't good anymore are idiots who can't fit a ship?

Way to alienate the playerbase, mate.
And people wonder why devs don't like reading the forums. Rolling Eyes

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:37:00 - [63]
 

Well at least with the Abaddon's bonus being changed the Amarr have something to offer now, I guess.

Alpha-strike fleet ship now, instead of crappier gankgeddon.

Cap ship HP boost is awesome though.

Also, WTF did you change the ROF bonus on the Drake but left the resist bonus? These new BCs are gank oriented, but you screwed the Drake pretty badly there. Both the Ferox and Drake have the same resist bonus, teh st00pid.

Isyel
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:38:00 - [64]
 

No this time it's the gallente leading the pack. Laughing

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:44:00 - [65]
 

I know that this is a ship-oriented blog, and that this question has probably been answered elsewhere... but here goes:

Will "Warp to 0" make it into the Revelations release on November 28th?

Thanks,
Paddlefoot

Ramblin Man
Empyreum
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:46:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Jak'ai
The plain fact is that you can't increase hitpoints on large ships enough to feel like large ships pounding on each other, because to do so you would render smaller ship classes unable to outdamage the tanking ability of anything larger than them.
Isn't that what Tuxford's blog was about - why they're going with a hitpoint increase instead of a TPS (tank) increase? In other words, they're gearing combat more towards inevitable death (DPS > TPS) as opposed to sustainable tanking (DPS < TPS).

Originally by: Jak'ai
Thus, showing up in a smaller ship renders you useless because destruction is the only metric by which you can measure success. Sooner or later I believe that the EVE combat system will need an overhaul. There isn't any more room on the damage curve for distinct ship classes (distinct identity being something that the new ships are struggling with IMO) and the whole system feels like it's being homogenized to a "my DPS is greater than yours - I win" contest.
The "destruction is the only metric by which you can measure success" point is valid, but Tuxford also made the point that the hitpoint boost/battle lengthening was a precursor to the eventual addressing of that problem. I think his point re: HEAT, etc., that "their impact is lessened if you don't have time to actually manage it," is equally valid. An HP boost gives more return than the addition of HEAT/subsystem targeting would right now. Furthermore, it's easier to code. Wink

Originally by: Jak'ai
Uncouple the ship classes from relying on the same damage scale, introduce incremental damage (i.e. you can destroy subsystems but maybe not be able to destroy a much larger ship completely) and start giving the ship classes unique abilities to differentiate them and give specialists a needed niche. IMO, that's the way things need to go sooner or later.
I'd have to agree with Tux's point that specializations don't matter as long as you live in a world in which a battle consists primarily of DPS vs. TPS. Change things around to a hitpoint buffer-based battle, and EWAR and other effect-over-time modules become a lot more useful.

I do wholeheartedly agree with the "destruction is the only metric by which you can measure success" point though (enough so that I reiterate it here). Until this changes, DPS-on-single-target is almost always going to be preferable to specialized ship usage (logistics, anyone?).

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:47:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: PCX339


Amarr have had a few issues for a while but you gotta love their tanks.


Raven/domi tank better.

Quote:

Some of the mid-range builds are still a lot better than dreaded Gallente short-range blaster builds though.



Mid range = not in scramble range = blaster warp away.

Close range = mid range not warping away.

Zhaine
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:50:00 - [68]
 

Good blog Tux.

Of course there's a lot of concerns people still have atm and I very much hope they're being adressed.

Some that sping to mind are people's dissatisfaction with the Hyperion, and possibly the Maelstrom (not been keeping up to speed so sorry if it got fixed ;p), Amarr damage types and faction frigs and cruisers seriously needing boosts. I'm hoping all these are recognised as issues and are being/going to be worked on :)

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:57:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Hakera on 22/11/2006 20:57:56
Muchos Appreciated Tux,

I agree with you on the hurricane, anyone who says its a bad ship needs to spend a few weeks running with it on TQ after it hits.

I have no intention to turn this thread into yet another drake discussion but everytime i pour over my own figures, a double missile bonus is far too much, not just in comparison to the other teir 2's but in the whole scale of things, the versitility of the drakes weapons across the ship classes, the slot layout all point to a sensible balance in the bonuses. The only way and this is fitting test dependant i would agree with a double bonus would not only be the ship bonus switch but a reduction in the ship hp's and sensor strength, but that is my own opinion.

Anyway back to the questions at hand,

1) Tackling modules - webs, scramblers, even with the capacitor increases, do you think that these should be tweaked, or even overhauled to class specific modules?

2) Will the aggression timers be changed? (the one minute non aggro disappear and the 20min aggro disappear)

3) NPCs, will their damage increase in proportion to the HP changes? As it stands, npc damage must increase by approximatly 15-25% inline with this change or you make ratting of all types too easy as the HP change is a PvP change rather than a PvE one

4) Sentry/Concord/Faction police damage - boosted inline with HP changes?

5) Any thoughts on destroyer sig radius (especially with mwd on) ?

6) Survey/Salvage specialised ship classes? - Kali 2?

7) faction class ships - more on the horizon for all the extra ship classes we have now since castor? Would sure be dandy for FW looming

8) POS damage - increase inline or other defence options becoming availible?

Thanks for your time.






Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:00:00 - [70]
 

NPC damage should not be boosted. Because active tanks are still the same and still tank the same amount of DPS.

Boosting it would mean that people could no longer tank them, and would need to run. The HP boost is simply a buffer.

Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:00:00 - [71]
 

Some stuff that popped to mind as I was reading:

1-Did the Harbinger get its RoF bonus back?

2-I find it funny that Tux sorta acknowledges that cap using weapons are going to be at a disadvantage, even if it probably wasn't a volontary admittal.

Tobias Raddick
Caldari
Raddick Explorations
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:01:00 - [72]
 

Dear Tuxford,
Thank you for taking the time to address the Eve-Online community with the lowdown on changes to warships and the rationale behind those changes. Personally, I like the idea of PvP taking longer. It's hard for anyone to call in reinforcements if the battle is over before you've locked your enemy, and for me my most memorable fights have been the ones that have lasted for a reasonable period of time.

TR

PS - You're quadrupling capship hitpoints if I read your blog right. Did I read it right?

Malthros Zenobia
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:05:00 - [73]
 

For the love of all that is holy, unholy and atheist, listen to the devs that say to give back the Drake's ROF bonus.Wink

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:06:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/11/2006 21:07:58

There is a lot of stuff I think people want answers too, but I guess you guys have a lot to do... maybe after Kali you can mention what you are discussing when it comes to alpha strikes, for example.

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:09:00 - [75]
 

On the topic of alphas, give the Maelstrom a damn damage bonus. Make it the alpha-strike king if it's supposed to be a fleet ship. Giving the Amarr their first damage bonus every and making that ship a better alpha striker than the Maelstrom is a little...wrong.

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:11:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Tasty Burger
NPC damage should not be boosted. Because active tanks are still the same and still tank the same amount of DPS.

Boosting it would mean that people could no longer tank them, and would need to run. The HP boost is simply a buffer.


yay and nay on my own opinions on that but they stem from more than a simple hp related boost. i generally think ratting is a little too easy, especially with passively tanked ships. Though it was more of a thought of risk vs reward, your still lowering the risk. Its an afterthought really of the extended effects of making ships harder to kill (when you at dont have 20 ships firing at you and the difference becomes marginal). I wouldnt personally be bothered either way on that, but overall asteroid/dyanmic encounter spawns, are very easy and too static, I have always wanted bigger potential dynamic spawns about which require groups to kill rather than your 3 bs + handful of cruisers spawn you get currently in -1.0's.

Probably more a TomB question though than ships & modules :)


Vim
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:27:00 - [77]
 

People have complaints about fitting a hurricane out o_O?
I realy dont see the problem with this beautiful ship as it stands now, given I realy have the latest stats at hand.
Ehm, great to get a bit of answears abouts whats going where.
Now, subsystem targeting and all that sure will be helped by a little more breathing room, lets just hope you have good toughts on this and we get to see it within the near future aka soon(tm).
Keep working and remove the shield resistance to drake for velocity, give it back the rof(or the last launcher) and keep us informed so we are happy puppies instead of whiney "you forgot to give us food" cats =)

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:32:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Godar Marak
Originally by: PCX339


Amarr have had a few issues for a while but you gotta love their tanks.


domi tank better.



How does a grid limited ship with less cap and less lowslots than, say, a Geddon, tank better?

duh.


Wrayeth
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:43:00 - [79]
 

Well, this blog has alleviated some of my fears about Kali. Not all, but some. This statement of intent finally put things in perspective, making sense of the hitpoint changes as more than just a nerf to small group and solo combat. I'm still not sure I agree, but at least I know where they're coming from now.

Ah, well.

Anyway, if there's still time before Kali, is there any chance you could do something about tech 2 torpedos to make them worth using?

Also, is there a chance that the sleipnir could lose a low for a mid to allow it to run a MWD and a scrambler without gimping its tank in comparison to the other field command ships?

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:54:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Cadiz
I'm glad to see the original plan for +50% HP baseline increase on t1 ships has been toned down to +25%; it's a more reasonable amount. The capacitor boost is also good too - an Apocalypse with max skills will have some, what, 9375 capacitor after this? Shocked

Looks like the relative % HP increase numbers in the blog are for the next increase in addition to the current 50%. (Look at Tux's reply on the first page of this thread)

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.22 22:18:00 - [81]
 

Thanks for doing this Tuxford - I know it's made me a lot happier.

Starting with a 25% increase does seem a lot more sensible, and I think the battlecruisers are mostly looking good now (although the ROF back would be nice ;))

I think people would still really like to hear about the 3 battleships that don't seem to offer much new though...



Missius
Posted - 2006.11.22 22:28:00 - [82]
 

I wonder how this is going to effect passive shield tanking. Anyone do any testing on this yet? With a 400% increase to capital HP it might make passive tanking an option for caldari capital ships.

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2006.11.22 22:39:00 - [83]
 

I think the sentry guns do need a little love. Prior to the drake nerf I was tanking a few of them (and a billboard Laughing) without too many problems. Granted, thats no longer really possible with a drake--at least, not that I'm aware--but with rigs and the HP boost they do become a lot more tankable, not less.

I'm not saying they should be able to toast everything and not be tanked; just that they should be boosted inline with everything else.

Concord, btw, toasted that pre-nerf drake build in under 30s. They're still kings of dps.

Viga Skuld
Caldari
Raptus Regaliter
Posted - 2006.11.22 22:59:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Missius
I wonder how this is going to effect passive shield tanking. Anyone do any testing on this yet? With a 400% increase to capital HP it might make passive tanking an option for caldari capital ships.


Are the capital ships geting 400% HP bonus or not ?

Omni Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.22 23:12:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Omni Chaos on 22/11/2006 23:13:38
Edited by: Omni Chaos on 22/11/2006 23:13:18
Originally by: Viga Skuld
Originally by: Missius
I wonder how this is going to effect passive shield tanking. Anyone do any testing on this yet? With a 400% increase to capital HP it might make passive tanking an option for caldari capital ships.


Are the capital ships geting 400% HP bonus or not ?


TUX wrote-
"The shield recharge rate, capacitor capacitance and recharge time are all increased by 25%, as well as plates and extenders, and cap boosters (not 50%). Capital ships would still get a 400% hitpoint increase. Cap booster volume decreased by 20% (not 30%)."

Bishop 5
Gallente
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.22 23:37:00 - [86]
 

Good blog, enjoyed reading it.

Could have been longer, but I guess you're busy drinking beer, throwing things at other things and 'discussing' changes.


Matori Kar
Caldari
SlightlyAnnoyingGitCorp
Posted - 2006.11.22 23:42:00 - [87]
 

Drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones, drones.

Erm, what about drones? you know, those things that are PRIMARY but destroyable weapons on several ships, come on, you remember! think hard!!

Celestoid
Gallente
Celestial Pleasures
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:02:00 - [88]
 

I have a question - the blog mentioned that "Capital ships would still get a 400% hitpoint increase" - what about POSs? Won't this have a big impact on the investment (meaning losses) required to take a POS down?

Oedus Caro
Caldari
Cross Roads
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:13:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Soyemia
...nerfing hurricane was not a good idea! It did one thing well, AC's, but now its semi crappy hybrid like cyclone, and myrmidon is going to be horribly overpowered, with damage output of BS, its gonna pwn all other BC's and prolly some BS's.

Welcome to play caldari and gallente online, I just started training for gallente.

Sure play gallente and caldari if you like, just don't be upset when I waste your ass in a hurricane.


See... now that's why I love these devs... in a totally non-fruity way, I would add. Laughing

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:21:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Missius
I wonder how this is going to effect passive shield tanking. Anyone do any testing on this yet? With a 400% increase to capital HP it might make passive tanking an option for caldari capital ships.


Not a chance - unless they release capital sized shield expanders.


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