| Author |
Topic |
Dalaq
Minmatar
Kurai-Komichi
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate |
Posted - 2006.11.12 19:07:00 - [ 61]
Signed! |
Ergo Morte
Gallente |
Posted - 2006.11.12 20:33:00 - [ 62]
 Originally by: Tsar Maul
Now to address some issues arised in this thread.
Originally by: Ergo Morte
Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.
The only "nerf" is that 3 gallente ships lose their "backup drones" advantage. Those 3 ships are the Dominix, Ishtar and Eos. What those ships would gain is the ability to carry more drones than they knew what do do with. Drones for all occasions. 9 waves of heavies, or 6 waves and 3 waves of ECM. With all the crying that the ECM nerf is going to render the Dominix obsolete, this change would allow it to gain far more verstatility (spamming ECM isn't versatility, it's a one-trick pony that happened to be very overpowered) by allowing it to pack drones for every situation it comes across. Heavies, logistics, lights, ECM, nos, painters, you name it, it can carry them. How many Dominix pilots have moaned "if you lose your drones 3 times you've lost all DPS". That would be fixed with this, as only truely idiotic Dominix pilots could lose 9 waves of heavies.
Originally by: Ergo Morte
If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.
Did you actually read past "increase the drone bay on each ships"? Doesn't look like it to me. THE WHOLE IDEA OF DRONE CONTROL POINTS IS TO ALLOW SHIPS TO CARRY SPARE DRONES WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO FIELD MORE DRONES OR BIGGER DRONES THAN THEY CAN NOW. Keep reading that until it finally gets through to you. The Rupture will still only be able to launch 3 medium drones, but it has room to store more just in case it loses them. It won't, with a 90m3 drone bay, be allowed to launch 3 heavies and 2 mediums. Instead of drone bay size limited what can and can't be fielded, Drone Control Points will.
Is it really that hard to understand that no ship will get a DPS increase from this?
Quote:
Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.
You sir, have proved yourself to a clueless troll. "XXX isn't like YYY" is the final arguement people use when they can't think up any proper arguments. This won't change drones. It won't change damage, it will simply allow all ships to carry spares.
Got it?
How exactly is losing an advantage not a nerf? and its 6 Gallente ships, you forgot the Vexor, Ishkur and the upcoming Myrmidon. Further, since there are ECM rigs the NosEcmDomi is still going to be putting foot to rear with a few tweaks in any event. The Domi is not, nor should it be an I-win button and more spares will give even less reason to not mount nos and neuts ( think about that for a moment ). Is it really that hard to understand that replacement drones do increase damage over time. I spell that out to make it simpler to see the flaw in your logic, however I'll also explain. Without replacement drones damage from drones is reducable. I destroy one of your drones your DPS is lowered, permanently. So, over time, replacement drones do add damage. Once the mechanic exists I see a thousand whine threads to stop the Ishtar, ishkur, Eos, vexor and Myrmidon from using "battleship" ( or in the case of the ishkur " cruiser " ) weapons. So here's what you idea actually does is make a halfarse fix for the Myr, hand out more dps to everyone and make the Domi an even more ungodly Ewar beast. ( Hmmm, an even more ganktastic Domi ) You know what, I change my mind, your right. |
Tera Kubayashi |
Posted - 2006.11.12 21:49:00 - [ 63]
Signed indeed, the idea makes sense to me.
Not sure it will happen tho :/ |
Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance |
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:35:00 - [ 64]
Originally by: Ithildin
I like the following quote fetched from Civilization 4:
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
I think it applies. Every change and idea need to go through a grinding process, and be approved of by several people. Sometimes that means the ideas get daft at the end of the line, or doesn't make it at all.
It's a good point, I'd just expect that the greater number of people see it, the more likely one bright spark is going to spot the best solution. |
Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:38:00 - [ 65]
Ergo Morte, you really haven't understood the idea at all. Read everything again, after you've taken a step back and calmed down. You're all over the place, failing at every step.
The idea excel at one thing: addressing the issue with smaller drone ships unable to carry replacements.
The Ishkur, Vexor, Arbitrator, Imicus, etc are not meant to carry or use heavy drones, yet if they lose a single drone their damage is reduced until they find a station where they can refill. Not any station, the station must have a supply of drones as well.
The Dominix, already having more than two flights of drones, is not really affected by the change at all.
If you persist in your ignorant rambling, then justify why a pulse laser should not be lost if the Armageddon flee. Justify why the Siege Launcher should not be rendered inactive if a torpedo is shot down by a defender. This you need to do.
During a fight, you destroy drones. If the drone carrier has replacements in drone bay, the total damage will still be reduced for several vital seconds. Not only does the drone carrier need to launch and command the replacement drones, a procedure which takes time, it also needs to detect that the drones are lost.
Destroying drones is a tactical choice the other party need to make, it is not a question of the blind "kill the drone and he's a sitting duck".
In the end, the drone ship is only comparable and balanced with it's peers when all it's drones are intact and operational. |
Tasty Burger |
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:43:00 - [ 66]
Just thought of something.
This change would remove the only disadvantage of drones: them being killed. Currently they're already really hard to kill, especially with the instant shield recharge. |
Yamaeda
Amarr |
Posted - 2006.11.12 22:46:00 - [ 67]
Drone control points is an elegant solution, but why not simply allow for drone bay to "reload" by as an extra option in the r-click menu of the drone window. It would require no drones in local space and be a rather slow procedure as to not reload mid fight (say 1 minute). Thus you'd have most of the current mechanics and balances but with a reload possibility, like other ammo-limited weapons do (missiles, proj's, hybrids)
/Y |
Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless- |
Posted - 2006.11.12 23:12:00 - [ 68]
Honestly, this should have been done like a year ago.
Implement immediately. Or at least tell us that this will be coming Soon™.
This is much better than a seemless map tbh.
Nyxus
|
Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2006.11.12 23:25:00 - [ 69]
Originally by: Tasty Burger
Just thought of something.
This change would remove the only disadvantage of drones: them being killed. Currently they're already really hard to kill, especially with the instant shield recharge.
The instant shield recharge is only when engaging a drone carrier in really close combat. And you aren't shooting the drones for any other reason than to reduce the drone carrier's damage, so there is very little problem - for a while the drone will not do damage until it is replaced. BUT, remains is that the instant shield recharge need to be addressed and removed. So. How about increasing ammo size by 100 times? I'm sure the reason for ammo to be wasted is that the turrets and launchers would eventually run out of ammo and need station/carrier-based resupply. No? Am I completely disoriented? |
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 10:16:00 - [ 70]
No dev wub? |
Peter Stuyvesant
Amarr |
Posted - 2006.11.13 14:30:00 - [ 71]
Back to the top for a great idea. |
Naran Darkmood
Gallente
BlackSite Prophecy
101010 Alliance |
Posted - 2006.11.13 15:06:00 - [ 72]
/signed as well
With this, shield recharge when scooping & redeploying drones has to be fixed.
Maybe also give it a 5 sec deploy delay when launching drones for reasons like the Drone controll computer has to re-calibrate for the new drones.
Don't make it the 10 sec you need to change ammo, because this would be 5 sec lost at the beginning of a fight and you also have to count traveling time of the drones.
This delay would also get the tactical consideration into the game of sustaining dps with the same drones or loosing some dps to change to a more appropriate damage/Ewar type. |
Kolhell
Minmatar
The House Trelaine
|
Posted - 2006.11.13 21:01:00 - [ 73]
Edited by: Kolhell on 13/11/2006 21:04:41ergo - thank you for pointing out flaws in this idea. its better to work to fix something ahead of time rather than go "oops" after the fact like what seems to happen most often Originally by: Naran Darkmood
/signed as well
With this, shield recharge when scooping & redeploying drones has to be fixed.
Maybe also give it a 5 sec deploy delay when launching drones for reasons like the Drone controll computer has to re-calibrate for the new drones.
Don't make it the 10 sec you need to change ammo, because this would be 5 sec lost at the beginning of a fight and you also have to count traveling time of the drones.
This delay would also get the tactical consideration into the game of sustaining dps with the same drones or loosing some dps to change to a more appropriate damage/Ewar type.
i think that a redeploy timer would go a long ways to keep shooting drones a viable tactic, and it does make sense as all other weapons (whos different ammo actually DOES something different /cough amarr) have a reload time on them as well. this would also fix the problem with the shields recharging to full, as it would take time for those drones to get recharged. the other option suggested was to force a ship to somehow "repair" drone control points after drones get shot down. i can see this being significantly more cumbersome to implement than the redeploy timer, however, and the question will arise "where can we regain lost drone control points?" i dont think it would be fair to force a ship to dock, as in 0.0 that is not always an option (if it was we could just dock and move drones from cargo to bay, not taking cargo space into account anyways) i really like narans idea. perhaps it could be implemented as an X lag time after hitting launch from when the drones actually exit your ship? that would hardly take any work i think. any glaring flaws? it wouldnt reduce initial dps because you could begin launching your drones while you target. 5s might be a little harsh since this will adversely affect ships that rely on redeploying drones quickly (domi etc) but 3s would probably be just about right and would be balanced out by the ability to carry every drone you could ever want i think. |
General Xerxes
GREY COUNCIL
Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2006.11.14 19:44:00 - [ 74]
I think this is a great idea! It might help unnerf drones a bit in terms of Kali, cos it would allow more spares which counters the shooting down drones strategy, and it might cause people like me who use drones as their main, and sometimes only, weapon to use more logitics and ewar drones cos we can fit them without nerfing our DPS. What about Fighters, though? You can't make them cost 1000 points or carriers will be launching 15000 light drones to swarm targets.  I guess making them 5 points would probably work CCP, you really should implement this idea! |
Jarmon Karlentis
Caldari
Setenta Corp
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 01:17:00 - [ 75]
OP makes sense to me. /signed. |
Bardi MecAuldnis
Amarr
Sp00t
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 05:05:00 - [ 76]
Beautiful idea.
Naran's timer also helps out.
/signed. |
Franny
Mentis Seorsum
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 06:02:00 - [ 77]
not signed, just because ccp would **** it up somehow
they would break in such a way that either all BS's but the domi(that already have max 5 hvys) couldn't have max 5 hvys, or they would break it so there is no more limit 5 in space, and picture a domi with 25 t2 lights chasing a ceptor
guarntee 500% that CCP would do it right and MAYBE |
FreeHansje2 |
Posted - 2006.11.15 07:51:00 - [ 78]
No, don't do this.
Basically what OP is proposing is a larger supply of drones in a combatsituation. I'll not repeat everything said on the subject, but take a step back.
First you should look at the drone aspect of the game and ask yourself: do we need to change that? My answer is: no, we don't need to. Some ships are designed towards drone-combat and have advantages using drones, some ships are geared towards missiles, have no dronebay to speak of.
Mind, I do not judge the solution given by OP, I deny the existence of a problem. |
Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari |
Posted - 2006.11.15 08:16:00 - [ 79]
Great idea, and also a great chance for a small nerf to the Domi (and it damn sure needs some nerfing), by not increasing its dronebay as much as that of other ships so it won't have a near endless supply of drones. |
Schlauke
Gallente
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi |
Posted - 2006.11.15 10:14:00 - [ 80]
Tsar Maul this is an excelent idea!
Greetings Schlauke |
Elvarien
Caldari
Nullefied
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 10:15:00 - [ 81]
this would **** the domi as has been stated before one of its main strengths is that it has drones in its bay for every encounter losing that advantage would gimp it against other boats. |
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A |
Posted - 2006.11.15 10:49:00 - [ 82]
Originally by: Tsar Maul
We can then triple or quadruple every ship's drone bay without increasing the DPS.
It may have been a great idea 1 year ago, now with the upcoming patch it's not. With the Hp boost fights last longer and it actually makes sense to shoot enemy's drones even on not-specialized ships. With kali, dronebay = DPS. Not signed |
Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 11:06:00 - [ 83]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
Originally by: Tsar Maul
We can then triple or quadruple every ship's drone bay without increasing the DPS.
It may have been a great idea 1 year ago, now with the upcoming patch it's not. With the Hp boost fights last longer and it actually makes sense to shoot enemy's drones even on not-specialized ships.
With kali, dronebay = DPS.
Not signed
And how does more hitpoints help when you warp out and have to leave your drones behind, leaving you with absolutely no way of being able to replenish them without finding both a station you can dock in and one that sells drones. Ships DPS are balanced around their guns, missiles and drones. Being able to lose a chunk of your DPS so easily isn't balanced and it isn't fair. Also, what makes you think drones won't recieve another hitpoint boost too? The HP boost is designed to keep everything the same, just longer. I would be very surprised if they allowed you to shoot down drones quicker. |
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A |
Posted - 2006.11.15 11:54:00 - [ 84]
Originally by: Old Geeza
And how does more hitpoints help when you warp out and have to leave your drones behind
Drone-ships have enough room for spares, other ships don't and I think that's fine. Originally by: Old Geeza
Also, what makes you think drones won't recieve another hitpoint boost too?
I can only speak about current stats, drones hp have not been boosted. |
Uggster
Caldari
FinFleet
KenZoku |
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:01:00 - [ 85]
Top Bannanna Splendid Idea Signed  |
twit brent
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:22:00 - [ 86]
|
Ysolde Xen
The Causality
Electus Matari |
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:23:00 - [ 87]
Me likey.
Especially with the refinements that have been proposed on top.
/signed
|
twit brent
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:35:00 - [ 88]
One of the few counters to some drone ships is to actually target the drones, you can not say you will give drone ships more replacement drones without it boosting the ship. It also gives drone ships much more flexibility. In a battle your loosing you can pull in your damage drones then release some EWAR hope for a jam then warp away.
So for anyone who says this doesnt boost the ships at all in pvp I say STFU and learn to think. |
Tsar Maul |
Posted - 2006.11.15 12:40:00 - [ 89]
Originally by: twit brent
One of the few counters to some drone ships is to actually target the drones, you can not say you will give drone ships more replacement drones without it boosting the ship. It also gives drone ships much more flexibility. In a battle your loosing you can pull in your damage drones then release some EWAR hope for a jam then warp away.
So for anyone who says this doesnt boost the ships at all in pvp I say STFU and learn to think.
Thank you |
General Xerxes
GREY COUNCIL
Cruel Intentions |
Posted - 2006.11.15 17:22:00 - [ 90]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
Originally by: Tsar Maul
We can then triple or quadruple every ship's drone bay without increasing the DPS.
It may have been a great idea 1 year ago, now with the upcoming patch it's not. With the Hp boost fights last longer and it actually makes sense to shoot enemy's drones even on not-specialized ships.
With kali, dronebay = DPS.
Not signed
Fights lasting longer means the shooting down a Drone pilots drones is now too powerfulI agree that knocking a bit of DPS off a non-drone by shooitng the drones is a good idea, but drone-ships rely on drones for DPS so shooting them down and having no spares means they lose their DPS and therefore the fight. It's not ballenced that you can knock a Drone pilot out of combat by shooting at the drones with crappy resists and very little HP. Drones aren't really powerful enough compared to to guns or missiles to warrant their destruction being so easy. |
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