open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked Band of Bloggers #42, Tuxford's This and That
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8

Author Topic

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:01:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Adam C
havent read all of the post yet

my question is: not all ships get a hp boost (like interceptors for example)?

excellent blog


it says that "Tech 2 cruisers and frigates get 12.5% increase" so inties get a 12.5% increase

Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:02:00 - [32]
 

If you are shooting for increasing combat time by around 50%, you should also either decrease the size of ammo and drones, or increase the ammo capacity of the guns and drone bays. Longer combat means you're going to run out of those things a lot more often, and typically drones are fairly quick to die...so droners are even more out of luck than the typical turret user.

Jak'ai
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:08:00 - [33]
 

Meh - still don't agree with the hitpoint boost, but not my call is it?

For the record, I think that the flat boost to hitpoints in the combat system as it stands is going to obsolete smaller ships before it has any noticible impact on the feel of battleship calibre fights.

The plain fact is that you can't increase hitpoints on large ships enough to feel like large ships pounding on each other, because to do so you would render smaller ship classes unable to outdamage the tanking ability of anything larger than them. Thus, showing up in a smaller ship renders you useless because destruction is the only metric by which you can measure success.

Sooner or later I believe that the EVE combat system will need an overhaul. There isn't any more room on the damage curve for distinct ship classes (distinct identity being something that the new ships are struggling with IMO) and the whole system feels like it's being homogenized to a "my DPS is greater than yours - I win" contest.

Uncouple the ship classes from relying on the same damage scale, introduce incremental damage (i.e. you can destroy subsystems but maybe not be able to destroy a much larger ship completely) and start giving the ship classes unique abilities to differentiate them and give specialists a needed niche. IMO, that's the way things need to go sooner or later.

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Laendra
If you are shooting for increasing combat time by around 50%, you should also either decrease the size of ammo and drones, or increase the ammo capacity of the guns and drone bays. Longer combat means you're going to run out of those things a lot more often, and typically drones are fairly quick to die...so droners are even more out of luck than the typical turret user.


I would kind of have to agree, although they are getting bonuses as well as I understand it, so they will last longer however in longer combates drones will probably become a bigger target. This will need some testing. But maybe in Kali those would could only hold 5 meduim drones will have to hold 10 small instead, because they will last longer in the fight, or manage thier drones alot better, ie once they see one take the slightest damage bay it so the ememy loses it lock than send it back in.

Alex Tremayne
Gallente
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:09:00 - [35]
 

For crying out loud.

Lots of nice stuff on all the ships people have concerns about. Apart from the Hyperion.

Would you please address the problems people have raised in the many, many threads about the Hyperion's role when placed alongside the Megathron and the need for it to have some kind of identity and purpose of it's own?

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:12:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Tuxford

As a bunch of us are in a bit of a christmassy kind of mood, we are contemplating giving the Drake its launcher rate of fire bonus back and by contemplating I mean discussing and by discussing I mean throwing various oddly shaped objects at each other.



Would bribe offers help? I know a nice company that sends chocolate places, although I'm not entirely sure if iceland is on the list ... ;p

Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:15:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Jet Collins
Originally by: Laendra
If you are shooting for increasing combat time by around 50%, you should also either decrease the size of ammo and drones, or increase the ammo capacity of the guns and drone bays. Longer combat means you're going to run out of those things a lot more often, and typically drones are fairly quick to die...so droners are even more out of luck than the typical turret user.


I would kind of have to agree, although they are getting bonuses as well as I understand it, so they will last longer however in longer combates drones will probably become a bigger target. This will need some testing. But maybe in Kali those would could only hold 5 meduim drones will have to hold 10 small instead, because they will last longer in the fight, or manage thier drones alot better, ie once they see one take the slightest damage bay it so the ememy loses it lock than send it back in.


Laughing, I can just imagine telling a projectile weapon user to not fire their guns because their ship was taking damage, kind of the same thing, no? I hope they take this into account, if not with Kali 1, then Kali 2 or a patch between the 2 releases.

darkmancer
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:17:00 - [38]
 

Putting aside the arguement about how long capacitors will last after revalations with the 50% recharge increase there's another problem thats exacerbated.

Not exactly game breaking but one of the most irritating parts of the game is waiting for you capacitor to recharge. 40% to 80% fine it recharges quite happily, however for the last 20% you either have to think stuff it and go, or die of old age. With the increase in cap recharge time this is going to get worse. My children will be dieing of old age by the time it regens!! Could you introduce a minimum amount of cap regen/sec.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:19:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 22/11/2006 19:21:37
Originally by: St Dragon


Lol have you not even bothreed to read the dev blog He said he was doing it so that Subsystem targeting and heat would work Rolling Eyes



Yes?


Amarr is still F****D, and fights lasting longer is just going in increase the disadvantage of energy weapons.

Lasting longer in pvp, wasnt there a hitpoint increase in RMR? Hit point increase, why? In fleet combat it wont matter.
As for piracy it will mean that 'not so clever' people will survive longer and have more time to ask their 'not so clever' friends to save them.


Its a big, massive nerf to pirace and guerilla tactics.


Tasty Burger
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:21:00 - [40]
 

So tux, you're basically saying that people who think the Hurricane isn't good anymore are idiots who can't fit a ship?

Way to alienate the playerbase, mate.

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:26:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tasty Burger
So tux, you're basically saying that people who think the Hurricane isn't good anymore are idiots who can't fit a ship?

Way to alienate the playerbase, mate.

Oh come on. Take a joke.

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:34:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
i see you picked the prophecy and cyclone for your example. thos two ships are pretty special because the one that has to use cap to fire its guns actually has a significant cap advantage. unfortunately thats not the case for most ships.

lets try two others: geddon vs typhoon (domi vs typhoon works jsut as well)
on tq right now:
geddon: 4250cap/870sec
typhoon: 4000cap/870sec

on tq the geddon has 250 more base cap and a slightly better recharge rate because of it. thats pretty messed up to start with but also a pretty good example of the cap difference between ships that use cap to fire their weapons and those that do not.

now we get the hp-boost. fights will last longer and the geddon wll be much more at risk to run out of cap during the fight than the typhoon.

now comes the cap boost. on sisi its 50% atm and leaves us with this:

geddon: 6375cap/1305sec +2125cap
typhoon: 6000cap/1305sec +2000cap

the geddon now has an amazing 375 more base cap and again a slightly better recharge rate. thats 6.25% more base cap than the typhoon. apparently the typhoon needs 2000 more base cap to tank longer now. while it does this it can also fire its guns.

so lets see how the geddon fares. if we give the geddon those same 2000 more base cap to tank longer we are left with a meager 125 more base cap to fire its guns for the longer duration of the fight.


supposedly ammo using weapons get a reduction in ammo size to allow them to carry more ammo for the longer fights. lasers/hybrids use cap as their ammo. now why do we not get a better increase in capacitor than projectile/missile/droneships?

i see that you reduced cap-booster size. are cap boosters now a requirement for all laser/hybrid ships? will you add another medslot for those ships so we can actually fit them? or maybe add a midslot module thats needed to reload projectile weapons/missiles to restore the balance there?




Lasers and hybrids do more DPS than projectiles and missles. You can fit weapon upgrades to compensate for projectiles and missles, and you can fit cprs/cap rechargers to compensate for hybrids and lasers. Its pretty balanced in that regard imho.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:43:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Azerrad InExile

Lasers and hybrids do more DPS than projectiles and missles. You can fit weapon upgrades to compensate for projectiles and missles, and you can fit cprs/cap rechargers to compensate for hybrids and lasers. Its pretty balanced in that regard imho.


assuming for a moment that ships with cap using weapons (A) and those with zero-cap weapons (B) were perfectly balanced against each other:

- you increase the fight duration
- B now needs more ammo to fire longer -> decrease ammo size
- A now needs more cap to fire longer -> increase cap or reduce weapon cap consumption
- both need cap to tank

what tux is doing is equally adding cap for both A and B and thereby shifting balance towards ships that dont need cap to fire their guns. so even if ships/weapons were perfectly balanced against each other now that would no longer be the case after those changes.


Pesadel0
the muppets
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:44:00 - [44]
 

Basically the galente whined the myrmydon got their boost,the caldari whined got the boost to their drake,minmatar whined and they were told to learn to play .


Why am not surprised.



Tehyarec
Silverleaf Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:49:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Tehyarec on 22/11/2006 19:52:40
About Drake vs Myrmidon (haven't paid that much attention to Hurricane and the Amarr thingamajig to comment too much).

People say Drake is now nerfed into obvilion, and Myrmidon is overpowered. Hardly. Sure, the Myrmidon gets 5 heavies, and thus the damage output of a drones-only Dominix. It also gets to die faster than the Dominix. Also consider that a Drake with 6 launchers can probably instapop a heavy drone with one salvo. Five salvos, and the Myrmi has no drones -> no damage. Given the time it takes to kill a Drake, the Myrmi's drones are dead before it can do anything to the Drake.

Meanwhile, the Drake doesn't need to use ANY cap to tank & do damage, so it's impervious to nos and such often used by drone ships. Sure, the Myrmi can fit some blasters, but it won't be enough to beat the Drake.

So. What exactly makes the Myrmi overpowered compared to the Drake? If you complain about the possibility of 5 heavies, you've obviously never used drones much. Also if the Myrmi uses heavy drones, it won't be able to kill inties and such.

EDIT: Should also point out that the Drake has no fitting difficulties whatsoever the last time I checked, while Myrmi isn't that easy. And also the Drake is still way better for missiles than the Ferox, and people seem to happily use a Ferox now. So again, what's the problem?

Verus Potestas
Caldari
SP4RTANS
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:54:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Verus Potestas on 22/11/2006 20:11:26
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Soyemia
...nerfing hurricane was not a good idea! It did one thing well, AC's, but now its semi crappy hybrid like cyclone, and myrmidon is going to be horribly overpowered, with damage output of BS, its gonna pwn all other BC's and prolly some BS's.

Welcome to play caldari and gallente online, I just started training for gallente.

Sure play gallente and caldari if you like, just don't be upset when I waste your ass in a hurricane.


I don't deny the Hurricane is a good ship, but I'd appreciate you having a gander at this

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:55:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 22/11/2006 19:57:58
So instead of explaining the Hurricane logic, we are told to 'get a clue!'

Come on Tux!?

Just because it can win a fight does not mean its sufficient.

P.S. with increased cap, the cap use/AU for warp needs to be increased as well.

Tanya Kovacs
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:59:00 - [48]
 

Will/are Javelin-HAMs be nerfed until release? It's a bit strange to nerf Javelin-Torps and introducing a new uber-missile with same patch.

Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:59:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Imhotep Khem


Just because it can win a fight does not mean its sufficient.




Theoretically an Omen could win a fight against another (non Amarr)pvp cruiser....so yeah it is sufficient.

Kala Veijo
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.22 19:59:00 - [50]
 

Allthought Drake isnt the solopwn mobile i wanted, im going thank you for Heavy assault missiles <3. They make my Caracal happy \o/

Lucian Corvinus
Gallente
Expert Systems
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:01:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Imhotep Khem

P.S. with increased cap, the cap use/AU for warp needs to be increased as well.


NNNNOooooOOooo don't you dare, this might mean that the buzzard can actually cross a 60 AU system in one go Shocked

Pham Sirge
VersaTech Interstellar Ltd.
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:05:00 - [52]
 

Hi all,

I personally have many points I feel "iffy" over but...

I've decided to stay out of evecraft until I have a week of kali under my belt (I am swearing off the test server also).

Iím just so over all this crap, Its obvious Tux has a "master plan" (notice I didnt say it was a good plan) and Iíve given up trying to work out if it good or not.

This entire thing makes my head hurt. I figured this thing would go pear shaped when every backseat drive saw a way to "grab the wheel" but I never guessed at the quantity of people who gained degrees in full blown bullplop(I, myself kinda got caught up also).

Eve has me addicted, I love it, Its kiddie(ok ok 24 year old) crack. I was much happier when I spent all my time in game rather than impulsively reading every single ill conceived, biased, flame based posts.

Kali better launch on 28th because Iím going to go full blown nuts otherwise. I donít care if its got telly tubbies for spaceships let the forum combat end.

,
<VTIL> Pham Sirge

Steelhound
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:17:00 - [53]
 

I'm a little disturbed by the fact that you didn't say a single thing about the ship which could be described as the Megathron's ******ed twin brother. I speak of course of the Hyperion. A massive ruckus has been noted on the boards where it is pointed out that although the Hyperion's stated role is as a blaster specialist, it is no better at it than the Megathron, and it is worse at sniping, AND is almost twice as expensive to boot. That the Hyperion needs serious tweaking to make it worth its pricetag seems to be the concensus on the boards

Syrann
The Praxis Initiative
FREGE Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:23:00 - [54]
 

Can you say whether or not these numbers are factual or hypothetical:

Quote:

* Tech 1 battleships, cruisers and frigates get 25% increase
* Tech 2 cruisers and frigates get 12.5% increase
* Tech 1 Destroyers get a 66.67% increase
* Tech 2 Destroyers get a 33.33% increase
* Tech 1 Battlecruisers get 56.25% increase
* Tech 2 Battlecruisers get 28.125% increase





PCX339
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:24:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: PCX339 on 22/11/2006 20:25:53
Edited by: PCX339 on 22/11/2006 20:25:25
My 2 cents on the whine-tasting....

Arrow"Myrmidon will do BS damage!" - Baloney. You're probably thinking of a Myrmidon setup with 5 heavies compared to a dominix. A Myrmidon with 5 heavies is dumb, if he attacks you shoot his drones and you'll win. Even if somehow he manages to keep his drones alive by sucking them in repeatedly he shouldn't do nearly the damage of a good Dominix build. Dominix's get LARGE GUNS and bonus'. A blasterdomi can do insane DPS while running a tank as well. Myrmidon is great for PvE with 5 heavies, otherwise should run in gangs with smaller drones.

Arrow"Amarr got the shaft" - Kind of. After the changes recently I don't think anybody but Caldari got unbalancing boosts from the new ship designs. Amarr have had a few issues for a while but you gotta love their tanks. Some of the mid-range builds are still a lot better than dreaded Gallente short-range blaster builds though. The tank also lets you grind the opponent very effectively. Maybe that's Tux's favorite method :)

Arrow"Hyperion sucks" - I can't argue with this one. Unless the agility/mass/speed gets upgraded to truly spectacular I will probably only fly this for random giggles. Costs a lot more than a Megathron and, while different, is not really better or distinctive. Being a dev must be hard... I guess they couldn't really think of anything cool for a third Gallente category. I think the Sensor damp BS idea some have mentioned is cool, but could be overpowered.

Arrow"Drake got too nerfed." - We all know this is silly. The Drake was a total freaking monster before. It kinda still is with good skills, although not more than the Brutix so I guess that's okay. It's not the total PWN anymore but some builds are still darned scary. Try putting some Inertial stabs in the lows and orbiting your target really fast, turrets can't hit you at all while your missiles still never miss, call it the mega-crow. Twisted Evil Some creative Drake builds are still terrifying and have no obvious counter.

I have put my Thanksgiving turkey on my computer so please commence flaming me, I want it well done. Cool



La Tortura
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:26:00 - [56]
 

Now Abaddon has the same alphastrike as Tempest and just a tiny bit less than Maelstrim. That's with more hp, more resistances, better tracking etc. Any reason left why we should use Minmatar BS's with arty then?

With AC's abaddon has dps similar to AC pest. And again with overall better tank. Any reason left to use Minmatar BS's with AC's?

Dorah Hawkwing
Old Galactic Earth Regiment
Dragoon Federation
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:28:00 - [57]
 

\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!
\o/ for destroyer HP increase!

I love destroyers, but up to now their staying power had beena tad low coupled with their big signature. The HP boost though should make them more capable of bringing their firepower to bear before they go pop.

Isyel
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:29:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: La Tortura
Now Abaddon has the same alphastrike as Tempest and just a tiny bit less than Maelstrim. That's with more hp, more resistances, better tracking etc. Any reason left why we should use Minmatar BS's with arty then?

With AC's abaddon has dps similar to AC pest. And again with overall better tank. Any reason left to use Minmatar BS's with AC's?



No. Crying or Very sad

Namo Iluvatar
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:31:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Namo Iluvatar on 22/11/2006 20:57:46
well, i must say that i'm happy with the idea of T1 ships getting an increase in HP... especially the huge boost for destroyers as they die way to easily IMO.

as for T2 ships... i think they should get an equally large boost if not more than what T1 is getting. after all... they are T2 and should be better. by not giving them as big of a boost you basically close the gap on the advantage a T2 ship has over a T1 ship. and in a way this could be interpreted as your way of saying that you feel the current T2 ships are too powerful over T1 ships. am i wrong in thinking this?

i can fly quite a few T2 ships but rarely do because for the cost they rarely offer enough advantage compared to the incurred expense. not to mention the complete lack of being able to insure them worth a darn! Evil or Very Mad (now T2 components on the other hand... Twisted Evil) and now it looks like the advantage of a T2 ship over a T1 ship is being closed even further. why should i spend 20x the cost of a T1 ship to buy T2 ships again? (because 20 T1 ships will generally speeking slaughter that one T2 ship... assuming you have the pilots to fly them. can you say Goon Fleet?)

The only problem i see that could possibly explain this is that there are people who already complain about T2 battlecruisers having near battleship hitpoints. if that's the case... then why not just give battlehsip an even bigger boost than they are slated for? you are already justifying all the other increases to prolong combat... why not make battleships a healthy distance above the other ships. Capitol ships are making a huge breakaway from the pack... why not help bridge that a little bit by pushing battleships out there a bit too? (not to mention it might make the energized regenerative membrane be an item that gets used on more than just capitol ships)

i guess the short question is if everything else is being pushed up proportionatly in the name of makeing combat last longer and not makeing tanks unbreakable... why is the gap between T1 and T2 being closed? Confused


ArrowEdit: oh yeah... i forgot to ask about structure. with all these boosts, will structure get any love? will it be that once your ship looses shields and armor she just goes pop? (relative to how long it took to chew through the rest of the ship) Not that i structure tank, but i've walk away from a combat being into structure before and every little bit helps. (I love my DCU)

darkmancer
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:33:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: darkmancer on 22/11/2006 20:40:55
Wasn't long before the super whinging started. The fact that your bc's have been nerfed has nothing what so ever to do with the caldari. What the caldari are whineing about is that tux said we we're getting a ship more gank than tank, and yet we're getting another brick to go with our other line up of bricks (that and the kentetic only thing). Most (including me) have said they want to lose the 5% resist for the increased gank. A far more reasonable approch to the wah! wah! wah! Ours is crap, Caladri are the uber, than everyone else seems to take.

The Caldari have little say in our own ship stats, nevermind yours. Stop blamming us.

Feel free to post backed up opinions with sensible alternatives. If your whineing for the sake of whineing STFU.

Edit
I started i writing this post then had to do a job before posting it. Several people have posted some fairly sensible stuff inbetween. Sentiments still remain though.


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only