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JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:09:00 - [1]
 

Expectation is a funny old thing. Having played tons of games over my life, I had never really had any contact with the companies behind them, unless it was "error blah blah fix it" etc.

Eve is the first MMORPG I've played, and when I started 2 years ago I was impressed with the way the company interacted with the player base. Always reasonably open with things, the way things were headed etc.

Then there was the explosion of users. Petition and Customer Service queues exploded along with the userbase, and the devs struggled to find time to talk to us.

They posted a blog stating their desire to..um...post more blogs....

Since then we've enjoyed the fairly regular blogs, especially over the last 4 months or so when the performance of the servers has been pretty crappy.

And then Kali1, aka Revelations, came along. And with it came many, many changes:

ArrowIn-game voice comms
ArrowNew Battleships for all the races
ArrowNew Battlecruisers for all the races
ArrowA new contract system replacing escrows
ArrowNew gang system
ArrowRigs
ArrowInvention
ArrowSalvaging
ArrowExploration
ArrowScanning changes
ArrowNew map
ArrowNew corp management tools

The list goes on.
Those of you who've taken an interest in any of these things will know that none of them is without controversy. Each one has been debated, broken down piece by piece, with entire spreadsheets devoted to why the flux capacitor on the Hurricane is better than the one on a 1993 Honda Accord.

And yet I have been stunned by the silence from CCP. Aside from the odd comment in a couple of the threads in the Kali forum, there has been very little if any response to the players on Kali changes.

There have been literally dozens of very relevant and very genuine issues raised as a result of the huge changes Kali1 brings. In no way am I advocating for any of them, as I'm sure that the arguments have already been made both for and against.

My view is that each of these needs addressing. There are lots of issues raised that I disagree with, but yet can't really fault the logic of, and would think deserve a look.

I know that CCP are flat out with Kali1, with White Wolf, with The Sims: Station Life®, and that time is short.

But to even state what concerns were being looked at, what is being ignored and why, would at least let us understand whether the testing and discussion and experiments are worth our time and effort.

What are your thoughts on CCP's level of communication around Kali? I mean, isn't it supposed to launch on the 28th? I haven't seen anything official, but if they announce a huge outage for the patch only a couple of days before it, isn't that a bit...odd?

Don't flame. If you have something constructive, please add it. Please don't discuss individual issues you may have with Kali elements. If you're happy with CCP then feel free to say so.

Idara
Caldari
Queens of the Stone Age
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:10:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Idara on 21/11/2006 04:13:00
I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th.

As far as I can tell, the stupid Features page for Kali hasn't even been updated, and that was "supposed" to have been done weeks ago.

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:14:00 - [3]
 

"It's a conspiracy!" Laughing

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:15:00 - [4]
 

Lessons learned:

1) Forums are largely ignored
2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:19:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Lessons learned:

1) Forums are largely ignored
2) If you want something nerfed, go to Fanfest and complain about it there


You're not the first person to have said that, and it would be sad if info given to devs at Fanfest had more weight than the forums, given that EVERYONE can access the forums and give their thoughts.

Risien Drogonne
Shadow Gypsies
R i s e
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:20:00 - [6]
 

In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:36:00 - [7]
 

For the most part, a yes.

The only gripe that I have is that they don't say how they will address problems in the game, such as downsides of the HP boost, and the new ECM system.

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:37:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Risien Drogonne
In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.


That's what I alluded to at the start of my first post...given that CCP does talk to us more, we now expect so much from them. Am I expecting too much?

Coasterbrian
Grenadiers
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:38:00 - [9]
 

It's pretty simple, actually. If the devs got into a debate with the players over whether a change is balanced or fair or not, and did it for every change they make that is potentially controversial (in other words, 99% of the changes), they would spend more time making forum posts than making the game. Hell, if the devs even READ every thread about change discussions, they would still probably spend half of their working day just keeping up on the forums. I think several devs (Oveur, maybe Hammerhead?) have stated in the past that they limit their forum whorage to an hour or so a day. TBH, I bet Sharkbait gets yelled at a lot when he's caught making forum posts instead of working. Laughing

Also remember that the devs have to take everything brought up here with a grain of salt. People debating a change GENERALLY pick their point of view based on how it affects their gameplay style. Look at the removal of carriers as level 4 mission whoring machines: the people that did level 4s in lowsec in their carriers obviously weren't in favor of it, but much of the rest of the playerbase was. The same can go for any change in the game, be it the new gang system (which makes life difficult for large alliances, especially for the first few weeks after kali) to the tech II ammo changes (null nerf) to the debate over whether any of the new ships are worth a crap or not (sure they are, once you get over what you WANT to do with them and figure out what you CAN do with them Rolling Eyes).

You get the idea.

Jin Jemai
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:39:00 - [10]
 

Am I annoyed with the level of communication from CCP themselves? No, but I am annoyed with the amount of communication coming from the community managers. WoW had the same issue early on, little to no communication, and finally Blizzard got their community managers straight and the communication levels rose.

This is not an attack at the community managers at all, as it is usually a matter of lack of info from the devs to them that can cause this. I certainly think there is room for improvement in this area however, even if the community managers compile a list of the daily forum concerns to pass onto the devs for responses that the C.M's can pass on to us. That is if they don't already do that :P

But yeah, it was inevitable that communication levels would decrease with the influx of players, there's simply too much to keep up with. Not to mention that aloft of our feedback lately has been a bunch of dorks whining and groaning about the stupidest things.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:41:00 - [11]
 

This is the first MMORPG i am playing and so far i am amazed by the fact that the company people do take time to answer at some (true not all) questions raised here.
But to be honest there must be a line.
We as players are very biased and usually demand (note not ask we demand and extort) things that are simply not realistic. That said we also have (as all humans do) the need to ask for the advantage while not caring for the rest.

Especially for Kali ( i am here after RMR so i don't know what happened then), the changes are big and change scares people. It's a fact of life. Change is quite luring and scary at the same time.

So it's good that they don't answer to many threads. Because that would lead to a vast increase of whining and similar stuff, than now is going on.

Maybe i am wrong but that is how i perceive it.

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:46:00 - [12]
 

I agree that there is a LOT of "feedback" that's of zero value. But there is an equal amount of geniune stuff that makes sense to at least consider. Or say you're not going to consider Very Happy

Macrominer999
Posted - 2006.11.21 04:54:00 - [13]
 

This company USED to be a genuine place to get help, support, and feedback from the devs. They USED to be reliable and respectful. They USED to be honorable, truthful, and dedicated.

What are they now? None of the above. They have abandoned all tendencies that got them here... they substitute partying, greed, and ego... for dedication to their product and players. Shame on them... shame on young entropeneurs not knowing how to handle fame and fortune. They get their checks... they forget their reality checks.

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:08:00 - [14]
 

Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.

Miss Overlord
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:09:00 - [15]
 

compared with other MMOs CCP has always had a good level of communication i think they are doing a good job given the circumstances and the business pressures forcing kali to be deployed before xmas

CCP LeMonde


C C P
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:29:00 - [16]
 

Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading Cool

I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.

So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.

Loktofeit
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:51:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Loktofeit on 21/11/2006 05:53:22
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.


Q F to the T




I find it amusing that in the past few weeks we have received

  • several blogs from the devs

  • an entire day worth of speeches, videos, concept work, and PPTs on what they are working on in reasonable detail - the entire purpose of which was to get information out to the fans

  • a good dozen or so interviews across the fansites

  • a 70+ page glossy magazine with a dozen pages of dev-related content from interviews to handling scams to post-Kali Planetary Interaction plans



and someone can actually post

"I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th."



I'd say their communication is far superior to what you get from most MMOGs.


Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.21 06:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hllaxiu
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.


A post for sore eyes.

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.21 06:27:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Loktofeit
Edited by: Loktofeit on 21/11/2006 05:53:22
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.


Q F to the T




I find it amusing that in the past few weeks we have received

  • several blogs from the devs

  • an entire day worth of speeches, videos, concept work, and PPTs on what they are working on in reasonable detail - the entire purpose of which was to get information out to the fans

  • a good dozen or so interviews across the fansites

  • a 70+ page glossy magazine with a dozen pages of dev-related content from interviews to handling scams to post-Kali Planetary Interaction plans



and someone can actually post

"I'd like a blog or something, considering it's right after Fanfest and we've heard absolutely nothing except the occasional post that Kali 1 is hoping for a deployment on the 28th."



I'd say their communication is far superior to what you get from most MMOGs.




No one is disputing that CCP are better than everyone else.

But judged against their own high standards I feel they've been less than chatty over Kali recently.

As far as Dev blogs go, there's been 1 on gangs, one on ECM, and a few on Kali progress.

But none addressing the top10 issues raised by the community over the Kali changes. And I think that's a shame.

Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 06:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: LeMonde
Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading Cool

I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.

So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.


You should leave Footprints on every thread read by a dev ; ).

LeMonde writes down a forum idea.


Regarding the OP, Dude i can't complain, CCP are doing their best, and as far as I am concerned EVE is Always Ranked Number 1 MMORPG, Be thank full, if you don't like it, its a Bonus to move on a have a LIFE Believe me.

Miss Overlord
Gallente
Doomheim
Posted - 2006.11.21 06:46:00 - [21]
 

eve is still the best out there by far

Cadadon
Amarr
terra firma team
Posted - 2006.11.21 07:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Hllaxiu
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.


That means nothing, Wrangler is a dev now, and continues to post in his normal way, interacting with the community, but its not 'dev' stuff (most of the time).

Saying that, I can't blame the devs for not posting on here more, the community is a lot whinier now than it used to be, because EVE is becoming more main stream. I'd rather go back to the good old days of 10k max players, and a tight relationship between devs and players.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.21 08:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: JForce
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
In my experience, CCP talks to its playerbase FAR more than the devs of any other game. Take WoW, for instance. While their forum mods might talk to you and their community reps, the actual devs are sighted maybe once every six months.


That's what I alluded to at the start of my first post...given that CCP does talk to us more, we now expect so much from them. Am I expecting too much?


Quite frnakly, yes.

You forget that when a dev posts in any thread, it gets spammed by people who go offtopic just because they have seen a dev in it and think they can ask something from him. Or the topic just gtes flamed because he posted something that people dn't like.

That's why devs usually don't post on the forums. Some people are idiots, bsaically. Let alone the fact that they can't spend 4 hours a day on the forums, they have things to do besides that.... It's a miracle they communicate with us as much as they do.

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.21 08:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cadadon
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Interestingly enough, it seems from eve-search that there are the same number of dev posts now as there ever were. The problem is that the amount of traffic on the forum has increased with the player base (more than tripled since I joined I believe), and so the same number of posts (which is a LOT by game company standards) gets drowned out by people whining about the same thing over and over again.


That means nothing, Wrangler is a dev now, and continues to post in his normal way, interacting with the community, but its not 'dev' stuff (most of the time).

Saying that, I can't blame the devs for not posting on here more, the community is a lot whinier now than it used to be, because EVE is becoming more main stream. I'd rather go back to the good old days of 10k max players, and a tight relationship between devs and players.


Wrangler is not a dev, he's assistant community manager - it's his job to work the forums :P

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.21 08:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Roxanna Kell
Originally by: LeMonde
Don't forget that while we may not be commenting/posting, we're still reading Cool

I think I can say with good certainty that just about every thread that hits general discussion is read by a CCP employee, many of them even get circulated and the points in them discussed within departments of the company.

So while you may not get a gold bar on your thread, that doesn't mean we haven't seen it.


You should leave Footprints on every thread read by a dev ; ).



People have actually seriously suggested this before. :) But can you imagine the whine when people see that someone has read their thread but didnt reply to it? "OMG The sky is falling, ccp hates me because im amarr" etc etc. Laughing

It worries me that threads are circulated around the office... im sure some of mine has been the laughingstock of the entire company at some time. But thats fine! Im here to please... or something. Laughing

Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
Posted - 2006.11.21 10:40:00 - [26]
 

While CCP is still quite active at communicating with us players, there is one point, which is quite lacking in the last time: real information.

We are very busy discussing the aspects of Kali but we get nearly no information on how the features shall work. If we find a massive bug, QA is answering (thanks for this, specially to Mephysto), but if there are questions about game-design, nobody is giving any details.

Just a few areas, where additional information would be / have been very good:
* Booster-production
* official info about warp to 0 and BM`s
* Exploration (we know, how it works atm, but does it work like intended??)
* Vivox
...

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2006.11.21 11:25:00 - [27]
 

Everyone is involved with Kali testing the new content and we don't have much time to write replies on the forums because of this.

I'm not testing because I'm selling my little appartment in Holland Wink

Aaron Rex
Caldari
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:39:00 - [28]
 

In the past the major updates have been well documented prior to release on the Features page . Click any one of those links and you'll see the "more" sublink or some sort of detailed description. They were informative and fun (since Oveur wrote them Smile).

However, no detail or sublinks has yet been put into the Kali site. I think a lot of this feeling of too little communication could be done away with if Hellmar locked Oveur in his office with a keg of beer, an inflatable doll and an order to write a bit of documentation... Wink

SuicidalMerchant
Republic University
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:51:00 - [29]
 

I think its a very simple responsibility issue, that is found wherever you find humans.

The uninvolved who feel they will personally be greatly affected by the decisions of others want that bit of connection and control so they can sleep at night.
The ones actually responsible for making the changes are too few, and too focused to deal with the superior numbers of the other side.

Look within your own alliances. How many of you keep details of issues affecting the corp fairly hush hush or on a need-to-know basis? Why? Its not just because of spies. Its generally just smoother if everyone focuses on one (possibly flawed) outcome instead of getting bogged down trying to find the perfect solution that satisfies everyone.

Eve actually has great interaction between the 2 groups, relative to others in the industry. I personally dont even go near NCsoft anymore for the simple reason that back in Lineage2 (Chron 1) there was NO channel to the devs. By that I mean the entire US server was ignored. (60,000 of us, several hundred thousand on Korean server) There was 1 community relations guy, and he was only around on a Sunday. Oh things can be so much worse than not getting a dev's personal response to your theories on how to make you richer or more powerful.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:58:00 - [30]
 


CCP are better than everybody else in the industry at communicating with players, so I would say YES IM HAPPY. ugh


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