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Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.21 12:03:00 - [31]
 

Well, I used to say CCP dont give out enough info, and they've actually changed that.

The problem now seems to be that they give our wrong info ... And raise expectations that they can't deliver on.

Part of that is in our own mind however, we always expect more then thay actually promise. But part of it also isn't, and it's pretty shocking to see for example the factional warfare implementation they seem to have worked on for more then half a year.

All in all, frequency is now ok, content is still not.
It's going to need improvement, because not every future change is going to be met with a majority of enthusiasm by default.



DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:16:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Eris Discordia
I'm not testing because I'm selling my little appartment in Holland Wink


Blasphemy... Selling your appartment in the Netherlands... tisk. Ow well one pink house less... :P

Agent Li
Caldari
CCCP INC
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:53:00 - [33]
 

I'm happy with the level of communication.

I am convinced that they read the forums. I also am convinced that while they do take some of the suggestions and complaints to heart, they aren't going to a) make everyone happy with their decisions and b) aren't going to waste time responding in a forum to infinitely repeated requests to answer the same questions.

It's not arrogance. It's thousands of people asking the same questions over and over again, and the developers (a small team, by my reckoning) spending their time coding rather than writing blogs or answering forum questions.

Most of these complaints/questions take the form of:

<insert feature here> is going to unbalance the game and it will be the end of Eve! What are you going to do about it?

or

<insert feature here> is the only way I play in Eve, and if you nerf it, I will logoff forever! What are you going to do about it?

or

<insert feature here> currently ruins the game and it will be the end of Eve by tomorrow night! Why won't you nerf it?

Leon 026
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:54:00 - [34]
 

I'm personally happy and content about CCP's level of communication, which is by far superior to say for example World of Warcraft.

There is one thing that the EVE community needs to learn from WoW, and its that if you abuse and insult the devs (like the WoW community did at open beta and at launch), the devs are more likely to ignore you and detach themselves from the community, then you get the result of : whine and abuse the devs for not replying; and whine and abuse the devs FOR replying in a fashion that doesnt give in to your every single demands.

Its headed that way unfortunately, seeing all the whine about ship balancing.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.11.21 16:08:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Shadowsword on 21/11/2006 16:11:28
Originally by: Jim McGregor

CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. ugh


I am, too. CCP is lights-years ahaed of anyone else in that regard.


Little example: A week ago, on the WOW expansion beta, the Druids (undepowered since day one) got one ability that every other class had: being able to use healing/mana potions. New animations for that, and stuff. There was much rejoicing in the druid forums. Then, two weeks later, it got canceled, for no reason any of them could find out (it's not as if they'd suddenly become the I-WIN button, far from it), and Blizzard stated that this ability for druids was a bug in the first place. Nevermind that they didn't say anything about bug in those 2 weeks. Blizzard must have some curious bugs, that create animations and change database entries on dozens of objects.

So, the Druids, already tired of being considered "free kill", of seeing hundreds, if not thousands, of constructive threads answered only by silence, reacted to that obvious lie by... a forum riot... A thread with 200 druids posting askii fingers, a lot of "F--- You Blizzard" popping everywhere, players giving up on WOW, and so on. And the only answer of Blizzard, has been to delete those posts, ban a few druids, and from now on delete on sight EVERY SINGLE thread that voice concern about beta balancing.

To date, this is the most horrible exemple of community managment I've seen.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2006.11.21 16:12:00 - [36]
 

In general it's pretty good but they also have a bad habit of putting in major things without warning (jump queues) as well as saying they are doing x and then doing y.

Major Stormer
Caldari
MEK Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.21 16:13:00 - [37]
 

Very. If you dont like it, go and play any SOE game. CCP are Info Desks compared ;)

Righteous Fury
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.21 16:24:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Righteous Fury on 21/11/2006 16:24:17
To be comepletely honest, CCP used to be 100x better at communication. I remember the days when you could actually mail kieron and get a response back in a timely manner.

Now you have it today, where emails go ignored for months, you can't really post any "ATTN: Devs, I need some help" threads anymore (not that you really should do it all that much in the first place, but sometimes its a last resort).

Or my favorite thing, not being able to get my accounting problems solved because none of the GMs respond to petitions \o/

Yeah, CCP's commmunication is good compared to other companies, but its nowhere near as good as it was at its prime. Blame whatever reasn for this, but its the truth.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:09:00 - [39]
 

No I'm not too impressed with there level of service.

These forums are a front for that service, almost anything that goes on in game gets writtin down here at some point, and yet it's the worst forum to use, no other forum demands that I log on 10+ times to post something.

People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:20:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Righteous Fury
Edited by: Righteous Fury on 21/11/2006 16:24:17
To be comepletely honest, CCP used to be 100x better at communication. I remember the days when you could actually mail kieron and get a response back in a timely manner.

Now you have it today, where emails go ignored for months, you can't really post any "ATTN: Devs, I need some help" threads anymore (not that you really should do it all that much in the first place, but sometimes its a last resort).

Or my favorite thing, not being able to get my accounting problems solved because none of the GMs respond to petitions \o/

Yeah, CCP's commmunication is good compared to other companies, but its nowhere near as good as it was at its prime. Blame whatever reasn for this, but its the truth.


Back in the day there were 3 times as few players as now, and Kieron was fresh at the job.

Put it into perspective before you start to complain...

Soumk
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:26:00 - [41]
 



They speak very loud and are easy to hear.

I'm happy.


Vazroth
Gallente
Quasar Consortium
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:29:00 - [42]
 

I donít post much, but I read a lot. It seems to me that we have it Good here, it could be a lot worse, and it will get worse if people keep complaining about how this sucks or nerf that, or this, if you ***** at someone long enough, they will get tired of it and quit listening to any Valuable input you might have.

I personally think we as a community are given a chance to help direct the flow of EVE, but if you continue to abuse, *****, complain yell gripe etc. we will lose the ability, and the Devís will ignore us completely, and it is happening as we speak..

So take a break, kick back, relax, let them do their job, if they screw something up, oh well.. itís there game, no one is forcing you to pay, or to play, itís your choice!

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:34:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Gone'Postal

People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.


Funny that you mention that: The Wow forum disconnect you after a given inactivity time, and it consider writing a post as "inactive time", which mean, in short, that if you try to write a long post, your post get swallowed by a page asking you to reconnect and you're boned.

Eve's forum swallowing posts is more a tecnical issue than a something put on purpose, and I heard Firefox users don't have that problem...

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:38:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Gone'Postal

People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.


Funny that you mention that: The Wow forum disconnect you after a given inactivity time, and it consider writing a post as "inactive time", which mean, in short, that if you try to write a long post, your post get swallowed by a page asking you to reconnect and you're boned.

Eve's forum swallowing posts is more a tecnical issue than a something put on purpose, and I heard Firefox users don't have that problem...


Ah did not know that, (Never played WoWVery Happy) but I do indeed use firefox V2 and have this issue, While I know it's not there on purpose, personaly it's something that should have been fixed by now, but I can understand that Kali gets more effort then a forum issue.

Freada
Gallente
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:43:00 - [45]
 

To many people have justifiable concerns about the complexity of the kali update, the lack of fixes for the last upgrades problems. The lack of player testing for the new features. The lack of details about the new features. The community response to the "magic BPO conversion" they have remianed silent on and the fact that a great number of people think they should wait until after the first of the year to launch kali.

Given that they seem to be ignoring all of this and pushing full spead ahead what can they really say?

Lord Darkness
Super Muppets Accumulated Space Holding Inc
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:44:00 - [46]
 

I used to be happy with the level of communication from CCP. But recently it seems they can't keep up with the amount of people that have joined the game.

The biggest 2 things I see as being a problem are:

ArrowStealth nerfs or unnerfs (T1 BPOs being changed to T2, or when POS and parts jumped to 3x the price)

ArrowLack of Bug Statuses, this is paticularly frustrating because there are certain aspects of the game that I can't use, and CCP will not tell me if the issue is being looked into, or if it is what the status is, all I get is check the patch notes (we all know how inclusive they are)

Locke DieDrake
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:46:00 - [47]
 

I'm fairly happy with CCP right now.

I think they could do a better job of getting information about changes out, but at the same time, that information isn't really a good thing to get out all the time.

Especially when it's subject to change.
(sniff, 7 missle launchers, RIP)


Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:00:00 - [48]
 

Unreal, just unbelievable.

So everyone is cool with STEALTH nerfing/boosting?

Your fine with the T2 Lottery GANK and what little information we have about the rationalization for it?

Its OK to give rare t1 BPO holders ANOTHER better I win button and nary a word is said in rationalization, or for that matter even to let us know it happened?

I can only assume the fanboys got theirs or are just blind.

This level of communication is NOT good, City of Heroes was much much more professional and upfront than I've seen here.

Trooper B99
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:09:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Trooper B99 on 21/11/2006 18:13:29
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Lessons learned:
2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there
It was hilarious sitting beside Seleene when the Hurricane nerf OMFGDIEINFLAMEPLZ! thread started. Was even funnier when Tux came over and read it with us ^^

That said, the level of communication is fine I feel. There was plenty of good info at FF and loads of that was stoating about the various forums for the week afterwards. That and if they are quiet it means they are busy. Or drunk. But maybe busy. Busy being drunk! I mean. . . err. . . . yeah! Considering the amount of info we *have* had in prior devblogs, postings by members of the community and in the variouis resources available not to mention the availabilty to go have a look on SiSi and do some bug checking (hint hint).

Alot of the info is there, you just have to do some legwork to find it.

Risien Drogonne
Shadow Gypsies
R i s e
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:11:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Gone'Postal

People compare WoW to Eve, apart from the game type there 100% diffrent. but for even WoW lack of support I bet there forums work fine.

The WoW forums are infamous for being down as much as they're up.

Vladimir Titov
Minmatar
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:20:00 - [51]
 

My only issue is with documentation of new features with every patch. Sometimes there are hidden caveats that make for more interesting gameplay. At other times they can just make for expensive mistakes.

I won't go into details, but ever since they introduced ship building arrays I had been looking to them as a way to improve margins on some t2 ships I make (I currently only make about 20-25% on them). I was shocked that these arrays had lower material efficiency, even when CCP had promoted them as being superior to empire stations in every way. This is not an example of a hidden feature, but an expensive mistake which, despite all my previous research on the matter, could not have found out until hundreds of millions had been spent.

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:38:00 - [52]
 

Very eloquently put, thread starter.

In my experience playing MMOs, which I would peg as "considerable" since I play practically every major one that comes out for some amount of time, I would rate CCP's communication with the community very highly.

I base this on several things. Most MMOs have an appointed community communications person, and most if not all of the major communications between the developer and the folks on the forums goes through this person. This takes place usually in the form of semi-regular posts detailing some answers to common questions, that kind of thing.

Rarely is a real developer seen or heard of in the forums directly. Here, it's like they're in the trenches with us, answering questions as much as they can. They're reasonable, and as forthcoming as they can be without giving out information they shouldn't.

We get dev blogs often, and not just from the same one or two guys. A wide spectrum of information is given out that a lot of developers would never release (details on infrastructure, for instance).

We're always encouraged to comment and give feedback on those blogs, and anything in EVE. Nicely formulated discussions are like devnip (a Winterblink-coined term, like catnip but for devs), almost attracting them to chime in with some additional remarks.

They're quick to communicate when there are issues, giving us information on what might be going wrong beyond just "server's down, we're working on it". We get causes, solutions, and everything in between.

All told, the level of communication I've seen from CCP on a regular basis far outweighs ALL that I've ever seen in any other game I've played, combined.

In terms of the Kali expansion, I'm ok with them being a bit secretive or absent. First off, they're probably busy, and if I were there with them right now I'd be the guy running out for pizza and drinks as necessary, maybe giving shoulder-rubs for the ladies. Back pats for the guys, of course... gotta keep it manly. Second, a little mystery never hurt anyone. I'm ok with some details of Kali being held back a while, we'll get the full story soon enough. It's not all coming in one huge patch, but in staged releases.

Anyway that's just my, admittedly long-winded, opinion. :)

Katril Wolf
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:47:00 - [53]
 

Up till they ran a database script to upgrade rare T1 Cargo Expanders to T2, and all the other stuff that script did, the week before FanFest. Then not providing the eve community 1 friggin post/news/blog commenting on it.

No! CCP at the moment is totally not communicating with the community. And a blog about walking in stations, a feature that is a year+ away, is not communicating. Major release nigh, and a stealth change to BPO's uncommented on for the last few weeks. There should have been a news item at the very least for that BPO change. *sheesh*

Flat out if Kali 1 doesn't appeal to me after it is released I honestly don't think I'll be staying.
It was CCP's communications that made me love this game 2 years ago, and brought me back from my mmorpg exile.

*currently ****ed at CCP*

PS. if you ask for my stuff, I'll hire mercs to war dec you. It's going to close friends from the past 2 years if I leave.

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:50:00 - [54]
 

CCP's level of communication is amazingly high compared to other devs for MMO's. Not all of this is constructive communication however. Sometimes, issues are raised and the players beg for dev response only to get some terse nonsensical answer possibly involving beer. Worst case, I see them sometimes become overly sarcastic and respond with anger.

Kali is incredibly important, not just to CCP but to the players as well. To put it nicely, we b!tch because we care and while you guys represent the final word when it comes to making changes, it would be a terrible shame to not listen to the people who play the game day in and day out.

CCP kieron

Posted - 2006.11.21 18:52:00 - [55]
 

Apologies for the recent lack of blogs, posts, news items and other information. I'm responsible for maintaining the flow of information from CCP to the community and have not been able to keep up with that responsibility due to both Wrangler and I attending game conventions since the Fanfest. As for the number of Dev blogs, the entire Dev team has been working on the production of the first part of Revelations.

Revelations patch notes and features page will be online and available by the end of the week, communication will be back to normal shortly after the deployment of Revelations next week.

Tachy
Posted - 2006.11.21 18:58:00 - [56]
 

In comparison to other game dev studios: Great.
In comparison to what would be sufficient: Far from even being rated okay.

In relation to what has been promised by ccp over and over to prevent attacks vs. some devs taking overhand repeatedly: Way insufficient. Promises do only fill a communication vacuum for a couple of weeks. If the same promises come with each bigger patch, they sound a wee bit hollow. Reading blogs that the communication team is getting wasted badly on each and every con and marketing event while pilots are airing their concerns doesn't help make us feel any better - or heard - or respected.

Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:20:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Well, I used to say CCP dont give out enough info, and they've actually changed that.

The problem now seems to be that they give our wrong info ... And raise expectations that they can't deliver on.




In the real world rod, thats called telling you what they want you to hear... iv'e noticed that it increases when in troubled times.. aka like a few weeks ago when the server was shot and people started on the timecode issue.... half the gd's front page was covered in stickies most of which were posted that night.. by the community guy.

Pretty much why i don't bother reading the dev blogs... it's very rare to non existant that they ever answer burning issues that the community actualy have.

Thats proper communication with the players.. answering those issues... not posting candyland blogs that appeal to the blind converted.

Very nice, yes.

Communication... nope.


Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:35:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: kieron
Apologies for the recent lack of blogs, posts, news items and other information. I'm responsible for maintaining the flow of information from CCP to the community and have not been able to keep up with that responsibility due to both Wrangler and I attending game conventions since the Fanfest. As for the number of Dev blogs, the entire Dev team has been working on the production of the first part of Revelations.

Revelations patch notes and features page will be online and available by the end of the week, communication will be back to normal shortly after the deployment of Revelations next week.



don't you have enough money to hire more people? its inevitable that your Staff per members ration remains the same as when the service was GOOD, and when i say good, i mean acceptable.

Hakera
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.21 19:43:00 - [59]
 

I think CCP's communication at present is fine in comparison to all the other online games Im interested in or playing.

There are two intrinsic problems with too much communication, the first is having to go back on 'your word'. Players take everything a dev says as gospel and if a dev needs to admit a mistake or change a previously stated reply, ordinarilly all hell breaks loose amongst the masses. God help us, devs are indeed just human (besides Oveur whose has been reclassified due to his blood being replaced by beer). In short, you have to be wary of being drawn into player debates, because like all good players, we all know whats best for eve and everyone elses idea is stupid :) Like in the past, you end up with simple statements being made and only minor discussion.

The second problem is you begin to set standards, players then expect replies on anything that is posted and feel that if they personally address the dev in the header, then a dev is obliged to reply (at least they think that!)

So in summary - a happy medium is needed!

The greatest problem I have seen which is symptomatic of a changing concept in a new feature is failure to communicate such changes to the playerbase. But that is probably because as ever in the world of mmorpgs, nothing is for certain and even if it makes it live, it can change very easily. Until CCP have feature locked something, all we have to go on is the little bits of information said previously which is I guess why people were upset with FW as it was originally slated to be a all encompassing feature but in the not too distant past very quickly it was realised the problems with balancing such a large scale open feature. It is a similar thing for many of the kali features, there arnt exactly user guides on how each feature is meant to work and how it ties into the great circle of eve. That is part of the fun though, figuring that stuff out. We cant be spoonfed all our lives and expect to be consulted at every step of the project cycle.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.11.21 20:16:00 - [60]
 

Communication, it's an interesting topic which pops up regularly. I personally think we communicate a lot, but even myself have problems following posts from other devs on the forums these days.

The volume is simply too much (we'll improve that with better tracking tools when our new MyEVE dev comes back), so I understand the reasoning behind the topic, especially if you are in the vast majority of EVE players that visit the forums on an irregular basis.

What we have to understand in this whole thing, is that we have people that have it as their job to communicate and then we have silly devs like me which post on the forums unhindered and unmoderated by marketing (or whatever).

When we're very busy with developing EVE like now with Revelations, only the people that have it as their responsibility to communicate can communicate - and as you might expect, the forums aren't their only venue and they can be held up by that venue (ie Fanfest). That of course means less volume.

Other times we simply don't want to communicate on something because it's entirely pre-mature and it'll change too much to come with any detailed answer on it, and then we have the times when we mess up and "stealth nerf" something (like the preparations for all the paths of Invention, resulting in the fix to the Tech I research/agent BPOs, which caused quite a stir)

The last thing we changed to incraease communication in the short term (till we get all our new tools!!!) was the increased blog rate. If you check out the dev blogs, you'll see that we have 1-3 each week over the last months, an considerable increase compared to the last years. If you read through the last months, you'll find more about Revelations that you think is in there.

After this, we're adding a new form of CSM, an old format of Q&A we had. We used to have these as live chats with a pre-defined group of players from various areas of EVE. The timing was off tho and it would have been far more efficient simply to gather the questions and post them regularly. Well, that's what we're gonna do. Have a big group of players with access to submit questions on certain topics, which change between Q&A and have the posted and archived, like every 2-4 weeks or whatever.

We're also finally starting an official Wiki, which not only will allow you all to contribute, but also enable everyone to improve information about absolutely anything within EVE, if there is doubt, we can clarify it there, where it sticks and isn't drowned in the volumes of the forums, the archive of the blogs or wherever it can end up in. I can't wait!

I have to get back to Revelations, if we're going to hit the 28th, we have to keep our eye on the ball(s). Our defect tracking systems says Revelations is looking good, no critical bugs listed - but defect tracking only reflects the stuff that is found, so please help us out with public testing and hammer Singularity with us, because this time, we could really need some of your communication to us Wink


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