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blankseplocked WCS - please reconsider
 
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madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:23:00 - [61]
 

I dont get you, why dont you fit one stab than

93 km lockingrange on raven, fit a named stab and you end up with 50ish range...doesnt seem like a big deal...

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:24:00 - [62]
 

I see your point Grey Area, but I do think that even fitting one stab should be 'punishable'- Just not perhaps so harshly. Mission running is as viable a form of game play as PvP in any guise and I can see how a 50% penalty would totally gimp NPC setups.

Perhaps as a modification of your idea, the penalties for the first WCS should still be in place but just not be as harsh... say 25-30% and rising for every other stab added thereafter? Tangible difference but workable...

Just a thought.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:26:00 - [63]
 

madaluap...it's not the range so much, it's the lock time...50% penalty to that AS WELL

arte...well at least someone's THINKING about it...that idea is worth discussing at least (hope you brought flameproof underwear though...you may not get as roasted as me, but I'd expect you to get a little charred at least)

BlackMoon Thrawn
Stimulus
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:31:00 - [64]
 

Quote:

I detect a little flaw here...you shouldn't need a friend every time you want to PVP...but you MUST take a friend if you want to mission in low sec.



No, you only have to take a friend if you want the safety numbers provide. If they are all mission fit that safety is debateable anyway.

If ccp allows 1 wcs on every ship with no penalty then one would need 2 points on every ship unless he had a dedicated tackler and generally those ships are fairly weak anyway. The point is haveing to carry 2 scramblers unnesecerly gimps alot of ships. While you may enjoy the pve side of the game it is designed as a pvp game and ballanced as such. Level 3 missions in highsec are about the best money someone should make without pvp risk coming into play. By pvp I mean in the market and combat.

Tammarr
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:37:00 - [65]
 

Due to the HUGE nerf to wcs I'am a bit sad.
I was hoping for a 20-15% ish nerf to range/speed with named giving less ofc.

Now with this HUGE nerf I simply said when it was annoucend and have begun the following:
No more ganksquads in big alliance spaces, except blobs which you'll have ample warning about. =No risk in big alliances space for rating, mission running, mining. No need to constantly watch local for enemies because, they wont make it without wcs, with the risk of losing at the third jump, and possibly no way(in real 0.0 space compared to to empire 0.0 with free for all stations) to unfit them on their way in.
Mind you I'am talking big alliances here mostly because its the easiest way.
So, due to this and mining being quite profitable I started a new account and is going directly up to covetor going for nice mining skills, then I'll join with a bob or ascn corp and be happily making a wee bit of money without risking anything, sure 0.0 rats *laugh*
Sure I dont like mining but I can sure go mine when theres no added hazzle of watching local all the time.

I'am sad for the huge nerf because I feel it will eliminate any small gangs going in on hit & run(Means not losing ship and the ability to run away if chosing to)

I'am however quite sure CCP likes me, I've got another account just for this after all =)









Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:41:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: BlackMoon Thrawn
Quote:
Put heavy penalties on those ships that mount WCS, but also make it so that only dedicated scrambling ships (anyone ever here of an interdictor?) are required to actually scram. Then have counter-modules that your opponents' ECCM ships can use to counter the effects of your scramblers.



Shocked so you want interdictors in lowsec AND wcs to be as effective as eccm?


I put the full idea in this thread since it is a suggestion:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=426616

DiuxDium
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:42:00 - [67]
 

Wahh, I don't want to have to look at local. Is all I see honestly.

1) Remove Lvl 4 agents from Hi-Sec
2) Nerf WCS

In my time in 0.0 and lowsec, i've never died a death where I couldn't say "Damn, i'm an idiot", I should have X'd when Y occured. If you're unwilling to watch local, I honestly don't believe you should be able to farm billions of isk doing missions afk.

I've ran lvl 4's in hisec in my raven, there not enough of a challenge to be worth the millions I made. Dirty money I say.

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 21:54:00 - [68]
 

I just wonder if mr. grey area is actually realizing that fitting 2 wcs migth bring raven to blasterthron combat rangesTwisted Evil.

See you in low security systems YARRRR!!

xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:00:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
madaluap...it's not the range so much, it's the lock time...50% penalty to that AS WELL

arte...well at least someone's THINKING about it...that idea is worth discussing at least (hope you brought flameproof underwear though...you may not get as roasted as me, but I'd expect you to get a little charred at least)


You cant be serious. That NPC is not going anywhere in the extra 50% lock time it will take you. However, your unwilling PvP combatent will have an extra 50% more time to warp away before getting blown to bits. That is going to save a lot of carebears right there from low sec snipers alone.

This nerf will not affect your isk farming activities, so fear not. Haulers and travelers will not be affected either. If they get into a situation that 8 wcs cant get away from (read interdictor), they will just log off as they already do any way.

I for one am so looking forward to seeing a lot fewer stabbed up phagabonds and ravens running around. So quit your gripping. This is one of the best changes ever made to the game.

Oh and if you are quitting over this, can I have your stuff?Laughing

Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:01:00 - [70]
 

Grey,

First, why would it help to allow to use one WCS without penalty? If that's the case all the gate camps would probably figure out to use at least two scrams--what are you gaining?

Second, I travel through low-sec alone all the time and don't really understand what you're crying about--I've only been killed a few times, and in each case it's because I made some dumb mistake.

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:09:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Grey Area on 15/11/2006 22:11:31
I got ganked on a mission. A while ago, and yes I DID think **** I'm an idiot, because I had NOT fitted a WCS. The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate. I have no problem losing ships to people who PREPARE...this nerf removes that need to prepare...yes, it was broken before...this just moves the slider too far in the opposite direction.

If it was ONE NPC who wasn't going anywhere I wouldn't be so bothered. The fact that there are about 10 or 12 in a spawn, all getting closer to me as the "locking" timer tick slowly down...and the fact that I was twice as close to them as before becasue of the range nerf...THAT is a cause for concern

LUKEC...the point is, you WON'T see me in low sec.

Farming level 4's for billions...OK, MY turn to get annoyed...there are people you know, who just run the mission and then do the next one...I have NEVER left a mission open to come back after it has respawned. Thus I do not earn "billions of ISK", and even in MY pimped out ship I'd challenge ANYONE to do a mission "AFK" Rolling Eyes.

Phelan Lore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:10:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher

Pirates in Low sec get first srtike capabilities. Can I kill the pirate if he was in 0.0? usually yes, becuase I can dictate the engagement terms, use my faster lock time, ect. can I kill him with gate guns on me? no.


Huh? Most pirates that are any threat are outlaws.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:26:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Grey Area
The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate.Rolling Eyes.


Rolling Eyes As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner?

That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit.

Harsibash
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:51:00 - [74]
 

Use Scanner, Use Local - L2P.

failing that buy and assault frigate, very few people **** with you in them, plus they can do up to lvl 4's

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:55:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Phelan Lore
Originally by: Audri Fisher

Pirates in Low sec get first srtike capabilities. Can I kill the pirate if he was in 0.0? usually yes, becuase I can dictate the engagement terms, use my faster lock time, ect. can I kill him with gate guns on me? no.


Huh? Most pirates that are any threat are outlaws.


Sniggardly accepts pirates that aren't any threat?
Every time I got popped by a snig, they were > -.5 sec status.
Embarassed

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:58:00 - [76]
 

This carebear versus pirate thing gets old. I am not a pirate but when carebears come on the forums and start the insults and how gamestyles are pushed on them because of pirates it makes me wonder. It makes me wonder if you looked at any game information at all before coming here. Did you not read posts like this prior to playing Eve? Have you not read numerous dev posts on how they envision the game? I have said this before but it bears repeating. Do you buy a game like Quake and complain about the flag being stolen?

Sorry about that but it just makes me wonder. I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too. Anyway stop looking at changes in a vaccuum. Pirates have as just a much of a problem with stabs as you. I can see you don't hang in low sec that much. Pirates have just as much as a reason to be nervous. I can't tell you why but any pirate here knows. We may also get warp to 0 implemented too. That hurts pirates a lot. As for mission running....I don't know what the problem is here. You got ganked on a mission? Well that is a rare instance. Most pirates don't sit around probing empty space to find mission runners. It takes a while and it's not as easy as belt hunting and sniping. There is a lot of risk for the pirate too.

By the way you are mission running in a missile ship. You should be watching the overview and should have plenty of warning if a pirate shows up. You don't even need the stab! If the pirate probes out and warps right on top of you then he did a lot of work to get you....I would probably convo the guy and ask for tips!

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:05:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Grey Area
The one WCS is just to discourage the 12 yr old casual pirate.Rolling Eyes.


Rolling Eyes As opposed to the 12-year-old casual whiner?

That kind of talk really is what defines MMO players whiney sore losers. The ones who imply that different styles of play indicate IRL inferiority. CCP told you what this game would be like, a PvP game, you don't like PvP yet you play anyway and we get to listen to you whine about it. Please please please quit.


Steady fella.
He's seen a threat to a style of gameplay and like hundreds of players before him, is requesting a modification to that upcoming change. Nothing wrong with that, whether you agree with him or not. If you read back, the insults to his real life character occured first cos he called for a change to the nerf. You are now as bad as you percieve him to be.

He has a point, the change is harsh. He isn't the first to propose a relaxing of the proposed change. Personally, I agree the change should go ahead but perhaps with a sliding scale of penalty the more you apply the WCS.

If it goes ahead as planned it doesn't make one jot of difference to me as I only fit them for travelling purposes only but that doesn't mean I have to totally disagree with him either. Back of and argue constructively or just don't reply.Cool

Montaire
Krusual Developments
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:05:00 - [78]
 

So let me preface this by saying Im a HUGE carebear. I have 13 million skill points and cant fire a single weapon nor fly anything above a Frigate. Im not a crazy pirate.

I think the heart of this issue is risk vs reward and the true nature of PVP. I was once told "Monty, EVERYTHING in this game is PVP. Building, ratting, mining, missions, fleetcombat - everything is PVP" and they were right.

Some of the best rewards in this game are only available for those people willing to fight for them. High end complex's, good ore's, top shelf rats - all available only in lawless space. As a mission runner you have to make a choice, if you want the high end missions they simply are not available in high security space.

You make a choice, a choice to go into the lawless space of low security. A place where Concord cannot protect you. This is RISKY, its absolutly not safe. In fact if it were up to me, I wouldnt go there, lowsec is a hole :)

So what your experiencing is the VERY heart of EVE, its one of the reasons we like this game. We get to choose what to do, and if we make the harder choice we get better rewards. I know plenty of level 3 missions out there where you will never have to worry about using a WCS.

And if you want to do those level 4 missions get a friend, put him in a HAC and have him guard you. If pirates try to gank you - kill them. If you cant kill them, hire some Mercs to do it for you. Spend 200m on a 1 week Wardec from one of the MC corps, guarenteed to make some stupid gate gankers urinate themselves.

You have a lot of choices in EVE, its the natuer of the beast. Starting soon having a WCS fitted is a choice not to fight.


Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:06:00 - [79]
 

Just to go on the record here, I am all for the WCS changes. Makes it much easier to secure my little patch of 0.0. I just completley fail to see why in the world anyone would ever go into low sec willingly? The risk vs reward is so fubar. high sec has low risk, decent reward. low sec is low reward, high risk, and 0.0 if you are friends with the local alliance is very high reward, low risk. The last time I got popped in 0.0 when I wasn't looking for a fight was months ago. You spend so much time avoiding pirates in low sec that you would have been better off mining veld in 1.0. ugh

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:07:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Grey Area

LUKEC...the point is, you WON'T see me in low sec.

Farming level 4's for billions...OK, MY turn to get annoyed...there are people you know, who just run the mission and then do the next one...I have NEVER left a mission open to come back after it has respawned. Thus I do not earn "billions of ISK", and even in MY pimped out ship I'd challenge ANYONE to do a mission "AFK" Rolling Eyes.


1. you can die in hi. sec as well YARRRR!!

2. i did quite alot missions afk in domi

3. you can farm lvl4 missions without repeating them (cough dg loot on gurista extravaganza etc)

LUKEC
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:09:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher
Just to go on the record here, I am all for the WCS changes. Makes it much easier to secure my little patch of 0.0. I just completley fail to see why in the world anyone would ever go into low sec willingly? The risk vs reward is so fubar. high sec has low risk, decent reward. low sec is low reward, high risk, and 0.0 if you are friends with the local alliance is very high reward, low risk. The last time I got popped in 0.0 when I wasn't looking for a fight was months ago. You spend so much time avoiding pirates in low sec that you would have been better off mining veld in 1.0. ugh


So very true. I haven't been in empire or low sec for months apart from occasional jump with carrier, dock, take stuff off the escrow, back to places where I can shoot every annoying person Twisted Evil

Grey Area
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:19:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Jason Kildaro
I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too.
Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:30:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 15/11/2006 23:31:19
Originally by: Grey Area
for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.


For some of us? Try ALL of us. Every community has dealt with change. The game is a learning experience for the Devs as well as the players. When I first joined the game large turrets could hit moving frigs and pop them in one shot, objects got in the way of missiles (including friendly ships!), frigates could fit Cruise Missiles, you could put multiple MWD on a BS and go 8000m/s, less than four multispec jammers could never, ever jam a BS... good god, you name it. Everyone is forced to adapt to change. Do you know how mad I was when they decided my Kestrel could no longer volley kill an Osprey or Hauler? Pretty mad. But in the end it was a good and reasonable change to take Cruise Missiles away from frigs. I got used to it. A change that may affect your "style of play" is inevitable in a game that has evolved as much as Eve has. Adapt or die (or quit, PLEASE).

Phenom Fighter
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:31:00 - [84]
 

just like everything in the game, there are risks involved. Hell if it was up too me all level 4 mission should be in low sec at least!! They grant too much isk to be a 'safe' choice.
Every otherway has risks. 0.0 ratting/mining, trading (anything decent need 0.0/lowsec travelling) etc...

Ok so you use a BS too do your missions? now with the new HP boost, how the hell is a sniping BS, hell even 10 sniping bs gunna kill you before you warp?

Montaire
Krusual Developments
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:34:00 - [85]
 

Making the choice to run level 4 missions is up to you.

You are deciding to go to a place you know isnt safe. Getting blown up from time to time is the price.

The reward goes up as the risk does.

My honest advice to you though, get out of lowsec, its the armpit of eve. Give a try at bieng in a 0.0 alliance.


Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Jason Kildaro
I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too.
Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:45:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Jason Kildaro on 15/11/2006 23:49:24
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Jason Kildaro
I personally research a game before I pay monthly for it, maybe I'm just being presumptious and assume everyone else does too.
Hmmm, back when I started playing (18th May 2003) there wasn't exactly a lot of material to "research"...and that's partly my point...a lot of stuff has changed, and largely the nerf bat is most often waved at those who do NOT PVP. Yes, it was always stated that this was primarily a PVP gaem. but back a few years, allowances were made (and IMO, those allowances are what has given EVE it's longevity). but with each patch the non-PVP'ers get less and less to do. Eventually, we have to decided if this IS the game we want to play...for some of us, it is rapidly becoming a differnet game to the one we subscribed to.


Change is good. It prevents the game play from getting old. Since you you have played since retail you should also know you non-PvPers got....

1. Harder hitting and longer ranged sentry guns to protect you.

2. Transport ships with some awesome stats to protect your goods.

3. More profitable missions.

4. More mining vessels and modules to increase yeilds.

5. Lower end ships were boosted to survive longer.

6. Loot tables were adjusted to give you more power on the market after the mission.

7. Market changes and highway changes to allow regional markets that increase your ability to play the markets.

8. Map options to allow you to make safe routes through space.

9. Introduced ice.

10. Made more deadspace missions to give you more security on your missions.

11. Updated tutorials that explains risks and ways around them.

12. Introduced more routes through low sec space to allow you to go around gate camps.

13. Escrow system that allows more free trade.

14. They put in more NPC types for more profitable rat hunting in more regions.

And now CCP is going to introduce...

1. Contracts.

2. Boost hitpoints on ships.

3. Introduce more professions

4. Give out invention.

5. More missions.

6. Warp to 0.

7. Standings in local.

So stop with the little man gets boned crap. Eve is getting bigger because CCP is introducing more stuff for EVERYBODY. If you truly have been here since retail you must see that you make more money now per day then you ever did. And you did it because of the changes CCP made. Look at the new citizens forums. New people don't ask what to do, they ask what is the best thing to do. A sure sign that there is many options.


Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:54:00 - [87]
 

Good post Jason, nice list.

Nicocat
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:55:00 - [88]
 

Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down. One stab won't save you, 9 times out of 10, since it goes like this:

Covops probes
Covops warps to Stupid Raven #117261
Covops is now warp-in point to death squad

Hell, you don't even need a death squad if the covops has a scram of its own. There's two points right there.

The stab nerf is very, very needed, and I'm exceedingly happy about it as a duelist and occasional pirate ;)

(By the by, my own favorite escape trick, the ECM-throw-sand-in-their-eyes gag, is nerfed too. Boo hoo, find a new trick)

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.16 00:02:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Nicocat
Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down.


I disagree. I think mission runners should be allowed to make billions in 1.0 systems, risk free, to get faction ships to sell so they can buy other factions ships, make them uber and save even more damsels. That's clearly what CCP envisioned: A bunch of rich mission runners who interact with nobody except to whine or trade faction BS.

Jason Kildaro
Minmatar
Red Dwarf Mining Corps
Posted - 2006.11.16 00:13:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Nicocat
Stupid, whorish little mission runners SHOULD die after all the effort it takes to probe their dumb, putzy asses down.


I disagree. I think mission runners should be allowed to make billions in 1.0 systems, risk free, to get faction ships to sell so they can buy other factions ships, make them uber and save even more damsels. That's clearly what CCP envisioned: A bunch of rich mission runners who interact with nobody except to whine or trade faction BS.


You need to use you sarcasm tags, Alowishus. You might get misquoted Laughing

I posted this somewhere else but I think mission running in high sec needs a nerf. Keep the isk the same but change the loot dropped. It's killing the T1 module market. All of these modules are placed on the market below mineral cost and it killed the T1 producers. Funny how mission runners complain about no content yet they contribute highly to the market downfall.


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