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blankseplocked WCS - please reconsider
 
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Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.16 00:24:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 16/11/2006 00:25:10

I agree with you, Jason.
The risk vs. reward of low sec is "screwed up" right now only because it's too easy to make isk in high sec. They need to nerf high sec. When I first started a billion isk was a lot of isk, when I made my first billion I was "rich" but it took a lot of work. Now I see people spending multiple billions on characters, Estamel invulnerability fields, and etc. And I know it's because missions have gotten out of hand. So to answer the original poster's request: NO. And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great!

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:20:00 - [92]
 

Well, I'm sure you're all enjoying your "Bash a Carebear" session. That list is quite good, but no, I'm NOT making "more money than I ever did"...that was about 12 months ago, when mission rewards were easily ten times higher than they are now, and Torps were broken so they one-shotted frigates. Loot from missions is now so universally crap I don't sell it, I just refine it for the minerals...they go to my corp and we make stuff out of them.

I hope CCP are happy with your encouragement of players to quit...who knows, maybe you can get ALL the carebears to quit, and then you can be happy and all shoot at each other.

For about a week, until CCP run out of money.

Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:22:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 16/11/2006 00:25:10

I agree with you, Jason.
The risk vs. reward of low sec is "screwed up" right now only because it's too easy to make isk in high sec. They need to nerf high sec. When I first started a billion isk was a lot of isk, when I made my first billion I was "rich" but it took a lot of work. Now I see people spending multiple billions on characters, Estamel invulnerability fields, and etc. And I know it's because missions have gotten out of hand. So to answer the original poster's request: NO. And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great!


say you nerf high sec to oblivion.
what does that do? NOTHING
people will just go straight to 0.0 from empire like they do now. ( if they leave at all)

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:37:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Well, I'm sure you're all enjoying your "Bash a Carebear" session. That list is quite good, but no, I'm NOT making "more money than I ever did"...that was about 12 months ago, when mission rewards were easily ten times higher than they are now, and Torps were broken so they one-shotted frigates. Loot from missions is now so universally crap I don't sell it, I just refine it for the minerals...they go to my corp and we make stuff out of them.

I hope CCP are happy with your encouragement of players to quit...who knows, maybe you can get ALL the carebears to quit, and then you can be happy and all shoot at each other.

For about a week, until CCP run out of money.

Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it.


So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear?

I said it before. I am not a pirate. So your "you can all shoot each other now" remark is just weak. You can make money now and you can make even more ISK in Kali with the same risk...WTF are you complaining about? Do you run missions in Empire with three stabs now? I doubt it. If you have been here since retail you would know that the "this will kill Eve" comment has been said so many times it is getting old. Loot is crap because so many people are putting it on the market from low risk missions that it does not sell anymore. Making items from loot is good, free ISK. Again, what is the problem? You don't have to go to low sec and you will still make money? What's the problem? Warp to 0 offsets the nerf to WCS. What's the problem? Really. I don't understand what this nerf means to you.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:39:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
Keep the isk the same but change the loot dropped. It's killing the T1 module market.
Missed this and worth a passing comment. If by this you mean just take out all the T1 crap that drops, and only have a can drop for something that is rare and/or worthwhile...sure, I'd support that.

The ISK I'd lose from refining all that junk (it doesn't all get sold, 99% of it is recycled) I'd make up in time for not going back to loot a can that turned out to contain another civilian shield booster. Would be nice to know in advance that opening a can would actually be worth the effort.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:46:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear?
Jason, important though you are, you are NOT the only person in this thread...

Originally by: DiuxDium
Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly.


Originally by: Alowishus
Rolling Eyes As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner?

That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit.


Originally by: Jason Kildaro
So stop with the little man gets boned crap.


Originally by: Nicocat
Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down.


Originally by: Jason Kildaro
Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall.


Originally by: Alowishus
And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great!


I think that's a fairly wide range of carebear bashing.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.16 02:02:00 - [97]
 

It's not carebear bashing, it's whiner bashing. A lot of carebears don't wine and thus I do not hope they quit. There are carebears in this game who are smart and don't ask to be ganked. I like them, they can stay. Whiner bashing. Not carebear bashing.

Phenom Fighter
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.11.16 02:04:00 - [98]
 

You'll just have to learn to play the game thats all... be paranoid Twisted Evil

Anyway im just wondering.... Ur in ur deadspace right... a gang of pirates scan you down (im guessing 3au's eventually) which will most likely lead them 30-60km from you if not more... you cant cloak or use MWD in deadspace.
How the HELL does he get you?!! omfg!! dude, sort it

Sovereign533
Caldari
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.16 02:07:00 - [99]
 

come on... low sec isn't safe... and isn't supposed to be safe...
wanna go there, live with it... don't like what might happen, stay in empire...

goodby4u
Valor Inc.
Valor Empire
Posted - 2006.11.16 02:21:00 - [100]
 

Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too.

That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you.

Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.

Dark Kavar
Caldari
Aionios Diadochi
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.16 03:00:00 - [101]
 

I don't mind at all that wcs are getting nerfed, never use them anyway. I actually enjoy the risk that comes from low sec, otherwise it gets boring. And if you actually pay attention in local and be a bit cautious you will usually never get ganked, I actually managed to mine by myself in a retriever with no wcs in low sec for a couple of weeks without getting ganked. So don't whine that you have to put in some effort

Naal Morno
ECP Rogues
Dusk and Dawn
Posted - 2006.11.16 03:10:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Krulla
Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06
You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu.


... Grow some balls tbfh?

I do level 4 missions in lowsec. Not only do I do them in lowsec, I do them in Amamake. For those who don't know Amamake, it's basically the most pirate infested system in the game.

Doing missions in lowsec is almost completely safe, as long as you have a brain and know how to use it.


WEll, brain has nothing to do with it...a broken scan probe system however does a lot.

In Kali1 the probe system is much improved and I think you will find yourself in pod a lot if you keep doing things the same you were to date...

Rockbox
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2006.11.16 04:18:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06
You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu.


Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship Confused

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.16 04:46:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Rockbox
Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06
You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu.


Why would you put wcs on a mission running ship Confused


So you didn't have to fight PCs. Why else? If other PCs didn't jump mission runners while they were doing their missions no mission runner would want to mount them.

Perani
Posted - 2006.11.16 05:49:00 - [105]
 

There are two issues that were either directly addressed or indirectly alluded to that have since faded into the background a few pages ago.

(1) Why should ships be allowed to fit scramblers without penalty?

(2) Why does watching local have to be part of anyone's pvp experience? Local is a chatting tool abused as a source of intelligence. Or am I mistaken, that local is meant to be the intelligence tool that it is today?

Elderberry Whine
Posted - 2006.11.16 05:50:00 - [106]
 

The point is that he ain't coming to low sec for a gank,

He's coming cause he supposed to be "forced" there for the so-called
high rewards of low-sec hunting.

Well, if the rewards was so great,
he would go there without WCS's

As it is,

Since Low-Sec is crap,
with hordes of pirates waiting to pick ya clean,
why would he go ther without stabs?

So he won't go,
and low-sec will be even more empty.

Pirates have the advantage in low-sec
because they don't care about their empire standing
so they lock u up
and get the jump on ya.

So there's no reason for a carebear to go in low sec now,
since he can't stab out of the stacked deck
setup for the pirates.

If he could engage fairly without a security hit,
then yeh,
why would he need a stab?

So the stab gives him a fair out of the situation.

Otherwise, he gets toasted because
he's already in lag,
and behind in damage.

You pierates all know that
so you want stabs out.

Will you got ur wish,
after a few easy kills,
no empire carebear is gonna be stupid enough
to come back low-sec after the stabs are gone.


Originally by: goodby4u
Keep in mind im no pirate,i pvp in 0.0 sometimes but never in just lowsec...I live in highsec too.

That being said i like what they are doing to WCS,i mean if you wanna fight dont fight and run whenever anybody comes near you.

Oh and grey,mission running in lowsec will now mean you have a risk of dying,you had a risk before but the solo pirates couldnt kill you,now somebody has a fair chance at killing you and your mad about it?If the ability to be completely safe is what you seek then theres a highsec for a reason.

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.16 06:21:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12
So let's look at the other side of the coin.

Make the rules and mechanics allow a mission runner to do whatever they want where ever they want. After all, why should you play this game the way the PvPers want?

You should be able to log on night after night and run missions in peace. Unnerf stabs so that they become a must have device that allows you to travel and make isk without risk. This would make mission running a more viable profession and now you are free to make money at will. You would not have to buy items becuase it is safe to loot a mission. You don't have to buy ships because you can gather LP to have faction battleships to make your mission running even easier. You don't have to mine because you can recycle loot. You don't even have to use the stabs much anymore because it will force pirates to 0.0. You don't have to buy transports because a hauler is safe. You don't need friends to help you on these missions. You don't need corps because what is the purpose in having to band together? You don't have to worry about implants because LP will get you those too. So now you can skill faster so that you can run better equipment to run more missions which will allow you more LP to get more equipment and ships which will allow you run more missions.

Heck, why buy clones because you should not be have to worry about being killed? You just want to relax and run missions after your long day at work. And after a while we will have a game full of mission runners who can peaceably run missions without having to worry about those bad ol' pie rats.

What then? Oh yea, whine to CCP about how boring the game is and how they need to introduce more challenging AI in the game to make your missions more interesting and have a reason to band together. Then whine about how there is nothing to do in this game but grind missions. Then we can whine about how crafting is useless because there is no incentive to make anything. Then we can whine to CCP about how we need to introduce something for the advanced players and get bigger ships to counter the new NPC's and AI. But then the new ships will be to strong so you will whine about how there is no new content and how CCP should introduce more missions and new NPC's.

Hmmmm.

Can you see where this is going?

Death Merchant
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2006.11.16 06:35:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:25:12
So let's look at the other side of the coin.< good stuff>




Damn youre goodVery Happy


Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.16 06:37:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:42:41
Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 16/11/2006 06:38:23
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Jason Kildaro
So I bring up points to counter your arguement and now I'm bashing a carebear?
Jason, important though you are, you are NOT the only person in this thread...

Originally by: DiuxDium
Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly.


You got me here. That shot was fired first. But only after 5 -6 posts tried to reason with you.
Originally by: Alowishus
Rolling Eyes As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner?

That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit.


Quoting out of context 4TW! Your post previously had said that you fitted stabs to fend off the "12 year old pirates"

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
So stop with the little man gets boned crap.


And this was in response to your post that stated that there is no content for the non-PvPer. I listed 14 things to prove you wrong.

Originally by: Nicocat
Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down.


Unwarranted, I give you this one

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall.


This is not bashing. This is fact.

Originally by: Alowishus
And additionally, your life is way too easy already, and I only hope the WCS nerf is a first step toward it getting a lot harder. And if you want to whine or even quit, great!


Maybe the whine or quit comment was a little harsh.

I think that's a fairly wide range of carebear bashing.


Like a post before me put it. It's not carebear bashing. No one cares about the fact that you do not wish to engage in Eve's other content. But your adversity to their playstyle affects their playstyle. Just like their playstyle affects yours. It is impossible to grant you your wish without intruding upon others.

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.16 06:51:00 - [110]
 

Grey Area. I hope this does not look like I am atacking you. I am not. But what I do want to bring to thetable is that the PvP aspect of this game brings things to the game that are unique to Eve and makes Eve the game that it is. There is other games that appeal to the more pleasant side of things. And while I hope that one day you stay in Eve (heck, I would even extend a hand to my corp!) I just wish that you would see that there is other games that offer what you want. But please don't try to make this game that way.

Spanker
Bermuda Syndrome Industries
Posted - 2006.11.16 08:09:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec
First of all, who uses stabs on their mission ship? Would royally screw everything up. Secondly, any single person attacking my missioning raven would probably be turned in to dust so fast it isn't even funny. Or yes actually, it would be funny. If anything I'll start using a scrambler just to make a point.

So no I don't think mission runners will move from lowsec anytime soon!

Patric Murphy
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.16 09:00:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Feel free to bash me in my absence...I won't be here to read about it.



Can I have your stuff?

Embarassedsorry, couldn't help my self.


Naran Darkmood
Gallente
BlackSite Prophecy
101010 Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.16 09:22:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn

You would need 5 pionts of scram to hold someone with 4 wcs. Thats part of the issue you need one more point than stab and in amar, alotof minmitar and even caldari ships that gets hard to achieve real fast. on a ship with 3 mids or less the setup will be severely gimped fitting a couple scrams. EVE is not a solo game one needs other people for things but, a dedicated tackling ship should not be a neccesity every time you want to pvp.


Hmm, how about bring a friend. (But, yea, only mission runners should have to do that, right).
Pick a fight the other one wants to fight as well. (Yes, this means you might loose).

For some reason, I get the feeling, everybody uses the same arguments for boths ides.
Maybe we mission runners should start a thread for stacking nerfing Warp scramblers ...
decrease effictve range when you fit more than one.

Back to the point I think the WCS nerf is over the top. At least one WCS should be free to fit with seriously gimping for ship in combat. You might disagree, but i simply disagree with you.

FoRGyL
Beer and Kebabs
Pirate Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.16 09:34:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Jason Kildaro
I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too.
Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.


ShockedShockedShocked

Geee..all I say is Lv4 in Hisec!!

The enorums reward vs risk u get, and u whine to acctually have to use your head now and again???
Even if you do get caught don't you make enough isk to regain it like directly anyway?

Common ..look alittle at the hole picture atleast.

And to be frank, some sacrifice must be made to get were you want, even if you have made an error in the past.

-out-

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:20
Edited by: Laboratus on 16/11/2006 10:02:03
All in all, at the moment the warp scambling system is borked.
You should not be able to stop someone warping with a single 20km distrupter.
It's way too easy and painless. You should at least have to use a 7.5km or two 20kms.

This unneeded WCS nerf further aggravates this problem.
Ships have racial propulsion types and strenghts. At some point the system was meant to use them, but it no longer does, if it has ever done so.
So, why not use those strenghts and make warp scambling chance based to get rid of this
Very _lame_ distrupt/web/jam that leaves you just wobbling about like a lame duck.
It's lame, and not interesting. At least make them use a dictor.

Chance based. Thank you.

Gix Firebrand
Caldari
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.16 10:02:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Gix Firebrand on 16/11/2006 10:03:01
As an old school UO player, I approve of the "nerf".

It just makes you play smarter. Grey Area's whining is just from lack of experience in MMPORGs..


Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Gunship Diplomacy
Posted - 2006.11.16 10:21:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only?

Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away...

This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider.




If you fit your ship for pvp ganking its more then fair to force you not to use wcs. If you dont like the risks of pvp be a traveller it's as simple as that.

tiller
THE PILLAGE
Posted - 2006.11.16 10:35:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 19:31:06
You'll certainly see a LOT less mission runners in low sec. I thought CCP wanted exactly the opposite? In fact, it's going to worsen the lag problem in Empire...people will move away from agents who even MIGHT send them below 0.5...bye bye Vuorassi...hello Motsu.


You also won't see many solo pirates taking on big risky targets.

PVP will be greatly reduced as people won't be able to afford sustained losses once wallet runs dry. (and it will)

Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.16 12:10:00 - [119]
 

The problems is that WCS' have been boarderline exploited in PvP for a long time and something needed to change. I will be honest with you though, in Mission running, fast lock times are not a major issue, and while range can be an issue in some spacific cases, those can be overcome by simply turning the mod off. What needed to stop was people fitting setups with WCS' on and going out and killing people with it.
Saddly for you, Eve is a pvp game, it started as a pvp game and the older community wishes it to stay that way. With warp to 0kms, and WCS' and whatnot, Eve is trying to make things more palitable for the mission runner/miner type. Last I checked Eve was not a mining sim or a mission/quest game - these things are there to support your income for pvp. And while I understand that some people don't like pvp, it is something you have to learn to like, or find a game which is more controled.

I am against the WoWification of eve, and wcs nurf was a good indication from CCP that they agreed.

Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
Posted - 2006.11.16 12:47:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
At least make the penalty only apply to modules AFTER the first. the current penalty makes it simply impossible to fit any sort of WCS to anything other than a hauler...in fact, if you're going to do this, why not just make the modules hauler-only?

Pirates are going to have a field day...I think you've over-reacted to their whining AGAIN...I accept they were being abused...but a penalty for more than one would address that just as well - I'd even be happy with a 75% penalty for each module AFTER the first. At least give the victims SOME chance to get away...

This nerf makes the WCS almost redundant, and by the same reasoning, the two point warp scrambler pretty much redundant. Please reconsider.


You can fit to run or fit to fight but not both; where is the problem?


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