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James Saumerez
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:42:00 - [1]
 

I know this question has been asked and answered here but a corp-mate in game seems to think the Hulk is much better for mining even in high sec than the covetor.

I realize the Hulk is more efficient but I thought it was a slight bit more efficient and a lot sturdier. Hence it is the better choice for low sec mining but the cost is too high to justify it in high sec.

Am I wrong?


Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:52:00 - [2]
 

Well, if you've got ISK to burn, you WILL pay back the price of the covetor.....eventually. But really, especially if you're not expecting to lose it, you don't have to think of it as having to pay back the amount, because at the end of the day you can resell it for about the same price (ideally).

So, to answer your question. Yes, the Covetor is MUCH cheaper, and mines a little bit less. And sure, the Hulk is far more useful in 0.0 so you can tank spawns, but it's not too bad in high-sec either. You just don't have to use the tank at all.

Egil Kolsto
Caldari
Collwood Collective
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:57:00 - [3]
 

Pretty much, the short reply is a Hulk can fit one more Mining Upgrade module. Thats where the benefit lies. There is no such thing as "too-high cost" to fly in high-sec. Like the poster said below you, since you do not expect to loose it, look at the 500M as a damage deposit. You get it refunded when you sell it and the longer you use it the better the pay off is, from that ONE mining upgrade =P

Safe flying.

JoeT
Amarr
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:09:00 - [4]
 

turn on gist a-type small sheild booster + sheild hardener, rats will never kill you :)

Singularity XX
Caldari
Foundation
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: JoeT
turn on gist a-type small sheild booster + sheild hardener, rats will never kill you :)


also remember the solid cap skills :) even with the gistii a-type the hardners + they **** the cap of a hulk with no cap skills (aka my alt hehe). Not to mention the 120 (t2 stripers -- mmm anyway...) cap needed per laser. However in high-sec there is NO NEED of a tank. If my retriver can mine in .5 sec a hulk can do so even easier. The drones (drone interfacing 3) make quick work of any rats. Pft why tank when u can easilly kill and make some extra (ahem... pocket change) money.

Charok
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:22:00 - [6]
 

This is more up to you.

The hulk can mine 20.75% more then a corv. (15% from the hulk and 5% from the extra mining upgrade.)
So you will make up the extra price at some point.

Other factors that make a Hulk worth while in highsec is you are in something that will be hard to kill before concord shows up to protect you, you have more mid slots for an afterburner or better tank. You have more space in your hold if you need to scoop up your can before someone steals it.

One more thing if you plan to move to lowsec then getting the hulk as soon as you can is worth it.

Singularity XX
Caldari
Foundation
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:29:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Singularity XX on 21/11/2006 18:31:06
Originally by: Charok
This is more up to you.
One more thing if you plan to move to lowsec then getting the hulk as soon as you can is worth it.



I'd say the hulk is an expensive toy for low-sec. Unless you have all gates in the system camped by friendlies it can be an expensive thing to lose, to the tune of 600+ mil. If you ask me covetor will do you just as well mining wise + BS tanking. However this requires 3 characters to mine -- BS (tank), covetor, industrial. If you lose the covetor, well no big loss say 50 mil (I don't remember how much it cost me to buy one). That's 2-3 hours worth of crokite mining, and 6-7 of other stuff (I think). You do the math for a hulk (EEEK!).

EDIT -- ah the tanker too... if you lose that that's 250mil (my raven cost me about 200mil full t2 and what not). So much more managable then a hulk. My 2 isk if you've got the wallet go ahead!

James Saumerez
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:06:00 - [8]
 

Ok the 20.75% is something to think about.

If a covetor can do 4 million an hour then the Hulk would do 4,830,000 an hour.

830,000 an hour increase.

A hulk can be had for about 500 million and I think a covetor for around 60?. 440 million difference which you would recoop at a rate of 830,000 an hour.

That is approximately 530 hours to make up the difference. That is a LOT of mining. 26.5 weeks if you played 20 hours a week and did nothing but mine non stop.

That is a daunting prospect to me.

On the other hand I already have a covetor and a lot of money lying around doing me no good. If the price of Hulks keeps going up I may regret not having bought one now.

I appreciate the input. I am probably going to buy a Hulk while I can afford it. I suspect it is a good investment even though it is long term.

JoeT
Amarr
Quantum Horizons
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:12:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Singularity XX
Originally by: JoeT
turn on gist a-type small sheild booster + sheild hardener, rats will never kill you :)


also remember the solid cap skills :) even with the gistii a-type the hardners + they **** the cap of a hulk with no cap skills (aka my alt hehe). Not to mention the 120 (t2 stripers -- mmm anyway...) cap needed per laser. However in high-sec there is NO NEED of a tank. If my retriver can mine in .5 sec a hulk can do so even easier. The drones (drone interfacing 3) make quick work of any rats. Pft why tank when u can easilly kill and make some extra (ahem... pocket change) money.


lets say i had an accident once, but my alt can run it all forever boosting 57sheilds / 2secs with 70% res all around.

Dark Shikari
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:14:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: James Saumerez
Ok the 20.75% is something to think about.

If a covetor can do 4 million an hour then the Hulk would do 4,830,000 an hour.

830,000 an hour increase.

A hulk can be had for about 500 million and I think a covetor for around 60?. 440 million difference which you would recoop at a rate of 830,000 an hour.

That is approximately 530 hours to make up the difference. That is a LOT of mining. 26.5 weeks if you played 20 hours a week and did nothing but mine non stop.

That is a daunting prospect to me.

On the other hand I already have a covetor and a lot of money lying around doing me no good. If the price of Hulks keeps going up I may regret not having bought one now.

I appreciate the input. I am probably going to buy a Hulk while I can afford it. I suspect it is a good investment even though it is long term.

On the other hand, you can always sell the hulk for nearly its original value.

Plus, in 0.0, the payback time is drastically shorter.

Charok
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:32:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Singularity XX
Edited by: Singularity XX on 21/11/2006 18:31:06
Originally by: Charok
This is more up to you.
One more thing if you plan to move to lowsec then getting the hulk as soon as you can is worth it.



I'd say the hulk is an expensive toy for low-sec. Unless you have all gates in the system camped by friendlies it can be an expensive thing to lose, to the tune of 600+ mil. If you ask me covetor will do you just as well mining wise + BS tanking. However this requires 3 characters to mine -- BS (tank), covetor, industrial. If you lose the covetor, well no big loss say 50 mil (I don't remember how much it cost me to buy one). That's 2-3 hours worth of crokite mining, and 6-7 of other stuff (I think). You do the math for a hulk (EEEK!).

EDIT -- ah the tanker too... if you lose that that's 250mil (my raven cost me about 200mil full t2 and what not). So much more managable then a hulk. My 2 isk if you've got the wallet go ahead!


I wasn't meaning takeing it to a 0.4 system by its self.
No ship is safe alone in lowsec regardless of what its fitted with or type.
I was more speaking of joining an aliance or getting in a lowsec corp.

Singularity XX
Caldari
Foundation
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2006.11.21 20:23:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Singularity XX on 21/11/2006 20:33:30
I'm more of a lone miner. Which is what (I believe) the hulk is meant to do. I'd only feel "safe" (lol @ safe in 0.0) when docked or inside POS shields with no dreads in the system or comming :D -- O.o offline and non-aggressed :D but at that point you're not playing are u :) -- reminds me of people logging off when they're gonna get poded and when they log back in they end up in empire Twisted Evil). But enough about that. If you have 10 people in the gang I MIGHT feel safe ex: 5 people guarding the gate for any intruders (assuming it's only 1 gate) 1 tank for rats me + miners and a EW ship and needed idustrials. The gate ppl would delay the hostile gang the EW ship would annoy any inty that slips through. And even then I'm skiddish. I've been in 30+ ppl roaming gangs.

EDIT -- 70% resistances aren't that great but of course we could be thinking of COMPLETELY different situations. I'm thinking javeling throwing BSes (800k+ they start hurting). As for cap well I haven't tested this on a character that has cap skills so I'm not sure of the cap usage so I'll take your word for it. Expensive... worth it? That's up to you. This perticular biomass says not in low-sec. Fly what you can afford to lose.

coolzero
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.21 21:03:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: coolzero on 21/11/2006 21:05:13
Quote:
The point of this thread was to explain how the mining system works so you can all better understand. Use the equations and modify them to reflect your own needs.

Summarizing the mathematical figures:
. retriever with rough skills will mine 565 ore/minute
. covetor with good skills will mine 1188 ore/minute
. uber miner in a Hulk will 1732 ore/minute alone without any tank.

In ISK, again, using Bistot (9000pu):
. retriever will mine about 30mil per hour
. covetor with good skills will mine about 64mil per hour
. uber miner in a Hulk will mine about 93mil per hour.

Remember the drones ?
T2 Drones: 15 extra bistot per minute (3 per drone), or 900 per hour, is an extra 8.1mil per hour.

Harvester Drones: 20 extra bistot per minute (4 per drone), or 1200 per hour, is an extra 10.8mil per hour.

We’re talking a lot of ISK here, especially for very little work (transfer ore in can) and attention to local for any incomings. A Hulk is the bomb, the uber godsend for miners. If you have two accounts, you can now use the 2nd one to haul as your Hulk tanks , making it much more productive. Three accounts is even better, where the Hulk tanks, the 2nd haul and the 3rd either rats or has a BC idling in the system with a Link. It’s a lot of ISK investment, but if you’re serious about mining, you’ll make it back in no time, and you’ll become a billionaire soon enough.



miners guide

Shadarle
Posted - 2006.11.22 01:51:00 - [14]
 

So far it doesn't seem anyone in this thread is looking at this from a semi-afk miner's perspective.

The Hulk provides a LOT more tanking, which means you don't have to be actively at the computer all the time. You can be afk for a few mins without losing your ship (for .5 systems this is a big deal).

Then if you realize that you can make far more than 4-5 mil/hour if you do Omber mission mining you will find the hulk pays off much faster as well.

Tunajuice
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.11.22 07:43:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tunajuice on 24/11/2006 04:37:09
-wrong info, see correction below-

Taketa De
Gallente
Seneca Federation
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.22 08:56:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tunajuice
A hulk isn't an extra 20% increase over a cov IIRC.


You're remembering wrong.

Quote:

Say your base mine with a cov is X.. then you have + 20% from this, +15% from that.. for a total of a +100% yield.

You hulk has a little more pluses.. so you get a +120% yield.

So the hulk is 320/300 = 6.67% better.

Not exact numbers.. but I don't think a hulk gets a full 20% better yield. That is a LOT of time to make up for mining empire garbage.


If you want to try to make a post and say others are wrong, use actual math or actual numbers. You're not using either. In a post above there is a link to the mining guid that show's it's 20%.

Now to your math... what do you think +120% even means? Without further context it would mean you'd end up at 220%, so I have absolutely no idea of how you arrive at your 320/300, but you should probably think about what you have posted again.

Linda Duane
Gallente
Bluestar Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.22 11:58:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Linda Duane on 22/11/2006 12:11:09
Edited by: Linda Duane on 22/11/2006 12:00:20
Originally by: Taketa De
Originally by: Tunajuice
Say your base mine with a cov is X.. then you have + 20% from this, +15% from that.. for a total of a +100% yield.

You hulk has a little more pluses.. so you get a +120% yield.

So the hulk is 320/300 = 6.67% better.

Not exact numbers.. but I don't think a hulk gets a full 20% better yield. That is a LOT of time to make up for mining empire garbage.


If you want to try to make a post and say others are wrong, use actual math or actual numbers. You're not using either. In a post above there is a link to the mining guid that show's it's 20%.

Now to your math... what do you think +120% even means? Without further context it would mean you'd end up at 220%, so I have absolutely no idea of how you arrive at your 320/300, but you should probably think about what you have posted again.


To answer the question with logic:
Hm.. what can a hulk fit/use on skills, a covetor can't?
- Exhumer Skill => Factor 1.15 to yield
- one more Mining upgrade than cov => Factor 1.05

So you get a 1.2075 (=20.75%) better yield than a cov, if the rest of the fittings/skills/imps/links aso.. is equal for a fair comparison (and it's even true if you're only using miner 1's on them ;) ).

Aside from the naked numbers:
When the hulk pays itself of, depends on what you (by yourself) compare with each other.. security, ore/min, afk'ing, aso...

If I (by myself) compare in _high_ sec a expected ratio of vessel-value hulk/cov of 1000/100 = 10 and do then compare that the mined ore-value hulk/cov gives 120/100 = 1.2, a hulk doesn't compete in empire with a cov as for what, _how much_ and where I mine, IMHO.

For the naked numbers this changes when those 20% comes in the range of the value of a hulk.. so for an example, when you compare both ships side by side mining the vessel-value of a hulk, a cov needs 6 such minings bevore it mined the same amount as 5 times mining with a hulk brought.

In high sec with omber _FOR ME_ we're speaking about 311 hours (6x 350m / 2.8m x 25mins / 60mins/hour) of pure, break-free omber mining (hulk price 350m, omber price 2.8m per jetcan, 25mins per jetcan)... hehe. So, for me, it really doesn't pay off.

Greetz
Linda

Lowlink
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:27:00 - [18]
 

From a financial stand point, it doesn't make a lot of sense to get into a hulk if you're only mining in high sec space. I personally split time between low sec and high sec (no 0.0 yet). Additionally, I consider myself to be a miner and my goal is to be a maxed out miner... with that in mind I purchased a hulk; financial sense be damned. ;)

Shardrael
Caldari
The Fimbriani
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.11.23 01:35:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Shardrael on 23/11/2006 01:36:36
if your in 0.0 this is not even a question, you have two options, get one or get one faster.

in low sec..... honestly with how good the 0.0 mining is I dont know why people mine low sec, thar be pirates thereYARRRR!! but if your gonna low sec mine and the system is not completely secure(no idea how it would be secure in low sec)then you are better off in an insured tech 1 covetor with tech 1 miners; because your profit is not that outstanding in the grand scheme of things so loosing a fully tech 2 kitted covetor is a major hit on your operations

0.0 if you can run a solo mining op its very possible to replace completely the loss of a hulk and tech 2 fit out in a week or less(that is a heavy mining week though) this may seem rather intense to justify its use but this ship is a serious money maker, when seeing the potential a max skilled hulk with gang link bonuses can pull in I guarantee every one of you low sec miners would never go back to empire again cept to take freighters full of high end minerals to sell.

even so though if you want high profit with low risk in 0.0 I would suggest the skiff, 10 mil per ship 12-20 mil per modulated deep core + some merc 2 crystals and you are pulling in 30-40 mil an hour easy, more with maxed skills and gang links

anyhow 0.0 buy a hulk, everywhere else its damn nice but may not be worth it on a personal basisa

to more clearly answer the op, if your gonna mine high sec with a hulk(which means afk mining) besides the fact that it is such a waste of such an awesome ship and you should be shot for using it in this way, it will yield you 20% more then a covetor so there is really no discussion about it, in the long run its always better

Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2006.11.24 00:21:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Karl Mattar on 24/11/2006 00:24:44
There are two reasons to buy a Hulk for high sec mining.

1) 20% more ore. Explained above. This does significantly add up over time.

2) Tank. If you know what you are doing, you are not likely to be popped before Concord shows up when the local nutcase decides to go suicidal and pop your ship for whatever reason. A Covetor won't last. It has no tank at all.

In the long run, you can get ahead with the Hulk, but it will take you a crappy long time to do it on high sec ore. I only invested in one because A) I see the price going up over time, B) I had the money burning a hole in my pocket, and C) I intend to go to 0.0 someday, maybe sooner than later. So until I go, I will simply enjoy the bonus ore and think to myself, "Damn the wallet took a hit. I need to get out there to make some real money now."

If you don't have 0.0 in your future, it's not worth the expense. Plain and simple. You will spend the rest of your natural life mining veldspar to make up the cost. :)

Hulk ~500 mil
3x T2 Strip Miners ~75 mil
Various tank and buff mods ~25 mil

600 million is about 300 million tritanium. Yeah, that's the rest of your natural life, just to break even.

Tunajuice
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.11.24 04:36:00 - [21]
 

Ah I was wrong in my post, sorry for that. I thought the upgrades were applied flat and not cumulatively, I still have a lot to learn about the inner workings of EVE.


Check out the ice mining guide

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=305662

So find out how many hours it takes to pay off 500 mil if you make 20% more per hour... and see if that is worth it.

Vladimir Ramanov
Amarr
Tres Hombres
Posted - 2006.11.24 04:38:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Vladimir Ramanov on 24/11/2006 04:39:42
The Hulk has a few advantages over the Covetor when using T2 strip miners.

Firstly, spare cyrstals, lugging around a set of mining cyrstals in a covetor with only 4000m3 cargo is a real pain when it come to cycles finishing, maxed out mining skill in a covetor with a mining upgrade almost fills the cargo as it is (side note: WTF is it with the huge cyrstal size anyway? the things are 6 times the size of the laser they fit in ffs). The 8000m3 cargo of the Hulk is a godsend for this.

Secondly, Cap. The Hulk has the cap to activate all 3 lasers with the higher ore crystals at once, Covetors struggle to do like wise, a real pain when you are dealing with rats at the same time.

Little things admitadly but they sure make life easier.

Xaildaine
Posted - 2006.11.24 06:01:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Xaildaine on 24/11/2006 06:42:25
Edited by: Xaildaine on 24/11/2006 06:39:07
Edited by: Xaildaine on 24/11/2006 06:37:02


Scram and Web in the mids
T2 drones in the bay

Pesky ore thiefs in frigs get a real surprise

Edit Found link
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=425669


 

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