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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.13 21:16:00 - [31]
 

While I don't neccesarily aggree with your methods, I do aggree that POS warfare is a major step back for EVE.

POS warfare has caused the quality of fighting in wars to get tedious, simple and elitist (in that you can't fight anybody with starbases without *several* dreadnoughts + pilots). POS's are great, but the kind of warfare they've introduced just isn't progress for a game.

Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
The Firm.
Posted - 2006.11.14 01:27:00 - [32]
 

I agree with the OP, but for a reason not explicitly stated here.

Compare the funding required for a large POS deathstar, with the funding required for a fleet to kill one.

Now compare the player numbers required to manage each.

Now compare the skill requirements.

You can see where I am going with this. A year and a half ago, I quite happily managed 3 Large and 1 Small POS with three other people, using noob hauler alts with 100k SPs and some funding from mains. We made billions. What will it take me to kill one? Several months of training for dreads, and a blob doing my bidding? Having been on both sides of the shield bubble, I can happily admit to some doubts about balance.

Caya
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.20 10:24:00 - [33]
 

With all respect Ith, the sick is your opinion here. These are typical words of some1 who spends time in Eve looking for cheap prey in some kind of l337 ganking party. And since many of your 'victims' hide under POS shield, u come up with this conclusion.
But as was already mentioned here, not every1 can play 23/7, not every1 is so lucky and can play together with other pilots protecting each other, not every1 wants to fight in PvP.
If Eve was without this ugh platforms, these people would either not play it or find another way how to evade 'fights' (i rather say not get ganked). So instead of repressing those that play different from 'us', i prefer to respect their gamestyle and adapt to what CCP developed.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.20 12:17:00 - [34]
 

You don't "need" dreads to take down poses, even large ones.
I've been in a number of ops where poses are taken down with battleships. Sure, it take from 2 to 5 hours, but it ain't fast in any case. As long as you have enough ppl with you poses are quite ineffective with large guns due to them cycling from one target to others. Large batteries simply don't hit battleships moving at 100m/s. Mediums are a lot more deadly... While torps have a sic damage reduction at those speeds.
If someone could direct the fire to certain targets the poses would be deadly. Able to pick a part any ship with concentrating fire...

Anyways, the poses are getting a huge nerf when Kali comes. Yes the HP boost for the capitals. Even today, Gunstars have huge pains trying to scratch dread tanks, and once they get a huge boost to their HP buffer... Say bye bye to a lot of poses...

POSes enable one thing. Stability and a possibility to leave a lasting mark in the game. Without them, and the current sovereignity system, you'd have to guess who owns the station you store your stuff in before you log on. Since anyone and their cat can come and take the station right before or after DT or any time the current controller has fewer ppl on.
Remember station ping pong?

And why are the 0.0 systems safeish?
Because a lot of alliances run their space as national states. They create the order in their own sovereignity. It's not the poses that make them safe, it's their comerades in arms.
Besides, if you really want to cause economic damage. Just run around in their space, stop their mining ops, shoot cans. Lost income builds up to billions in just weeks. Guerilla tactics. Distrupting operations. Theres a lot more to fighting wars than just kill mails.

Laboratus
Gallente
Invicta.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2006.11.20 12:43:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Laboratus on 20/11/2006 12:44:04
Originally by: Ithildin

It took a person maybe a day setting it up. It takes about a day or two (depending on strontium) to take it down. That's not balance, that's equilibrium or mirrored times.

He shouldn't have a safe haven because he's still out there. THAT is the point.

At the same time, really, it is bad for the game. The game's combat pace is coming to a halt. There's an artificial boundary protecting the enemy, allowing him to wait until they have moved away or until the tables have turned. When the tables turn?


The stront systems works like it deas due to a simple reason.
Some ppl have a real life. Like work. A job. They can't hang around 24/7. This enables them playing without having to lose their job...
It's really one of the big problems of online rpgs. When you gotto go, you gotto go and there really is nothing to it. If you lose everything you've tried to accomplish in the game because of it. It's not a very good game, now is it?

But, really. A network of poses costs about the same to maintain as they bring in isk.
For example. A region with, say 4, 5 stations, and say 20 moons with good moon mins.
The good moons bring in about 1 Bill per month. However, if you want to keep the stations and the moons, you gotto put large poses on them. They cost isk... Let's count a bit with approximate numbers...
So a large death star pos (max damage etc) costs about a bill. To keep the moons, you need one per moon, 20B.
To keep the stations, you need about 5 to 10 poses per station. So, at max thats a flat 70Bill.
Now how much did the dread fleet cost and how can it take em down? Not to mention each pos eats 250M-300M in fuels per month.
And a freighter can carry fuel for about 5-10(cant remember exactly and don't have the pos sheet around at the moment?) poses per trip.
So you end up with a nice monthly cost of 17.5B per month. And 7-14 monthly freighteer runs for the fuel, if it can't be mined at the location. And those are some weak fortress systems. How many did the Big Blue keep? One pos at each moon? And still it was not enough. So to really keep your space you gonna have more poses then that.

Oh, How much does the dread fleet cost? 2-3B per dread? how many do you need to take down a large pos? Say 10 will do it convinsingly... Thats about 20-30B. Gee. About 2 months worth of fuel for the poses... Ain't that expensive...

Of course, you can do it cheaper. Pay someone else to blow up the poses. The only problem is, you still need to cough up the isk to buy your own poses to replace the ones you blew up. And you better bring more, then they brought, since obviously they weren't enough.
The truth is. Poses are a huge investment. And they are as combat platforms one shot wonders, if the enemy brings in the big guns.
Bob has brought down dozens of ascn poses in the last war down south and they haven't lost too many dreads doing so.
And the dreads are getting a boost soon.
The POSes don't need nerfin, just some attitude needs adjusting and some ignorance needs information to quell it.

Edit notes: Edited for readability and typos corrected

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2006.11.20 15:21:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
  • The most devastating batteries should require a pod-pilot's direct command, as if he was piloting it.



  • As it happens, a lot of POS owners have called for such a change; it would put a stop to the tactic of swarming batteries with fast t1 frigs to distract them from the dreadnoughts. It would become a good deal harder to take out a POS if all its guns could be made to fire on the same target at the same time, even if more players were needed.

    Nyxus
    Amarr
    Fat J
    -Mostly Harmless-
    Posted - 2006.11.20 18:48:00 - [37]
     

    Ithildin - Wow. Just wow. Great post.

    This is one of *THE* problems with Eve right now. You just don't have to defend unless your enemy brings a HUGE gang with Dreads. If you are in a POS you are 100% safe from everything other than 15 Dreads.

    You see, people are generally lazy. While I didn't like the old "station pong" it FORCED people to come out and defend. Or lose thier station, even to a relatively few determined attackers. They had to stop what they were doing and rally. This made for interesting fights, and ongoing battles that went on for weeks at a time.

    Now people just sit in a POS and go afk for food when hostiles show up. Thier is no impetus to fight because there is absolutely no danger from the hostiles. This leads to boredom and stagnation.

    100% for the suggested changes.

    Nyxus

    PS - Please change the graphics of POS just to be a big ring, or even a big box in space. All the crap left floating in space anchored or not is a REAL detriment to FPS and provides absolutely ZERO to gameplay while detracting substantially from game performance.

    Levin Cavil
    Applied Eugenics
    Posted - 2006.11.20 19:36:00 - [38]
     

    Edited by: Levin Cavil on 20/11/2006 19:45:17

    <3 <3 <3

    I agree 100% Only thing I can think to add is that soverignty is totally backwards and pos bonuses (fuel use, production time, etc.) should come from who controls the outpost in a system, not who mines the most ice. Bring back station pong TBH, it's about a million times better than pos warfare and the totally broken soverignty system. If you can't be online 23/7 and don't have enough friends to help protect your 0.0 installations when you are offline then go play a different game, checkers might be more to your liking.

    Vincent Almasy
    Gallente
    The Underground
    The ENTITY.
    Posted - 2006.11.20 21:29:00 - [39]
     

    if you want less shields on a POS then let a POS focus fire and instapop ships one by one, sound fair then? all fire focused onto a dread, the dead will pop befor the POS if fitted ok, a death star, well I wounder how many Dreads and BS will fall before the POS does.

    Celesta Croft
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    Posted - 2006.11.20 21:54:00 - [40]
     

    Originally by: Laboratus
    Distrupting operations. Theres a lot more to fighting wars than just kill mails.


    Of course there is but how else will the UT/Quake portion of the Eve community flex its proverbial e-phallic? Embarassed


    Dutarro
    Matari Munitions
    The Fendahlian Collective
    Posted - 2006.11.21 01:56:00 - [41]
     

    I tentatively agree with the OP that a POS should not render ships totally invulnerable, and I am one of those people most likely to warp to a POS when hostiles show up on local. Perhaps replace the shield bubble with some arrays that give friendly ships a boost in combat, so they have an advantage but can still be engaged.

    As for avoiding combat, IMO a major reason that people run rather than fight is that you cannot engage in money-making activities while flying a PvP-worthy ship (except piracy maybe). Mining and long-distance trade require that you hop out of your PvP ship and get into a defenseless mining barge or hauler. NPCing ships have a better chance but are still generally not well-suited for fighting other players.

    So to encourage more small-scale PvP I would say do the following:
    - Ships at a POS should not be invulnerable
    - Add POS arrays to give friendly ships in its grid some advantages
    - Replace piloted mining barges with drones or small, temporary structures
    - Replace piloted cargo ships with NPC haulers escorted by a player
    - Make NPCs more similar to player ships so that the same fittings work for PvE and PvP



    Kirex
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    Posted - 2006.11.21 05:33:00 - [42]
     

    /signed

    POSs turned pvp carbearish.

    Earthan
    Gallente
    GREY COUNCIL
    Nulli Secunda
    Posted - 2006.11.21 06:45:00 - [43]
     

    Edited by: Earthan on 21/11/2006 07:03:48
    Originally by: Ithildin
    EVE is sick. It's syndromes is safe 0.0 security space, untouchable players in what should be prime conflict space, and perfect fully automated fortifications.

    The disease is spreading and growing worse.

    What is the cause? Player owned Starbases - the reprieve for the weak, the sanctuary for the cowards.

    While Starbases cost quite a bit, they have several unwanted and negative effects on EVE, mainly in the enjoyment of the game. EVE started out as an industrial game with severe consequences for those who were willing to take risks and who subsequently failed.
    The consequences were the result of player actions against other players, and it created game immersion and excitement for both parties - it created wars. People used several different ship designs to punish each other for injustices, perceived slights, or just for enjoyment.
    With the introduction of Starbases, these wars have stagnated. Sovereignty ping-pong has become an accepted concept. However, what is most negative for combat and the development of EVE is that in order to fight you no longer have the option of having Dreadnoughts siege Starbases - Dreadnoughts have become a must in EVE and you can not do without a fleet of such.

    More and more this is becoming the rule: in order to harass the enemy's miners you must destroy the Starbases they are hiding inside, in order to exact financial destruction on the enemy you must take their Outposts which means you have to destroy several starbases, and in order to organise a defence of your own space you only need starbases with minimum manpower because it gives you as much as days to organise a defence.

    It is time for this to stop

    EVE combat needs to turn around. It needs to once more be about defending yourself, your ship, and not about waiting for Stronthium Clathrates to run dry.

    [list=]
  • Remove forcefields from starbases, make them fully navigational by anyone

  • Starbase provides invulnerability only for it's linked modules

  • Electronic countermeasures fully affect starbase modules and ships inside it's radius

  • Severely reduce starbase striking power against battlecruiser sized or smaller by reducing tracking of large batteries to sieged dreadnought grades or worse and by reducing damage of smaller batteries to one tenth of current

  • Introduce linked stargates

  • The most devastating batteries should require a pod-pilot's direct command, as if he was piloting it.
  • [/list=]

    In short, starbases should not be (a) safespots, (b) invincible against roaming fleets, (c) necessary for warfare. They should be primarily industrial installations that are defendable - it should be easy to come to it's rescue (hence the linked stargates) but they must, and I stress must, be severely reduced as military installations.

    You defend your starbase. You defend your outpost. They do not defend you

    If you wish to safely store your ships, do it in the corporate cargobays. If you want to mine safely in 0.0, it has always been doable with safespots and not to mention the newly fangled cloaking devices.



    I dont know mate i know pos wars mostly arent that fun but as you mention on end of post, it was same before, just eeveybody run to ss and logged.( me included dont get me wrong, normal thing if you are blobed mining). So we with your changes we will be back to ss-ing and logging, dont even dream that poeple will be at pos waiting for you to fight them.

    I think pos warfare should be made more interesting including dreads if posssibe, but pos as finally something that you must defend and dreads to fight them as must is a very good thing.

    I remmber wars from before poses and i t seemed tottaly void at some level , why fight if to much risk, we can just run and come back later, when chances are better.Anyway nothing is changing nothing to defend.( never run to hide unless for short tottaly outblobed moments, but thats how it felt)


    Earthan
    Gallente
    GREY COUNCIL
    Nulli Secunda
    Posted - 2006.11.21 06:47:00 - [44]
     

    Now the recent few wars with poses i have been in really had the feeling we are defending something, and can attack something.

    I remmber when we were defending poses killing capitals, and we were forced to move, nevermind the enemy fleet size.

    So imho: make pos warfare including dread more fun: yes.

    your changes: sorry no.

    Laboratus
    Gallente
    Invicta.
    Cry Havoc.
    Posted - 2006.11.21 11:25:00 - [45]
     

    It's nice to know you have something left of what you had when you logged off when you log on again.
    With the proposed changes a group of, say 20-30ppl roaming around could take down everything in a region/regions stations and safespotted eq included.

    So no. Just no.

    Ithildin
    Gallente
    The Corporation
    Cruel Intentions
    Posted - 2006.11.23 18:47:00 - [46]
     

    Originally by: Earthan
    I dont know mate i know pos wars mostly arent that fun but as you mention on end of post, it was same before, just eeveybody run to ss and logged.( me included dont get me wrong, normal thing if you are blobed mining). So we with your changes we will be back to ss-ing and logging, dont even dream that poeple will be at pos waiting for you to fight them.

    I think pos warfare should be made more interesting including dreads if posssibe, but pos as finally something that you must defend and dreads to fight them as must is a very good thing.

    I remmber wars from before poses and i t seemed tottaly void at some level , why fight if to much risk, we can just run and come back later, when chances are better.Anyway nothing is changing nothing to defend.( never run to hide unless for short tottaly outblobed moments, but thats how it felt)


    Now, the problem with Starbases (POS) as such is that it isn't a hot-spot that needs to be defended. It's something to delay the attackers most of the time.

    Why? The attackers know that placing dreadnoughts at the POS is placing them in a VERY vulnerable position. They are no match for a medium sized defence fleet, and if they bring in reinforcements, they will lose a lot of defenders.
    Instead the attacker locks the system down completely. Massive camps at gates, and 5 to 10 dreads (or even more) to knock down one POS at a time.

    There's no chance of defending them.

    While massive numbers of players can never truely be opposed as such (no change to Starbases will ever accomplish this), I feel that changing Starbases so that they are more vulnerable and susceptible to attacks will change the psychological aspect of Starbase warfare so that you will see more attacks on POS without locked down systems and dread gangs.

    At the moment, this is what's done:
    1. Attacker moves in, locks down system. Starts putting POS in reinforced.
    2. Attacker jots down when POS leave reinforced modes and plans next day's op.
    2b. Attaker may put up their own POS.
    3. Defender attempts to put up more POS.
    3b. Defender locks system down and puts attacker's POS in reinforced mode.
    4. Attacker begin the next OP and attempts to lock down system to destroy POS that come out of reinforced. 75% of the time they succeed, 20% of the time they reschedule and bring more people next time. 5% of the time there's an actual battle being fought.

    By making POS more vulnerable (although, should be said, not vulnerable as in susceptible to battleship gangs, but opening them up and making *certain* arrays vulnerable), POS warfare may become more intense and an actual defence in a combat situation of such may become more common.
    Right now, combat isn't common.

    A great part of the problem in EVE is that it is very difficult finding people, and at the same time a binary situation whether you can warp away, but steps can be taken so that tactical combat isn't a complete bore.

    Reatu Krentor
    Minmatar
    Void Spiders
    Fate Weavers
    Posted - 2006.11.23 20:34:00 - [47]
     

    I would say one problem in starbase sieges is that all the anchored/onlined structures don't help with the warp-in lag.
    I would suggest something different:
    - Make POS/starbases into what would essentially be a micro-station. The corp that anchored it, would be able to dock and have dependant on what modules(the former anchorables) were installed and brought online have access to different services from inside. Persons docked would not have a ships bay nor a personal hangar. Only a corp hangar would be available. I am not sure how it should handle alliance members/people not of the corp however.
    - Pos defenses are automated and installed in the same manner as the other services. However there is a new option for people with the right skills and roles, they can dock with the POS and have access to the Control Center of a POS(essentially they would "pilot" the pos). The interface is the standard pod pilot interface, which means the weapons/ew are limited to 23(23 interface slots +1 special, see further). The pilot can fight just as he would in a normal ship. Now the special module I was talking about, reinforced mode. Essentially the same as a dread's siege mode, it drastically increases the shield recharge of the pos as well as boost the damage output considerably at a small cost to effectiveness versus smaller targets. It starts consuming strontium clathrates at approx. the same rate as a POS does now in reinforced and any non-combat related pos modules go inactive.
    - There would be no forcefield as there is no more need for it. Imo people shouldn't be safe near a pos under siege.
    - There are a couple starbase modules that could be excepted from the rule of being inside the starbase, things like the planned linked stargates. They would of course be invulnerable as long as the pos remains online.

    Earthan
    Gallente
    GREY COUNCIL
    Nulli Secunda
    Posted - 2006.11.24 10:17:00 - [48]
     

    Originally by: Ithildin
    Originally by: Earthan
    I dont know mate i know pos wars mostly arent that fun but as you mention on end of post, it was same before, just eeveybody run to ss and logged.( me included dont get me wrong, normal thing if you are blobed mining). So we with your changes we will be back to ss-ing and logging, dont even dream that poeple will be at pos waiting for you to fight them.

    I think pos warfare should be made more interesting including dreads if posssibe, but pos as finally something that you must defend and dreads to fight them as must is a very good thing.

    I remmber wars from before poses and i t seemed tottaly void at some level , why fight if to much risk, we can just run and come back later, when chances are better.Anyway nothing is changing nothing to defend.( never run to hide unless for short tottaly outblobed moments, but thats how it felt)


    Now, the problem with Starbases (POS) as such is that it isn't a hot-spot that needs to be defended. It's something to delay the attackers most of the time.

    Why? The attackers know that placing dreadnoughts at the POS is placing them in a VERY vulnerable position. They are no match for a medium sized defence fleet, and if they bring in reinforcements, they will lose a lot of defenders.
    Instead the attacker locks the system down completely. Massive camps at gates, and 5 to 10 dreads (or even more) to knock down one POS at a time.

    There's no chance of defending them.

    While massive numbers of players can never truely be opposed as such (no change to Starbases will ever accomplish this), I feel that changing Starbases so that they are more vulnerable and susceptible to attacks will change the psychological aspect of Starbase warfare so that you will see more attacks on POS without locked down systems and dread gangs.

    At the moment, this is what's done:
    1. Attacker moves in, locks down system. Starts putting POS in reinforced.
    2. Attacker jots down when POS leave reinforced modes and plans next day's op.
    2b. Attaker may put up their own POS.
    3. Defender attempts to put up more POS.
    3b. Defender locks system down and puts attacker's POS in reinforced mode.
    4. Attacker begin the next OP and attempts to lock down system to destroy POS that come out of reinforced. 75% of the time they succeed, 20% of the time they reschedule and bring more people next time. 5% of the time there's an actual battle being fought.

    By making POS more vulnerable (although, should be said, not vulnerable as in susceptible to battleship gangs, but opening them up and making *certain* arrays vulnerable), POS warfare may become more intense and an actual defence in a combat situation of such may become more common.
    Right now, combat isn't common.

    A great part of the problem in EVE is that it is very difficult finding people, and at the same time a binary situation whether you can warp away, but steps can be taken so that tactical combat isn't a complete bore.


    Agreed that the biggest shame is not often a battle for pos really happens.

    But i personallly have been in a few on both sides( attacking pos when enemy choose to defend, and defending one) and it was really one of greatest fun in Eve.capitals attacking, bs fleet nearby twarping in to defend enemy pos firing, lookout for enemy reinforcement... really cool stuff.

    Now i know and i ahve exp it 90 % of pos wars is just shoot, shield boost etc. no real battles.

    But i say thats the real problem and imho your idea doesnt help it, doesnt help even for the sammlll fights you wanted to have as imho for 100% poeple will just log.

    Maybe the problem is as somebody pointed, that a dread outfitted costs 2-3 bikions and a large pos 0,5 bilion?Maybe if the cost of large pos was more inline with 4-5 dreads we would rush more to defend it....On other hand it would make them reeally scarce..

    No idea how to solve it but ideal imho would be to force poeple defend/attack poses even with enemy...

    Rhamnousia
    Caldari
    Fairlight Corp
    Rooks and Kings
    Posted - 2006.11.24 12:53:00 - [49]
     

    i cant really say i completely disagree with the OP, but here's a few pointer i would like to give to the OP.

    EVE is a closed PvP game, in which everything the players do will eventually end up in the PvP system. And from PvP, most ppl think of shooting another player(s) in actual combat between gangs.

    But, i would like to redefine the PvP the devs meant when they say "PvP" in EVE.

    Player versus Player (PvP) is usually understood as PvP combat, whereas player(s) fight each other in actual combat, by whichever mean the game allow, gang warfare, solo PvP, battle groups, scheduled battles, ect. But most people missing the part of everyone else in the game contribute to PvP combat, such as those do not participate in PvP combat but concenstrate their play time on cherishing PvP combat by other means. Especially in EVE, there're are several ways one can constribute to PvP combat. Taken from game mechanism and terms:

    - Miners, they are great PvPers. In a sense of supplying the Industrialists with minerals to manufacturing goods used in PvP combat.

    Miner -> minerals -> Industrialists -> goods (mods, ships, ammo, ect.) -> PvP combat

    - Mission Runners. Great force of PvPers who prefer combat with NPC forces as a way to constributing to PvP combat.

    Mission Runner -> goods (mods, ships, ammo, ect.) -> PvP combat.

    These are only a few example of what a non-PvP-Combatant can do to take part in PvP combat.

    With all that said, POS warfare isn't PvP Combat nor PvP in general.

    the principle of POS is an isk-sink, to eat up all the isk come from insurance and NPC rats. as more and more isk being generate outta no where, the isk value reduced considerably. the isk-sink is introduce as an attempt to fix the system, by take back the isk generated outta thin air from insurances, and rats' bounty back to NPC's hands, thus reduce the amount of isk floating around, and increase its value.

    At the same time, POS also important in sov warfare which crucial for controlling stations. and eliminate the station ping pong problm we had in the past. so this is hitting 2 birds with 1 stone.

    as of the current game mechanism goes, PvP combat only occur in "very" few places. belts (ganking NPCers), deadspace complexes (if lucky to catch a gang in the 1st pocket), station (camp/blob), gate (camp/blob). these options leave roaming gangs (those who wish not to participate in gate/station camp/blob or tired of ganking NPCers in belts) no other choice than whine/complain/cry/flame/blame/whatever.

    to close up this long winded post. POS isn't PvP nor meant for PvP combat. thus no need to change them or whatever. avoiding PvP combat is also a form of PvP, by preserving the resources. one wish to PvP to earn isk/mod/whatever wouldn't be on the winning side if they didn't get any of the above now, would they?

    Christopher Multsanti
    Euphoria Released
    HYDRA RELOADED
    Posted - 2006.11.29 15:52:00 - [50]
     

    100% agree with the OP!!!!

    insidion
    Caldari
    Octavian Vanguard
    RAZOR Alliance
    Posted - 2006.12.17 12:39:00 - [51]
     

    Edited by: insidion on 17/12/2006 12:44:44
    I definitely agree that there are issues raised in the OP, but I can't say that I see any appealing solutions here. Frankly, war is hell. It should be ugly, it should be expensive, and the larger the goal, the longer it should take to get there. Sounds like as usual, the hunters are whining that they aren't unstoppable, and the hunted are complaining that they are vulnerable.

    Frankly I'd rather see the elimination of lag and bugs in the system before anything else. I'm all for new stuff in EVE, it needs it for sure, but stabilize things before further expansion please. =P

    Ithildin
    Gallente
    The Corporation
    Cruel Intentions
    Posted - 2006.12.17 12:45:00 - [52]
     

    Originally by: insidion
    I definitely agree that there are issues raised in the OP, but I can't say that I see any appealing solutions here. Frankly, war is hell. It should be ugly, it should be expensive, and the larger the goal, the longer it should take to get there. Sounds like as usual, the hunters are whining that they aren't unstoppable, and the hunted are complaining that they are vulnerable.

    My original post is not about making it easier to overcome the greater goals, it is to make combat in starbase-riddled regions more dangerous.

    The great goals are to destroy costly, valuable, installations such as outposts and starbases. The lesser goals is to make life difficult and dangerous for the inhabitants of the region, and currently starbases prevent that with near perfect efficiency.

    Granted that you can never be a complete menace, but as long as starbases are there you will have a perfectly safe resupply base with no effort what so ever to stay safe and prepare for counter attacks. THIS is what needs to change.

    Destroying starbases taking a long time like it does now, I have no problem with. It is the stuff that cowardly hides inside the starbases that needs to be addressed, as it is slowly degrading and destroying EVE PvP.

    It really was better in the old days, before starbases and after probes. Nowhere was safe as long as you stayed online.

    Reggie Stoneloader
    Poofdinkles
    Posted - 2006.12.17 20:09:00 - [53]
     

    Revelations is the age of capital ships. Get dreadnaughts and battleships and carriers and get to work. Dreads kill POSes, battleships kill dreads, Carriers kill battleships and hide in POSes. Everything else should have either a warp disruptor or a cyno generator on it.

    HankMurphy
    Minmatar
    Pelennor Swarm
    Posted - 2006.12.17 21:58:00 - [54]
     

    agree w/ OP

    i just think the POS thing was implemented poorly from the get go. In fact, poorly isn't even the word for it.... SNAFU i think is the word for it. But its stable and doesn't cause your client to crash when you warp to it, so dont expect it to get any attention in the next couple years. That said i think many (except cowards) would agree.....

    -POS wars are boring

    -Tower spamming is pretty stupid. The simplicity of throwing up a tower compared to what it takes to bring one down is out of whack too

    -You need to be ready to take a beating when you head to a hostile POS. I dont see why ships should be able to 'hide' behind the pos shield. I cant orbit a dreadnought at 50m and be safe behind his shield. POS shield is for POS, not for fleet. You should be able to fire on any piloted ship at a POS. A small gang should be able to pursue that target to his POS and kill him as long as they do it b4 the POS guns kill them.

    yeah.... OP, you said it best, but forums is only way of getting my eve fix while on vacation Very Happy


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