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Ergo Morte
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.12 00:49:00 - [31]
 

Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.

Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills.Rolling Eyes If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.12 00:59:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 00:59:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte
Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.

Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills.Rolling Eyes If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.


Funny, I thought the entire point of drone ships was to dish out loads of consistant damage while freeing up their highs for nos and their mids for ewar, while also having their damage output unaffected by the likes of tracking disruptors, sensor damps and ECM applied tot he ship. The fact that you can carry 3 waves of heavy drones is an added bonus for when someone brings a blob along and you have to run away very quickly.

I ask you this. Would you rather have a Dominix with 15 heavies, or a Dominix with 45-60 heavies and/or assorted ECM, sentry, small, medium and light drones?

Exactly.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.12 00:59:00 - [33]
 

Perhaps you should amend that this gives the possibility of giving ships replacement drones without increasing their dps, but does not necessarily mean all ships will have replacements.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Anyway, once this is implemented, its easy enough to give the Ish/Myrm enough CP for 4 heavyes with a 300m3 drone bay, problem solved tbh.


For that specific ships ir would IMO be better just to limit them to 4 drones. There already exists an rare vexor faction model which has as bonus +1 drone per lvl (was made before the drone changes, now the only ship which can use more then 5 drones at the ame time; only 75m though and no 50% dps/hp boost).

Anyway, if it is possible to give ships +1 drone it should be no real problmes to give ships -1 drone.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:11:00 - [35]
 

That's daft, then it can only use 4 meds or 4 lights against smaller ships.

Guurzak
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:15:00 - [36]
 

Conveniently, this proposal would also address the "5-sentry Vexor" exploit of scooping and redeploying more drone volume than you can fit in your bay at once.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:23:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: keepiru
That's daft, then it can only use 4 meds or 4 lights against smaller ships.


Considering heavies hit cruisers just as well as meds there's usually not much of a reason to use anytzhing other than heavies vs them (excluding maybe specific setups like a nanocurse).
Only 4 lights vs frigs is another matter, but the advantage of having multiple flights of heavies (hell, being able to carry these 4 lights with you in the first place) IMO outweights this disadvantage.

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:24:00 - [38]
 

I've added a "But..." because I can't get to sleep. I don't like it, but some people do.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:26:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Tsar Maul
I can't get to sleep.


Et tu, Brutor?

Awox
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Posted - 2006.11.12 01:28:00 - [40]
 

/signed

Cool

Ergo Morte
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.12 02:50:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tsar Maul
Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 00:59:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte
Wow, just wow. What a startlingly poor grasp of why you have drone ships. The entire point of a drone ship is sustainable DPS with drones or a large degree of versatility with different drone types. You just want to hand out to everyone the unique trait of Gallente.

Why not just have open high slots and univeral damage bonuses so everyone can fit any weapon type they want and why are Mimater ships so much faster than everyone they should have speed points to let me have a Vaga without bothering to train any skills.Rolling Eyes If you want sustainable drone ships train Gallente just like if you want the options of any other race.


Funny, I thought the entire point of drone ships was to dish out loads of consistant damage while freeing up their highs for nos and their mids for ewar, while also having their damage output unaffected by the likes of tracking disruptors, sensor damps and ECM applied tot he ship. The fact that you can carry 3 waves of heavy drones is an added bonus for when someone brings a blob along and you have to run away very quickly.

I ask you this. Would you rather have a Dominix with 15 heavies, or a Dominix with 45-60 heavies and/or assorted ECM, sentry, small, medium and light drones?

Exactly.


Glad to help correct your misconceptions.Smile

In all seriousness though, the Nos ECM steup only works really well on the Domi and even then 2xNos, 1xneut and the rest as guns work better. Most droneship setups mount guns as well, drones are part of the formula not a panacea. Removing uniqueness is rarely a good thing.

Specifically addressing the Myrmidon it should have a bigger drone bay now that they took away a slot. Many Gallente have asked for a bigger drone bay and less turret hardpoints, for those that don't know that's actually asking for less DPS. Some have even advocated a ship with a huge drone bay but no turrets. As envisioned the Myr fails, its' tank is too weak and its' DPS with only 4 heavys is too low to break the uber tanks that can be mounted on some other BCs.

Weirda
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2006.11.12 03:28:00 - [42]
 

this is very good idea. obviously every ship wouldn't get their drone bay tripled (points to person above), if anything the 'drone boat' would get a lot more of a bay boost purely as it is their main (even only in some case) source of DPS. until we can shoot guns off ship it only make sense to have replacement drone.

Ergo Morte
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.12 04:33:00 - [43]
 

Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.

If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.

Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.

Bombasy
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.12 06:10:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Bombasy on 12/11/2006 06:12:54
Originally by: Ergo Morte
Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.

If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.

Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.


You're a disgrace to Gallente pilots. This will not be a nerf to gallente, just because they can give bigger drone bays to ships doesn't mean they will. But ships that could benefit from it will, yes, that includes the yarrbitrator and the curse/pilgrim in my book.

And if they give more drones to other people, think about it, you'll have a better assortment of drones to deal with their drones.

This idea is perfect for the Myrmidon, TsarMaul I salute you and welcome your idea.

Kolhell
Minmatar
The House Trelaine
Posted - 2006.11.12 08:40:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Kolhell on 12/11/2006 08:45:39
Edited by: Kolhell on 12/11/2006 08:42:53
great idea, but im not a fan of the "but" you added. i thought youd have gotten past the point where you cared what other people think about your opinions by now ^^

as far as ecm drones go maybe set some separate limitations on them? honestly i dont think being able to carry that many different drones will imbalance gameplay for more than a short while as people figure out how to adapt, and if anything it will add more of that precious "strategy" ccp keeps trying to add to pvp.

not to mention being able to swap out types of drones mid-combat like swapping ammo would be teh seks :D

omg... just thinking about it... youd actually have a skill that would shorten the "reload" time of the drones (that +velocity one) which would further help to balance out drone boats losing some of their edge since pilots of those ships tend to have drone skills maxed out.

and re: the loss of that edge... you do realize that while a normal boat would be able to fit (omg) 2-3 spare sets of drones, youd be able to fly with EVERY set you could ever want and even then have spares on most of your ships.

Mihae
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
Posted - 2006.11.12 09:18:00 - [46]
 

/Signed \o/

king jks
Xenobytes
Stain Empire
Posted - 2006.11.12 09:34:00 - [47]
 

Signed, for what its worth. I also fully and whole heartedly support rigs to give you +drone space, that would be a really good improvement, if not fix to this problem.

Takahashi Arran
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2006.11.12 09:50:00 - [48]
 

not signed. though the idea has potential - how do drone control points reset? at this time you seem to be removing the major intentional weakness of smaller drone ships which is that thier drones can be destroyed. If however you only get your drone control point back if the drone is returned to its bay or another event happens (possibly you "reload" your drone control points like you would guns (although this may need to take longer or take a large chunk of cap or something to increase its downsides),losing control of all in space but allowing you to refresh after a fight or switch tactics on the fly as was your original intention). If you implement these limits as well to ensure a ship can't keep launching drones once i shoot them down

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.12 10:54:00 - [49]
 

What would be the point of introducing this new limit and then turn around and reprieving the ships the fix is designed to help the ability to launch new drones?

It is very simple, really. Drone Control Points ('s not a new concept, mind you) aims to increase drone bays without increasing drone potential.
It would also give the devs a bit more control over distinguishing drone ships, for example: the Arbitrator and the Vexor are very similar, but the Arbitrator with it's EWar bonus is superior. By introducing drone points, both ships can be limited to 10 points (5 medium drones) while the Vexor can be allowed a larger drone bay for more replacements or more versatility than the Arbitrator (which has it's versatility from it's med slots, something the Vexor can not do.)

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.12 12:12:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Tsar Maul on 12/11/2006 13:56:19
ahem nm

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.12 14:16:00 - [51]
 

Now to address some issues arised in this thread.

Originally by: Ergo Morte
Don't believe the hype Weirda. this idea will warp into a Gallente stealth nerf assuming that's not its' original intent. You can already see the beginning of it in this thread.


The only "nerf" is that 3 gallente ships lose their "backup drones" advantage. Those 3 ships are the Dominix, Ishtar and Eos. What those ships would gain is the ability to carry more drones than they knew what do do with. Drones for all occasions. 9 waves of heavies, or 6 waves and 3 waves of ECM. With all the crying that the ECM nerf is going to render the Dominix obsolete, this change would allow it to gain far more verstatility (spamming ECM isn't versatility, it's a one-trick pony that happened to be very overpowered) by allowing it to pack drones for every situation it comes across. Heavies, logistics, lights, ECM, nos, painters, you name it, it can carry them. How many Dominix pilots have moaned "if you lose your drones 3 times you've lost all DPS". That would be fixed with this, as only truely idiotic Dominix pilots could lose 9 waves of heavies.

Originally by: Ergo Morte
If anything as silly as this idea gets implemented it won't be a day before there is a whine thread about how cruisers and BCs shouldn't be able to field battleship weapons. All because there is an overage of persons totally ignorant of the fact that drones are a single tier waepon system. Small, medium and heavy just like electron, ion and neutron blasters. The difference being that drone space controls what can be fitted as oppossed to PG/CPU.


Did you actually read past "increase the drone bay on each ships"? Doesn't look like it to me. THE WHOLE IDEA OF DRONE CONTROL POINTS IS TO ALLOW SHIPS TO CARRY SPARE DRONES WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO FIELD MORE DRONES OR BIGGER DRONES THAN THEY CAN NOW. Keep reading that until it finally gets through to you. The Rupture will still only be able to launch 3 medium drones, but it has room to store more just in case it loses them. It won't, with a 90m3 drone bay, be allowed to launch 3 heavies and 2 mediums. Instead of drone bay size limited what can and can't be fielded, Drone Control Points will.

Is it really that hard to understand that no ship will get a DPS increase from this?

Quote:
Drones are not turrets, they are not missiles and as such cannot be treated as either. There is no upside to this idea for Gallente ship users.


You sir, have proved yourself to a clueless troll. "XXX isn't like YYY" is the final arguement people use when they can't think up any proper arguments. This won't change drones. It won't change damage, it will simply allow all ships to carry spares.

Got it?

Originally by: Takahashi Arran
not signed. though the idea has potential - how do drone control points reset? at this time you seem to be removing the major intentional weakness of smaller drone ships which is that thier drones can be destroyed. If however you only get your drone control point back if the drone is returned to its bay or another event happens (possibly you "reload" your drone control points like you would guns (although this may need to take longer or take a large chunk of cap or something to increase its downsides),losing control of all in space but allowing you to refresh after a fight or switch tactics on the fly as was your original intention). If you implement these limits as well to ensure a ship can't keep launching drones once i shoot them down


I hadn't actually given this much thought, but you're right it is important. I'm not sure what the solution is for that, but the ideas you've come up with are similar to what I would have said (assuming it is identified as a key problem with relaunching drones).

Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.11.12 16:59:00 - [52]
 

Not sure if this has been brought up, but what about the ships with drone bays only slightly larger than 125m3? They were supposed to be given a bit of extra versatility with the drones they can carry without being overpowered.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:13:00 - [53]
 

You could also just give all ship a stat called: "max drones in space" working exactly like "max locked targets".

Simple to put in and ALMOST same result.

Or just limit drones to work with specific ships like ammo does (rockets only fit in rocket launchers) :

Heavy drone - works with battleship, dreadnought and carrier
Medium drone - works with cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships
Light Drones - works with frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers

Or something like that...

Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:18:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Pinky Denmark
You could also just give all ship a stat called: "max drones in space" working exactly like "max locked targets".


Erm... how would that help prevent cruisers launching 5 heavies if they are given a bigger drone bay?

As for limiting drones to certain ships - no no no no no no no.

Kolhell
Minmatar
The House Trelaine
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:27:00 - [55]
 

/cough max m3 of drones in space?

were just arguing semantics at this point. how ccp decides to implement this idea is completely up to them and what will minimize resource usage (honestly i think sarmauls idea would be a complete resource hog but it doesnt take a rocket scientist to streamline code).

we need to figure out how TO GET ccp to implement this idea, NOT how they should script it.

Tsar Maul
Posted - 2006.11.12 17:51:00 - [56]
 

Drone control points = max m3 in space, divided by 5. It's just a much easier way of remembering things (and smaller numbers = good for idiots).

Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:05:00 - [57]
 

Best idea I've seen since for a long time. Apart from everyone trying to point out that the current tier 3 BS lineup is daft... but thats damage limitation.

Why can't CCP sit down and actually give some decent thought to mechanics and come up with decent solutions like this?

Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Scorpanti Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:12:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 12/11/2006 18:13:00
Very good idea Very Happy .


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:34:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Parallax Error
Best idea I've seen since for a long time. Apart from everyone trying to point out that the current tier 3 BS lineup is daft... but thats damage limitation.

Why can't CCP sit down and actually give some decent thought to mechanics and come up with decent solutions like this?

I like the following quote fetched from Civilization 4:

The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.

I think it applies. Every change and idea need to go through a grinding process, and be approved of by several people. Sometimes that means the ideas get daft at the end of the line, or doesn't make it at all.

Frezik
Basically Outdated Stereo Equiptment
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:49:00 - [60]
 

/signed

This also brings in the possibility of introducing the drone bay size modules (which have been in the database for a long time but never released) and maybe rigs for doing the same, too. These modules would have made indys into 0.4 drone spamming grievers, but control points avoids that problem.

It also creates a mechanic for a drone-specific counter module that reduces the target's drone control points.


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