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Himeko
Gallente
Peace Million Foundation
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.11.15 17:38:00 - [91]
 

as a damn drone user... totally agree!

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.15 22:15:00 - [92]
 

Best idea I've heard in a long time. Perfect.

Would really allow Devs to have a better control over balancing drone ships, without having that arbitrary limit of "can't have more drone bay, or you'll increas it's DPS....".

/signed

Cold Sweat
Posted - 2006.11.15 23:44:00 - [93]
 

I like the idea but two things come to mind:

1) why would we increase drone bays of some ships while not on others? If the game is supposedly balanced, the change should be the same across the board. Apoc's and Geddon's, megathron's, tempests and ravens don't have spare m'3 if they want to maximise their drone dps so they would all benifit from this equally.

2) why not just increase the durability of drones so we stop losing them? I guess if we want killing a players drones off to be a valid tactic, I like your idea because it makes killing off drones a bit less powerful and it adds to game play when fighting NPC because it's so damn annoying when you lose one.

-CS

Aphotic Raven
Gallente
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:08:00 - [94]
 

Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 16/11/2006 01:09:22
Originally by: Deadeye Dave
I agree to be honest earlier I was flying around in my Curse thinking it would be nice to get more spare drones without increasing DPS to overpower the ship.




Its already overpowered.
Only ship in space needing a nos nerf with kali. All other nos should be left alone.
Also im not attacking you, just the curse... seeing how hard it pwns anything thats not passive (so anything thats not a ferox...) makes me wonder if it is indeed balanced... then again i have not seen it take on other t2 cruisers... but still.. cap = 0 after 2 - 3 cycles and that is not fun pvp.

Aphotic Raven
Gallente
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.16 01:13:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 16/11/2006 01:14:30
Originally by: Cold Sweat
I like the idea but two things come to mind:

1) why would we increase drone bays of some ships while not on others? If the game is supposedly balanced, the change should be the same across the board. Apoc's and Geddon's, megathron's, tempests and ravens don't have spare m'3 if they want to maximise their drone dps so they would all benifit from this equally.

2) why not just increase the durability of drones so we stop losing them? I guess if we want killing a players drones off to be a valid tactic, I like your idea because it makes killing off drones a bit less powerful and it adds to game play when fighting NPC because it's so damn annoying when you lose one.

-CS

Yay for making drones harder to kill, but... if anything... i think other bcs should be nerfed away from carrying 5 heavys, this is the dominix's thing and with 5 heavys from another BS hitting you.. you have 40% (lets not go crazy with BS 5...) more drone damage... +NOS +a blaster maybe... and that is not fun to try and tank a blasterthron with cap injectors and blasters AND 5 heavy drones.. i really dont see the sense in giving them that much extra power... i think the drone bay was intended to allow them to ward off smaller ships with light drones and mediums... not pwn with heavys.
This points system might help balance this.

Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2006.11.16 04:20:00 - [96]
 

Just spotted this. Shocked

Brilliant! I approve of this idea.


Gadfium Horza
Gallente
Tides of Silence
Posted - 2006.11.16 04:35:00 - [97]
 

Genius /signed

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.16 13:37:00 - [98]
 

I fear this slipping away without a Dev ever casting eyes on it..............

Could a dev post with "read it" so I can not have to bump it 3 times a day? You don't have to have an opinion on it, just that you've read it Razz

migwar
Xenobytes
Posted - 2006.11.16 13:51:00 - [99]
 

it does sound like a nice idea, But i would like to see a reload timer when launching a replacment drone,

Agun
Posted - 2006.11.16 14:24:00 - [100]
 

I think this is a terrible idea. The whole point of this is for backup drones and versatility, yes? Why should all ships get such a thing? Sure would be nice to have implemented, but what one may like may not be best for game balance. Yes yes we all understand its not about increasing the drones you have in space blahblahblah I think everyone got that. It's still a little over the top to make all ships logistic drone carriers, or make current drone carriers have endless waves of drones. This is a matter of having your cake and eating it too.

Hell, you might as well just make drones indestructable, who's gonna shoot drones if they'll just pop out more?

If battleship pilots are having a problem keeping 5 drones in combat, then they need to downgrade and use mediums or even smalls to adapt. That's the whole reason Gallente battleships have bigger bays, it's a racial advantage to have better bays to play around with. Perhaps that racial advantage is a little overpowered, maybe even drones as they are. I couldn't say yay or nay to either.

Just a little off topic about drone carriers, just because their drones hurt more doesn't mean they were designed to not carry any guns in favor of nos and ecm. Hell even non-drone carriers seem to forsake quite a few of their slots to fit just these modules. Doesn't it say something to everyone when something becomes SO standard? It screams "overpowered!" at me.

xenorx
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:19:00 - [101]
 

Totally brilliant and well presented idea. Follows a very tried and true method of problem solving known as K.I.S.S. Which means "keep it simple stupid."

I whole heartedly endorse this idea. Come on CCP give this guy a cookie.

Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:16:00 - [102]
 

totally /signed

Tao Rhekdai
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
Posted - 2006.11.17 04:33:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Agun
I think this is a terrible idea. The whole point of this is for backup drones and versatility, yes? Why should all ships get such a thing?

Originally by: Agun
It's still a little over the top to make all ships logistic drone carriers, or make current drone carriers have endless waves of drones. This is a matter of having your cake and eating it too.


You are making an assumption that all ships would be given a increased dronebay. The idea the OP gave just allows for increased dronebays on certain ships, but in no way does it require that all ships receive it. The system is attractive because it lends a new tool that allows the devs to balance different ships, but it does not in any way dictate how they should do it. You are painting the idea into black and white, they either give a huge dronebay to all the ships, or they dont. That is not the case, and it is a poor arguement.

Ammarianna
Posted - 2006.11.17 05:14:00 - [104]
 

Well the OP suggested tripling or quadrupling every ship's drone bay...

He makes a concession at the end about doing it to only certain ships even though I'm fairly sure everyone is thinking along the lines of all ships, but I still think that would be wrong. It's like saying "gimme more powergrid/cpu/midslots/etc".

Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
Angel Deep Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.17 05:43:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: twit brent

I dont know if it has been fixed yet but ishtars do less damage than a dominix. Its bonus is 5% per lvl instead of the 10% in the description. Not sure if this is still in effect or if CCP have fixed this recently

Give me proof of that. Thanks. Any Dev post, Current built database stats, etc.

Nir
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.17 15:40:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: Nir on 17/11/2006 15:46:26
This is not a good idea imho. While it doesn't directly increase Drone DPS, I think drones should stay expendable. By increasing the number of waves of drones a ship can field you're making them less expendable and turning them more into "free highslots" Confused

Originally by: Deadeye Dave
I agree to be honest earlier I was flying around in my Curse thinking it would be nice to get more spare drones without increasing DPS to overpower the ship.




Well guess what, by having more backups to field you have longer sustainable DPS. The whole point of drones and why they take zero MW/Tf/Cap to use is that at some stage, you run out of them. That is what dronebays are balanced around.

Really its like me asking for a fifth turret and a higher peak cap recharge on the Zealot, not gonna happen.. nor should it.

JP Moregain
Gallente
EVE Reserve Bank
Posted - 2006.11.17 17:48:00 - [107]
 

This makes sense in general AND makes sense in light of the ship hp boost that comes with Kali (=backhanded drone nerf...)

Regards,

JP

Nir
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.17 18:35:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: JP Moregain
This makes sense in general AND makes sense in light of the ship hp boost that comes with Kali (=backhanded drone nerf...)


Maybe drones needed a little nerfing? To me heavy drones with more HPs than most cruisers and the tracking to eat cruisers and webbed frigs in seconds just didn't sit right. Now at least smaller ships will have a chance to get out.

Be glad that droneships get universal bonuses (i.e. no Heavy Drone-only bonus on the Dominix) or a thermal damage bonus.

Elaron
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:00:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Andrea Jaruwalski
Originally by: twit brent

I dont know if it has been fixed yet but ishtars do less damage than a dominix. Its bonus is 5% per lvl instead of the 10% in the description. Not sure if this is still in effect or if CCP have fixed this recently

Give me proof of that. Thanks. Any Dev post, Current built database stats, etc.


There's a couple of places where it's been discussed. Here on the EVE-O forums and on Scrapheap Challenge.

Don't know if you'll find the demonstrations convincing, but those are the places it's been discussed.

Derran
Minmatar
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:02:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Nir
This is not a good idea imho. While it doesn't directly increase Drone DPS, I think drones should stay expendable. By increasing the number of waves of drones a ship can field you're making them less expendable and turning them more into "free highslots" Confused

Well guess what, by having more backups to field you have longer sustainable DPS. The whole point of drones and why they take zero MW/Tf/Cap to use is that at some stage, you run out of them. That is what dronebays are balanced around.

Really its like me asking for a fifth turret and a higher peak cap recharge on the Zealot, not gonna happen.. nor should it.



You are assuming of course all ships would get a drone bay increase. I think the idea benefits the drone ships more than the non-drone ships. For instance, the Vexor. And the system also may give more options to address the underused medium drone problem.


Originally by: Agun
I think this is a terrible idea. The whole point of this is for backup drones and versatility, yes? Why should all ships get such a thing? Sure would be nice to have implemented, but what one may like may not be best for game balance. Yes yes we all understand its not about increasing the drones you have in space blahblahblah I think everyone got that. It's still a little over the top to make all ships logistic drone carriers, or make current drone carriers have endless waves of drones. This is a matter of having your cake and eating it too.


You mean, people actually USE the utility drones in their drone ships? Wow. First time I have ever seen that and I have seen lots of kill mails.
Originally by: Agun

Hell, you might as well just make drones indestructable, who's gonna shoot drones if they'll just pop out more?


Isn't that part of the point of the idea? You can't exactly shoot off a missile launcher or a gun turret after all to decrease the primary DPS of a non-drone ship.
Originally by: Agun

If battleship pilots are having a problem keeping 5 drones in combat, then they need to downgrade and use mediums or even smalls to adapt. That's the whole reason Gallente battleships have bigger bays, it's a racial advantage to have better bays to play around with. Perhaps that racial advantage is a little overpowered, maybe even drones as they are. I couldn't say yay or nay to either.


Only the Gallente drone ships have it. Not the non-drone Gallente ships. Celestis for example doesn't. I think this kind of idea has alot of potential and solves the Myrmidon problem at the same time. Sure you can give it more drone bay but then it might be a bit too strong. What if the idea was implemented and drone bay size was only increased by maybe 25m3 on some of the drone ships and the non-drone ships remained the same? Would that change your opinion?
Originally by: Agun

Just a little off topic about drone carriers, just because their drones hurt more doesn't mean they were designed to not carry any guns in favor of nos and ecm. Hell even non-drone carriers seem to forsake quite a few of their slots to fit just these modules. Doesn't it say something to everyone when something becomes SO standard? It screams "overpowered!" at me.

It depends on how it would be implemented. Although I can't see myself giving up my primary DPS ability or tanking ability to fit a mod on a ship which doesn't have much drone bay.
Originally by: Miklas Laces

Drone-ships have enough room for spares, other ships don't and I think that's fine.

Like a Vexor? It is a drone ship with 75m3 drone bay. No sense in dropping in 5 mediums because they will never do the damage of 5 heavy. 75m3 doesn't really give alot of room when you the current system encourages the use of 3 heavies on it.

Derran
Minmatar
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:04:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: "Ergo Morte"

How exactly is losing an advantage not a nerf? and its 6 Gallente ships, you forgot the Vexor, Ishkur and the upcoming Myrmidon. Further, since there are ECM rigs the NosEcmDomi is still going to be putting foot to rear with a few tweaks in any event. The Domi is not, nor should it be an I-win button and more spares will give even less reason to not mount nos and neuts ( think about that for a moment ).


Losing what advantage? Maybe drone bay wouldn't necessarily get changed at all. The system does at least give another method of control so not everyone and his dog just loads up on heavies all the time. And don't forget about the potential nos nerf.
Originally by: "Ergo Morte"

Is it really that hard to understand that replacement drones do increase damage over time. I spell that out to make it simpler to see the flaw in your logic, however I'll also explain. Without replacement drones damage from drones is reducable. I destroy one of your drones your DPS is lowered, permanently. So, over time, replacement drones do add damage.


What about the bit of travel time they have to do? Was that factored in? Destroying the drone would cause a DPS change for the drone pilot that has drones as a primary weapon whereas a gunship doesn't have that problem. Another good way to combat a domi is to damage its drones into structure so they stop obeying commands. I forget if they stop moving or shooting once they are far enough into structure.
Originally by: "Ergo Morte"

Once the mechanic exists I see a thousand whine threads to stop the Ishtar, ishkur, Eos, vexor and Myrmidon from using "battleship" ( or in the case of the ishkur " cruiser " ) weapons.

So here's what you idea actually does is make a halfarse fix for the Myr, hand out more dps to everyone and make the Domi an even more ungodly Ewar beast.


And your fix for the myridon is what? Please don't say more drone bay. That too is a halfarse fix. You just encourage people to fit the biggest, most damaging drones they can into the ship.


While I can understand some of the downsides mentioned (sortof anyway), the idea definitely has alot of potential and gives another system for drone control for all ships. The function of drone ships is to use drones as their primary weapon. Back when drone bay size wasn't halved, there was nothing at all special about drone ships because everyone could control the same amount. Halving drone bay was okay but incredibly effective. This idea has more potential and can give more balanced control besides trying to mess with drone bay size (hence the problem with the Myrmidon).

Anti Protagonist
Hiro Trade and Logistics
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:21:00 - [112]
 

I love my drones, and I love this idea....

xenodia
Gallente
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
Posted - 2006.11.22 00:53:00 - [113]
 



um... wouldnt it be easier to just restrict the sizes of drones that could be fitted ? Like frigates, regardless of drone bay size, can only use light drones, cruisers (with possible exception of vexor/ishtar) can only use light/mediums, etc ?

That way the only ships that could field heavies would be the bigger ships or ships designed specifically for the purpose (which would have a role bonus that negated the "can only fit x size" limit). And on large ships this isnt an issue anyway.

I know this is really intended to be a "why the myrmidon will suck" discussion, and I agree, with it relying on its drones for damage, it needs the ability to carry spares. I just dont think completely redesigning the drone system game wide (again) is the way to accomplish that.


Clansworth
Good Rock Materials
Posted - 2006.11.22 05:03:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: xenodia

I know this is really intended to be a "why the myrmidon will suck" discussion, and I agree, with it relying on its drones for damage, it needs the ability to carry spares. I just dont think completely redesigning the drone system game wide (again) is the way to accomplish that.



I think this was orinally to discuss a change in the way drones are handled in game. It seems that the current system of limiting the type of drones a ship can carry by limiting the size of drone bay is just not quite adequate. Simply limiting the drones by bay size and number that can be launched (which is not ship dependant) is inadequate. If by changing the mechanics of the game, you can limit a ships fieldable drones by the overall power of the drones, it would allow more tuning. It would allow gellente ships to have those big drone bays, and it would follow that a gallente drone frigate would have more drone control points than a caldari frigate.

Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2006.11.22 05:12:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Tsar Maul
Originally by: XGS Crimson
i dont really understand but /signed


It lets you carry around spare drones by giving all ships much bigger drone bays, but prevents them from getting more DPS from drones than they do now.

It also prevents ships from launching more drones than their dronebay allows by scooping and relaunching. It's technically what is called an exploit, however GMs decided a long time ago that they couldn't do anything about it and it is not classified as an exploit. It has limited uses, it's basically only good for camping somewhere. But it's not intended and it needs fixed. Your solution to one problem actually solves this other problem too.

Risopan
Amarr
Validum
Posted - 2006.11.22 13:25:00 - [116]
 

cool idea /signed!

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.12.05 05:39:00 - [117]
 

Tux? You forgot to put "/signed" in this thread. That tells us that you at least like the idea/concept without obligating that it's coming. It's ok to do that.

We know you meant to put "/signed" in the Khanid thread too and forgot, but we know you have been reeeaally busy (drinking) and forgive you for it. Laughing

This idea only makes sense. It helps gameplay without changing balance. It's a dev I-Win button.

Nyxus

Xori Ruscuv
Multiversal Enterprise Inc.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.12.05 05:54:00 - [118]
 

Yup, /signed.
This is a real no-brainer. Implementation shall follow, forthwith!

Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.12.05 06:09:00 - [119]
 

Drone ships get spares, regular ships dont. That's why most ships dont get to have large drone bays beyond 125m3.

Hell, part of hte balancing is that a Domi or Ishtar can not only have 5 heavies, but also 5 mediums and 5 lights for every possible occasion.

Allowing 'spares' allows alot of ships to have all sizes of drones, ****ing up balance and allowing BS's to have their cake (heavy drones) and eat it too (light drones for inties)

Aterna
Minmatar
Talon's Grasp
Posted - 2006.12.05 07:01:00 - [120]
 

I don't think this idea would work out very well. It sounds good in theory, but you can bet people will carry ewar drones, repair drones, lights, mediums in addition to heavies on BS, making a ship like the megathron far too powerful in relation to a drone boat like the Domi. In fact it would make many battleship sized ships too powerful in relation to a more dedicated drone ship. It would give BS's that can deploy 5x heavies now, too much versatility. picking the drones you want when you leave station is an important choice, much like picking your setup before you go. Allowing people to dump a huge assortment of drones would overpower these ships.

I would rather see a ship have the ability to reload the drone bay from the cargohold. have it take a few minutes. And if possible, to prevent exploits like a frig deploying a sentry, then putting a new sentry in the drone bay and deploying it, to get 5x heavy or 5x sentries, make it so that drones cannot be added to the bay as long as drones are deployed.


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