open All Channels
seplocked Ships and Modules
blankseplocked WCS - please reconsider
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9

Author Topic

Phenom Fighter
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.11.19 03:49:00 - [151]
 

you mix WCS with turrets/launchers its wrong. It will always be exploited.
WCS were made for safe 'travel' not for safe 'pvp/pve'

Tho imo with all this 'penalty is too large' thing going on my vote has always been make the damn things high slot. prob solved

BlackMoon Thrawn
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.11.19 03:53:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn
Quote:
I'm specifically thinking of edge-of-empire mission runners, who get sent into 0.4 systems that are chokepoints and so are;



So basicaly, if you ran missions in a constellation with no highsec or lowsec transitions we wouldnt have to listen to this?Confused
No one MADE you click on the thread...

REAL low sec (0.3 => 0.0) is less of a problem 'cos there's less population. 0.4's are a special case because most of them are "gateways to 0.0" and so are heavily camped and scouted.


A great point which has nothing to do with my post or what you stated you were specificaly worried about. I will say it again, if you did missions in constellations entirely contained within highsec or >4 low sec what would the problem be?

Tyler Lowe
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2006.11.19 03:58:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Grey Area


And I'M defensive?


Yes.

But hear me out on that.

You have to actively seek that input, since you are asking for a change to a planned game mechanic. I'd find it hard to believe that you expect people to simply stop arguing down the same roads they're used to without some heavy prompting. I know you've been on game forums long enough to know better than that. People understand less than 80% of what they read, and many don't bother to do more than skim a topic and end up with much, much less than an 80% understanding of the intent of the author. People argue points they are comfortable with, even though they may have nothing to do with what you were trying to say. So you're going to have to pursue people and get them to discuss points they may not be comfortable with, things they need to dedicate new thought to.

That means showing patience in the face of resistance, and again, seeking out that input. It means not becoming instantly argumentative when you run into someone that disagrees, but rather being prepared to listen to why they think as they do, and I mean really think about what they have to say. It means you may have to ask for the "why's" when they are not provided. It also means being prepared to re-evaluate your own opinion in trying to find common ground and in so doing accept that you may be wrong, which can be a difficult thing. Granted, you may not have success with every person you ask or even with more than one or two, but opening a meaningful discussion of the issue with even one person can allow others to start looking at it from a different perspective than the preset, hardwired, responses they are used to carting out in threads that have been similar to this one.

I guess I'm suggesting that being prepared to compromise means acknowledging that you may not and probably won't get exactly what you wanted, but hopefully can find a solution that no one finds completely objectionable.

I don't want that to come off as some sort of lecture, I'm certainly no one of importance, it's meant purely to be what I hope is helpful, and constructive advice.

BlackMoon Thrawn
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.11.19 03:59:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Tyler Lowe
This is probably the most valid point I've read on the thread. (followed by coherent argument...hard to believe but true)
I've posted the idea. Not ONE person yet has said why the idea as given would cause them trouble. They have *****ed about my playing style, about ships with four warp core stabs, about the risk vs reward in empire, about snipers with multiple stabs and gloated about their "pwnage" over carebears and mission runners. Basically not ONE SINGLE person has actually said "this will not work because"...

And I'M defensive?


first page I think(maybe second). If one stab can be fitted then 2 warp jammers will have to be fitted for pvp. In ships with >4 high slots this is too high of a price to pay imo. You, of course, are entitled ot your opinion. Just don't say there havent been valid aguements from teh other side. The risk vs reward part was a specific argument to the point your play style is being infringed upon. Basicaly, I dont feel your play style (high sec level 4 missions) is valid.

Matrices Reborn
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.19 04:42:00 - [155]
 

The WCS nerf boosts carebears in 0.0 more than anything else. In the ASCN-BoB war a lot of BoB slave corp ratters field at least 1 WCS to prevent themselves from being caught and killed by solo raiders.

Now as if solo raiders aren't being nerfed enough in Kali, we're going to see ratters fitting WCS without any meaningful penalty. (Who cares about lock time and range in any ratting BS?)

BlackMoon Thrawn
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.11.19 04:47:00 - [156]
 

Quote:
The WCS nerf boosts carebears in 0.0 more than anything else. In the ASCN-BoB war a lot of BoB slave corp ratters field at least 1 WCS to prevent themselves from being caught and killed by solo raiders.



And so do ascn members. Its commmonplace and will take some getting used to but the nerf is needed. As a side note, is there any reason to bring specificaly inflamitory terms(like bob slave corp) into this discussion?

Thomas Maleficus
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.19 04:58:00 - [157]
 

You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!!

Gordan Freeman
Caldari
Point Blank Carebears
Posted - 2006.11.19 06:40:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Thomas Maleficus
You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!!

here here

Xendie
Ad Astra Vexillum
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2006.11.19 06:47:00 - [159]
 

Grey area, even 5 stabs wont save you from dedicated people that wants to shoot you.
they will just decloak a Falcon 5k off you with 3*2point scrams just as the gank ships come flying in.
and then you will be scrammed for 6 and jammed up over your ears and in the end properly ganked.
couldnt happen to a nicer whiner.

everyone overcompensates for WCS users, often twice the amount actually needed since someone might land out of range or something.

Xoduse
Gallente
Beasts of Burden
Posted - 2006.11.19 08:19:00 - [160]
 

If you absolutely must have your one WCS in Kali then put in on, jump thru the low sec gate (where the only possible way you can be ganked is on the other side once warp to 0km hits TQ), warp to your mission, offline the WCS so the penaltys dont apply, run the freakin mission, then online your WCS and whola no harm done.

Sure it will take a minute to recharge your cap but you get your free little WCS even in kali.

Now please somebody stop the carebear flood.Twisted Evil

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.11.19 09:26:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Nemain on 19/11/2006 09:28:06
I'd say the carry one and offline it approach would only work if you have cap charges. As grey area has already said, it's no use if you are jumped mid mission as you cannot get it back on line so defeating the whole reason for having it fitted. I don't know about anyone else but I wouldn't sit there and be shot at while waitin for my cap to recharge, i'd be tanking and so have nochance at all of activating the mod, unless like I said I was using a ship that has cap charges.

Personally, I would have given WCS a complete block on locking so that they are used only for travel. However, the ability to run is still every bit as valid as the ability to prevent it. Now in it's current form, wcs on fast moving combat ships is a nightmare to counter, but to make it so that that any combat ship once webbed and scrambled cannot escape is a little too lopsided. Which is essentially what this nerf will mean, as noone in their right mind will fit them for combat, unless they plan on offlining them then use cap charges to online them and run (then we are back to square one, a vagabond with a cap booster in mids could still operate in a similar fashion as now). In my opinion, like I said, WCS should have a flat out locking block. But to prevent an entirely 1 sided web/scramble fest and prevent PVE alienation, I would sugest a sort of WCS equivilent of ECM burst be introduced. Make it so that it is chance based, uses all your cap, has a 10 minute cycle (then if you are caught again, the attacker deserves to be able to stop you), prevents cap boosters running for 2mins and warps you to a random spot. This would prevent abuse, and even though I suspect the majority pvp of pilots would consider it a waste of a low slot, it would still give the option if you think the odds are stacked against you or you are mission running, as a last ditch attempt to escape (a kind of all or nothing mod). That in my opinion is far more balanced, but i am no doubt wrong :)

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.19 10:19:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn
first page I think(maybe second). If one stab can be fitted then 2 warp jammers will have to be fitted for pvp. In ships with >4 high slots this is too high of a price to pay imo. You, of course, are entitled ot your opinion. Just don't say there havent been valid aguements from teh other side.
But the argument is just basically WRONG...there are TWO point warp scramblers...why not fit one of those? Or, as you are so fond of saying..."bring a friend", both of you carrying a scram.

And whilst I accept in PVP against OTHER PVPers, sacrificing two midslots is a big penalty, if you are hunting mission runners, I doubt that it will gimp you that much.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.19 10:22:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Xendie
Grey area, even 5 stabs wont save you from dedicated people that wants to shoot you...
...everyone overcompensates for WCS users...
So WHY am I having SUCH a hard time getting people to accept just ONE WCS without penalty.

And the "offline it" argument has been covered several times...it needs to be active during the mission...that's the whole point.

And why is it "fit to fight, OR to run", but not "fit to fight, OR to scramble"? It seems one is forced to pay a very heavy penalty just for the pleasure of running away...what if I fit an ECM burst? That's more "defensive" than "offensive"...I could use it to break your lock and then run...but the WCS means I have to spend an age trying to target you first.

pigofparadise
Minmatar
Shadow Directorate
Posted - 2006.11.19 11:07:00 - [164]
 

Tbh, the one stab without penalty and each additional 75% thing is good.

Of course, i have never ever fitted a stab so i wouldnt know.
For the pirates losing all their monies, a decent pvpfrig costs round a mil depending on what ship you use. Ive owned t2 fitted frigs in my 1 mil rifter.

Timmy Bettenson
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.19 11:30:00 - [165]
 

its a great thing, stops combat ships using them

for example i saw a killmail of a interceptor with a fricking stab on it Shocked

if ur not prepared to lose the ship fit stabs, if not don't

simple

Comanche Banshee
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.19 11:40:00 - [166]
 

*Replying to the original post and those on the first page, I'm rather tired so I didn't read all 6 pages*

Yes the penalties to stabs will hurt a lot of people, but the truth is is that it will hurt them on both sides, pirate or not.

I've played both sides of the law and pirates use them a great deal, particularly to escape when they've bitten off more than they can chew. That said yes they are used by mission and plex runners (more the first) as well to escape, but in my opinion they benefit the pirates more.

But I'm not going to go into a long diatribe about why they benefit who more, the simple fact of the matter is is that this game is massive, there are more places to go in this game than in any other game ON THE FREAKIN PLANET. Yes, I'm saying you should go somewhere else, to one of the MANY systems that are not used in the game, you know the systems that the server shuts down after a certain amount of time of not being in use (the systems where the gate makes you wait in the traffic loop for 2 minutes to get in), and guess what, they are mostly 0.0 systems, with station, and some even have agents for missions and complexs that are probably better than the ones you're running now. All of which is secluded from major pirate traffic areas and will give you major minerals to mine, rats to kill and potentially lots of plexs and missions to run.

Now you give the inevitable question, "Why should I have to move?" Well seeing that at this point it's going to happen whether you like it or not you can either get rocked by pirates again as I am guessing has been happening to you already to make yall complain about it, or you can adapt, and adapting isn't always fun or easy but the sooner you do the better off you'll be.

I'm sorry if this is particularly rude for yall, but face the facts that it won't change and acting like you know more than the Devs won't help things. Everytime that something in the game starts to get WAY overused and/or abused it will get get a nerf to ensure stability and that players don't rely too much on one thing, WCS are just the latest such overused item to get nerfed, live with it and move on.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.19 14:59:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Comanche Banshee
potentially lots of plexs and missions to run.
Rule 1, as far as I can see...is "all low sec plexs are camped". You can't choose to be a PVE'er AND a low sec complex runner...the two things are incompatible, as you WILL have to battle through the campers first.

And, I am sure as soon as Kali delivers the "Oh, HELLO Mr Mission Runner" method of scanning, any system with a half decent quality agent will ALSO be camped.

And, whilst you are still drawing breath to shout it...yes, I know..."Risk vs Reward". But where in all this is the risk for the pirates who prey on the mission runners? They know that they are not going to have a hard time beating them, given that they are set up to do missions, and not for PVP. It's not valid to say that the pirates are ALWAYS at risk in 0.0...because they'd be at the same RISK even without the added REWARD of hunting the mission runners.

This whole "Risk vs Reward" argument seems to me to translate as "I PVP, and you don't, so I'm better than you". Unfortunately, CCP seem to agree. I wonder if they've counted the number of mission runners in high sec lately, and then multiplied it by $9.95?

CCP...don't take the easy way out by simply removing any PVE content to low sec. If you TRULY believe that high sec is making too much money for too little risk, then MAKE THE PVE ELEMENT RISKIER. No one mentions trade runs either, which make an absolute fortune...what are you going to do...move all the commodities to low sec too? Why not instead, re-introduce NPC gate pirates with enough strength to down a freighter?

umah
Posted - 2006.11.19 22:52:00 - [168]
 

The reason those systems are empty
is because the time vs reward factor
is so close to zero
its not even worth mentioning.

Originally by: Comanche Banshee

... the simple fact of the matter is is that this game is massive, there are more places to go in this game than in any other game ON THE FREAKIN PLANET. Yes, I'm saying you should go somewhere else, to one of the MANY systems that are not used in the game ...


Elderberry Whine
Posted - 2006.11.19 22:58:00 - [169]
 

Harr harr!

Spoken like a true pirate me maties...

If you can't beat off a pirate blob
while fighting fifty mission rats
you ain't worth a s**t at PvE ...

Risk vs reward, you take all the risk..

We pierats get the reward...

Yarrrrrrfrrrrrweerrrr!!!!

Originally by: Gordan Freeman
Originally by: Thomas Maleficus
You want the privledge of ratting or running missions in low sec? You earn it. That's why the rewards are so high. You have to work and sacrifice. It's not all free you know and tbh if you are in low sec ratting and running missions you have to accept you are going to have some losses but a decent player will make back those losses. Sorry you learn as much by losing as you do by winning. You know the risks of going low sec, deal with it. WCS are not a free pass and they should not be. There are ways of not getting shot in 0.0 anyway, join a corp/alliance or do some dimplomatic negotiations (iskies) for the priviledge to be there. I'm tired of people wanting free unhindered access to low sec/0.0 it wasn't free for those who have established their places there why should it be free for some noob corp mission runner who doesn't have to pay taxes to thier corp and need not care about their corp mates. Hurray for WCS nerf!!!!

here here

Maya Rkell
Third Grade Ergonomics
Posted - 2006.11.19 23:35:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Timmy Bettenson
its a great thing, stops combat ships using them


No, it dosn't.

It stops a lot of players from going into combat. There is a huge difference, and one which will dramatically slash the amount of PvP in the game.

Thomas Maleficus
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.19 23:36:00 - [171]
 

Just a thought here, but in regards to pirates getting all the reward while you get all the risk, brings back the point I already made, the pirates corped up support each other in thier corps and share the risk and benefits with thier corp mates. Second, pirates have to contend with other pirates and anti-pirates and biting off more than they can chew (does happen) so they have as much risk as you do with some mitigation due to the fact they are in a real corp. So yeah as I pointed out before the pirates have earned thier place in 0.0. I've been a carebear running missions and I am now a 0.0 pvp pilot, don't cry to me, I know how easy it is to make oodles of iskies in level 4 missions and get all kinds of LP goodies, you've got it good already, especially considering the low risk of .5> security. Knowing from experience you "plight" you'll get no sympathy from me and seriously if you are going to cry "I'll quit if you take away my security blanket" you need to remember it's a game, and if a game upsets you that much maybe you should not be playing then.

Roy Gordon
Caldari
Caldari Advanced Response Division
Power Of 3
Posted - 2006.11.20 00:43:00 - [172]
 

I must be one of the few people who actually agree with both view points here. I have been ganked in low sec space by a player pirate, not an experience I particularly liked but I had to live with it. Had I fitted a WCS, jumped into low sec, docked, took off the wcs, undocked, did the mission, docked, fitted a the wcs, undocked, warped to gate, got home etc I probably would not have had the nasty experience. But, faffing around in low sec is equally as dangerous, I could have been ganked coming out of the base there anyway.
It all basically boils down to there being in general two types of players in the game, those who enjoy PvP, and those who dont. And I doubt those in either camp will ever understand why those in the other camp dont enjoy their style of gaming.

Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Scorpanti Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:10:00 - [173]
 

Learn to NPC in a setup that can PvP.

No, seriously. How about you swap out thar them stabs for something that will help you in the fight. Your already going to have one up over the pirate because he has to fit and power a scrammer.Thats a disadvantage that makes up for a large difference in skill points.

Alternatively fit those new Kali-brand inertial stabilizers in your lows where the stabs currently reside. An industrial with a full wack of them aligns faster than an inty...im sure your ship will warp out before the guys jumping into your mission deadspace slow-boat to within 20km of you.

If your worried about getting jumped by multiple pirates while NPC'ing, then watch local and stop NPC'ing when a pirate raid breezes through.Set every pirate corp you see to negative standings and the new local in kali will be even better at providing free, overpowered intel to you.

Use your built in ship scanner periodically when mission running. Guess what, you can see people near you when they start to try and probe you. (currently 4.5 million KM is the danger zone for close range probes but this may change in Kali)

If your worried that a lone tackler will sneak into the system and hold you long enough for friends to jump in and nab you...good, you should be. Teamwork > solo every time.

I mean this with no insult implied, but if all you are interested in is PvE then eve really isn't the game for you.It would be better for yourself (less stress) if you quit and stop wasting your money on a game that (i hope) will never meet your ideal.


Radeberger
Caldari
I Care...... Seriously i do
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:24:00 - [174]
 

So have anyone taken the time to find out what systems this guy is doing missions in? Surely it can't be that difficult to pop his stabbed raven.

WCS nerf is very much needed, bygone to the stabbers and vagabonds with the low slots filled with stabs, now they'll fit modules that will actually make it perform better Cool.
Not to mention the macro ratters you sometimes see in 0.0, ravens stabbed to the brim.

Dragon Lord
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:26:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Dragon Lord on 20/11/2006 14:28:10
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 20/11/2006 14:27:34
the thing that bothers me is if they move all lvl4s to low sec as was mentioned in a dev blog a while ago. If the proposed scan prob improvements go ahead and the wcs's nerf is also put into effect then any low sec mission runner is pirate meat.
Why well lets say ur on a lvl4 and u engage the first group a few scrammer frigs scram u and a few bs's attack, so ur popping off the bs's as the frigs take ages with cruise or torps (releasing drones oftern mass aggros the room).
So there u are in the middile of a battle when u see a probe on ur scanner, better dock i would think, oh wait i cant the frigs have me scrammed, maybe a minute later a nice gang of pirates jump in pwned. Feck im dead.

Thats why its unfair without at least making it more difficult to find mission runners. The changes will make pirating mission runners in low sec v v easy. Maybe if they added a module u could use to disrupt the scan prob and prolong the time it takes to find u.

Ogodei Ra
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:29:00 - [176]
 

"It would be better for yourself (less stress) if you quit and stop wasting your money on a game that (i hope) will never meet your ideal."

Exactly. Just quit. Stop arguing. Apparently thats what everyone wants you to do. Thats what im going to do. I guess the less players, the better the game.

Theres plenty of fun, fair, pvp games to play. I tried some pirating in Eve, and to be honest, I thought it was kind of boring. I guess popping defenseless ships isnt exciting for me. I had the same problem in WoW when all the pvp moved into the battlegrounds. I just didnt get much satisfaction from ganking people in the world exping or herbing or whatever. Half the time they dont even fight back .... kinda like pirating in Eve.

Oh well, no big deal. Like I said, lots of other cool games to play. My prediction is that this will backfire on all the pirates. You will see even less targets/victims than before.

Although its funny that Eve is setting new population records .... with stabs in place. Im curious to see if they will break another population record anytime after the stab nerf.


Gokil
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:39:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only?

Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away...

This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider.




lol op

DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:53:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Grey Area


At least give the victims SOME chance to get away...




I'm not gonna read the whole thread cos it's too dam long but i think this statement sums up this complaint. If you serious think that without stabs you have no chance to get away then you just lost eve.

DE



Carnye Dubro
Caldari
The Nietzian Way
Posted - 2006.11.20 17:22:00 - [179]
 

I think the point of this discussion is this:

1. A combat ship that doesn't fit one stab will be totally susceptable to a single scrambler (once it hits).
2. If a combat ship fits one stab, it totally gimps it's combat capabilities.
3. Once warp scrambled, you're dead. (assuming a gang attack)

What Grey Area is proposing will make warp scrambling a little less the "I win" button. You could fit ONE stab without penalty allowing you a quick chance to get away before all of the blob descends on you and scrams you up tight.

Imagine if fitting a module for increasing your sensor strength vs ECM jamming applied the same penalties...

Leverton
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.20 17:46:00 - [180]
 

It is as simple as this.

If you intend to fight, then you don't fit warp core stabs.

If you intend to "run the blockade" as it were, then you do fit them.

That's it.


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only