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Draaken
Caldari
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.09 11:12:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Horza Kendrick
This was inevitable from the moment the aid convoy was proposed.

And that's where you're wrong. I welcome the notion that the Federation would like to support the State, I really do, and I'm quite sure so do many other citizens of the State.
What fails my comprehension entirely is why the Federation would attempt to ignore a clear refusal of their offered help and proceed to violate sovereign State space by entering it with a Federation Navy vessel, one that holds a contingent of marines easily perceived as a threat to the civilian population at that.
Simple rules of de-escalation dictate retreat into neutral or Federation space if intentions truly are peaceful, yet the Navy commander in charge apparently refused to just that and wait for his clearance. That is what signed the death warrant of all involved Federation personell onboard the supposed "relief convoy". It is entirely the fault of the commander in charge, or his superiors if they ordered him to stay; ultimately, it is President Foiritain's fault, for not accepting State sovereignty.

On another note, I still fail to see how you immediately draw a picture in which VETO was somehow hired by State citizens.
Personally, the swift response by the Federation along with the swift destruction of the convoy by hired VETO forces stink of double-bluff, even more so considering the Federation's past ... 'problems' ... with solving their own crisis. The response times to what happened on Reschard come to mind...

Horza Kendrick
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.09 11:51:00 - [32]
 

You think the Navy commander on the ground acted on his own initiative and sat there waiting for death? He had more than enough time to refer to his superiors even if his orders lacked any clarity on the situation he faced.

I didn't imediatly anything. I (and it seems many others Gallente and Caldari alike) fully expected the convoy to be attacked, it was of only passing interest who would fire the weapons and loot the cans. I doubt Foiritan or what ever civil servant you propose pulled the double bluff would be stupid enough to use a Gallente headed corp to do the dirty but I could be wrong. The situation could as easily have been defused by the Caldari involved proposing a suitable way to accept the aid.

I know we could all sit here and armchair command what we would have done given the situation but what I am saying is the situation was never real. The Gallente Navy must have known the convoy would be stopped by force. The Chief Executive Panel must have known they would come anyway. The outcome was inevitable, the reason was to increase the tension between our respective races, the instigators are almost irrelevant. I have no desire to see a bloody war between the Gallente and the Caldari. I have the sickening feeling it's unavoidable.

Asmodeos
Gallente
United Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.09 12:37:00 - [33]
 

Quote:
Move in a small way that you opponent can not help but block so as to unbalance his efforts elsewhere.

Scenario 1
Start a uprising
Send in a “peacekeeping” force
Contract with a company known for its diligence in secrecy
Have said company kill your own peace keeping force
Paint your enemy with the brush of aggressive barbarism
Gain popular support for future actions

Scenario 2
Notice an uprising
Send a peacekeeping force
Someone who stands to profit from war contracts a company known for its diligence in secrecy
Watch as war ensues and profit

Scenario 3
An uprising happens
A “peacekeeping” force is sent in by your (once?) enemy into your sovereignty
Overreact to “aggression” you see in your sovereign space
Deal with the consequences of war.



First: hearing this from someone without an objective view and whom is named Ugly Brute is laughable at best.

Second: For all Caldari, It could well be that kaalakiota themselves payed Veto to do their dirty work and instructed their own police forces not to act. But its all just still speculation, and what we should ask ourselves do we really want a new war because if these aggressions continue, one side or the other will eventually have enough.
And in a war it wont just be a question of millions of casualties then, but billions on both sides and many other attrocities might occur as well. In my opinion it would be best for now that some diplomatic envoys from both sides would start talking so that future problems might not occur or be handled more efficiently.

Third: Both sides have to take blame in this happening, gallente for just tresspassing without proper clearance even though their goal was noble.
And Kaalakiota for just standing by and letting this happen because it was a well intentioned shipment for one of their stations that was in severe disarray. And when your population is suffering why reject medical shipments it even doesnt have anything to do with solving problems on your own, you can still do that even tho you accepted some relieve for your populace.

Greetings Asmodeos.

Nikla Uthaan
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.09 13:47:00 - [34]
 

I bear a message from one who holds large concern for these events, who at present wishes to remain anonymous.

Whilst the sides 'officially' involved in this may pander to politicking their way about a 'peaceful' resolution, the people of the Caldari State will see this for what it is. 500 Federation Navy soldiers entering Caldari Space under the neutral banner of an 'Aid Mission' is an act of espionage and a direct act of aggression against the Caldari State.

While the powers that be may be loathe to act for fear of reprisal, the Gallente Federation should consider itself under threat from those who see this situation for what it is.

(NOTE: Link contains out-of-character content, located out of Intergalactic Summit)

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:15:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Jack Quadros
I hope your corporation's prepared to deal with any retaliatory act that the Federation Navy may choose to commit. Granted, the Gallente may be seen in the eyes of the Caldari Navy as a potentially dangerous threat to the State, but unwarranted acts of aggression and destruction against non-combatant convoys - even if they do carry Marines as a means of protecting the cargo while in-station - are not seen as justifiable in the least.

Be more careful in the future, for if you keep going with this, you'll end up with far too many unwanted enemies.


I would hardly call two FULLY ARMED Federation Navy Issue Megathron classes, with support and a Freighter carrying troops "non-combatant".

Regardless, we were paid to do a job Mr Quadros and we completed it sucessfully.


Lord Dae
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:42:00 - [36]
 

i am 1 to think that a Caldari 'faction' hired Veto, so they could get heir current government involved deeper in a war way . Money will be made during that war .. and maybe a change of Caldari power ... who knows ..

Roy Gordon
Caldari
Caldari Advanced Response Division
Power Of 3
Posted - 2006.11.09 15:58:00 - [37]
 

I roundly applaud VETO’s actions because, if viewed in a different light, they probably prevented an even greater tragedy from occuring.
Let us think upon this scenario- What if the ‘aid convoy’ was transporting marines and arms to be used to support the malcontents on Kassigainen?
What if the ship had managed to reach it’s intended destination and disgorged it’s cargo intact? What kind of response do you think the State would have given in this event? What kind of response do you think the Gallente would have given in return? How many million’s would have died as a result?

Maldon Perriera
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:30:00 - [38]
 

This event shows what is wrong with both mercs and the caldari state both who care about one thing and one thing only. The all-mighty ISK. Why are the people at the station malcontent? Because they are not free, they are slaves of a government ruled by a corporation that cares nothing for them at all. Does no one else find it objectionable that the corporation has it's own PRIVATE police force? Who then is looking out for the rights of the employess? I will tell you who no one! They are rioting for working conditions that are reasonable but the state doesn't want any medical supplies or food to get through why? They want them to starve and die so they have to come crawling back to the corporation and work for scraps. The caldari state is no better than the ammar as this incident goes to prove.

Veto you have made an enemy and I hope an enemy of any corp I join in the future.

Faraelle Brightman
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:51:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Faraelle Brightman on 09/11/2006 16:56:39
So many people seems to assume that it was a Caldiarian interest that hired Veto, but for all we know it could have been a Gallentian. I don't want to sound like a conspiricy theorist, but it's not like Foirtian doesn't have enemies...

Remember that his "official" foriegn policy, even before he got lazy and complacent, has been open borders and free trade.

And I doubt two ships and 500 marines is a sofficent combat force unless they were planing on a suicide mission; the Caldari Navy could probably field many times that in a few hours if something happened.

Myndpyre Ryche
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.09 16:57:00 - [40]
 

In other words, regardless if the 500 marines were found or not, that convoy was getting attacked. Excellent. The Federation needs to understand it is not wanted, not requested, not needed, and not welcome in Caldari Space.

I will be making travel arrangements shortly to the Caldari Border Zone to check out the situation personally.

Even though I know you were not politically motivated, excellent job Veto.

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:31:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Sfaxtis
Federal marines eh? i am sure they were there to help Rolling Eyes


Originally by: Steph Wing
Edited by: Steph Wing on 09/11/2006 03:48:24
Edited by: Steph Wing on 09/11/2006 03:47:40
Originally by: Morn Judith
Since when are 500 Marines needed for a humanitarian convoy?


As I pointed out elsewhere, Federation marines are not an uncommon sight on Federation Navy vessels.


They are also not necessary to crew a freighter full of humanitarian aid.

Why were they there? Federation navy vessels have a crew, marines are not necessary unless they are on a mission or being transported for something.

Since they were not announced up front as being part of the aid force, my guess is the mission was clandestine in nature and there is a Caldari spy in the federation who found out about it. I am sure that a Federation Deployment of marines in a Caldari station would not be welcomed, as we can all see ; )

Perhaps Foirtraine is not the good natured humanitarian we all think he is...

Only Veto knows for sure and they are bound by a confidentiality agreement.

Hmmm I wonder what the price is for that information... I am sure it is beyond my wallet.

-Kal

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.09 18:37:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Kalixa Hihro

Perhaps Foirtraine is not the good natured humanitarian we all think he is...

Only Veto knows for sure and they are bound by a confidentiality agreement.

Hmmm I wonder what the price is for that information... I am sure it is beyond my wallet.


The first line made me chuckle, politicians should never be trusted, the last thing they are is "humaine".

The second line, is correct.

The third line is pointless, no amount of ISK could break the word of our corporation.


Oreh Anavrin
coracao ardente
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:33:00 - [43]
 

Good work. Humanitarian mission with freighters full of marines my @$$!

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.09 22:33:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Steph Wing on 09/11/2006 22:34:20
Originally by: Kalixa Hihro
Why were they there? Federation navy vessels have a crew, marines are not necessary unless they are on a mission or being transported for something.


As I said, it's standard procedure for Navy vessels to carry a compliment of marines on any voyage. It's a security measure, like keeping a core stabilizer just in case someone tries to scramble your warp drive out in the fringes. After shielding and engines lose power, Marines are a ship's primary defense against boarding actions.

Auele
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2006.11.09 23:04:00 - [45]
 

I would like to congratulate Veto for their successful operation. It is not hard to see their point because they are just fulfilling the terms of their contract.Moreover, no one can deny that it is their job as hired mercenaries. However, it does not necessarily mean that it is right. Annihilating a humanitarian convoy is not just outwardly wrong but repulsive.

Confused

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.09 23:14:00 - [46]
 

Indeed. No one here should be holding a grudge against Veto simply for doing their job. They are effectively tools to accomplish an end. Hostility should be directed against their mysterious contractors, but unfortunately we don't know who they are.

Gustovness
Broken Cannon
Posted - 2006.11.10 01:32:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Asmodeos
Third: Both sides have to take blame in this happening, gallente for just tresspassing without proper clearance even though their goal was noble.
And Kaalakiota for just standing by and letting this happen because it was a well intentioned shipment for one of their stations that was in severe disarray. And when your population is suffering why reject medical shipments it even doesnt have anything to do with solving problems on your own, you can still do that even tho you accepted some relieve for your populace.

Greetings Asmodeos.


And who the hell are you to decide what's in the best interest of our citizens? I'm sure this whole situation looked a lot easier when it was YOUR military with the weapons going into that station.

You Gallente don't make decisions for us anymore. WE decide what we should do and WE will decide what "good intentions" are. Or do we need another war to remind you of that? Evil or Very Mad

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2006.11.10 05:13:00 - [48]
 

I, for one, have no love for Veto. During their time as a pirate corporation Veto waged an undeclared war against Tyrfing Securities, ultimately expelling us from our former headquarters in Resbroko (which we now avoid like the plague). It seems to me that Veto has merely engaged in piracy on behalf of others rather than on their own initiative.
Would Veto be willing to accept a contract to destroy the mercenary corporation known as Veto?

Takanohana
Deep Space Explorers
Posted - 2006.11.10 06:56:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
Indeed. No one here should be holding a grudge against Veto simply for doing their job. They are effectively tools to accomplish an end. Hostility should be directed against their mysterious contractors, but unfortunately we don't know who they are.


This is an interesting statement. You're saying that if someone kills your family and friends you will have no bad will towards the murderers as long as they were paid by someone else to perform the task ?

I will just note that I disagree.

Vactet
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2006.11.10 11:28:00 - [50]
 

Blah blah blah.
VETO, verone, good job guys.
Not cause of all the caldari v. gallentee bull, but cause you had a contract and you carried it out.
And rather quickly from what i heard.
So again, good job. Oh and dont let all the whinny prepubescent kiddies get ya down.


Just a note: Pirates, Mercs, and Industrialists are all the SAME. They are all capitalists. So get OVER it.Rolling Eyes

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.10 15:03:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Nachshon
I, for one, have no love for Veto. During their time as a pirate corporation Veto waged an undeclared war against Tyrfing Securities, ultimately expelling us from our former headquarters in Resbroko (which we now avoid like the plague). It seems to me that Veto has merely engaged in piracy on behalf of others rather than on their own initiative.
Would Veto be willing to accept a contract to destroy the mercenary corporation known as Veto?


We did?

Bizzarely enough I do not recollect your name, or your corporation's name. As well as that I see no record of contact between our two corps on our corporate mainframe. It would appear if anything that you were simply cought in the crossfire of another conflict.

I beleive you have the wrong corp. As for the contract request, it made me chuckle.


EvilNate
Caldari
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.11.10 16:49:00 - [52]
 

Good to see the Gallente boys getting what they deserve for their treacherous behaviour.

Will be interesting to see what will happen from this point and what, if any, business can be generated from it, there should be some pretty depressed inviduals that might need a little "pick me up" to face the times ahead.

Nate.

Phoenix Lonestar
Clockwork Orange Ltd
Posted - 2006.11.10 19:09:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Phoenix Lonestar on 10/11/2006 19:11:05
Leave it to those Gallente cowards to hide behind their mini-invasion fleet behind the transparent veil of philanthropy. Must I remind you that 500 marines being sent into a colony of 1500 people is 33% of the existing population? Even to provide security the aid workers, surely the amount that was preparing to land is by any reasonable measure excessive?

Adding further insult, they then send armed Federation Navy warships (ships of WAR) into sovereign territory and scream to every ear that will listen that their overtures of friendship and kindness were cruelly rejected by the state. Mr. Foiritan, you cannot expect to ignore the Caldari State's request that you do not send vessels into our space and also expect the State to ignore your intransigence. You sentenced those navy personnel and the pilots of the "relief" vessels to death immediately upon signing their travel orders. Their blood is on your hands, not ours, Veto's, or your agents that paid Veto to initiate this tragedy. I must say, however, that I don't mind your methods... destroying Federation ships is always looked kindly upon by myself and my brethren.

Mighty Baz
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2006.11.11 07:33:00 - [54]
 

'With time, and true faith in God,' a friend of mine would say. Nobody knows what judgement of God is ...

Grand Master
Mighty Baz

Sudoku Acer
Posted - 2006.11.11 11:43:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Sudoku Acer on 11/11/2006 11:46:01
Since I´m quite new in this job, i don´t understand what the fuzz is about:

- An uninvited convoy was destroyed (help or not)

- VETO accepts the responsibility (whether or not - they did it and they will stand up for it (if anyone is able to make them pay)...but it´s a nice gesture anyway)

- You´ve worked out some nice scenarios..but one is still missing: would there be a better occasion than this one to make some reputation and get a lot of loot, attacking a convoy and saying: "someone paid me for it"? - You did bring some freighters along, didn´t you? Rolling Eyes

- As long as the caldary don´t give a statement what they think and what they will do about it, it´s just guessing around.

- Nice job done, Veto whatever your motivation might be...and your style is quite impressing...

Ugly Brute
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.11 14:36:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Ugly Brute on 11/11/2006 15:00:20
Originally by: Asmodeos


First: hearing this from someone without an objective view and whom is named Ugly Brute is laughable at best.




nice rebuttal your logic is impeccable...

obviously logic is invalid if you don't like someones call sign...

Steph Wing
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.11 22:41:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Takanohana
This is an interesting statement. You're saying that if someone kills your family and friends you will have no bad will towards the murderers as long as they were paid by someone else to perform the task ?

I will just note that I disagree.


If the "murderers" were professional hitmen, then yes, according to my logic I would hold no animosity towards them. Mercenaries do not kill simply to kill; they are soldiers for hire and kill because it is their job and someone pays them to. Are they blameless? Not entirely. Are they responsible for the destruction of the convoy? Not exactly.

The true culprit is the party that paid them. Had they not contracted Veto, Veto would not have destroyed the convoy. That is the difference between a simple killer and a mercenary.

Brujo Loco
Amarr
Brujeria Teologica
Posted - 2006.11.12 18:34:00 - [58]
 

As an Amarrian Ultra-Orthodox Nationalist, I look at these incident with these thoughts:

No self respecting entity, no matter how weak or strong will accept unasked for help

This same entity, has a sovereign right to defend itself from any unwanted incursion on its sphere of influence

The use of mercenary labor, while it has its drawbacks, its "a means to an end" that I respect

The fact the loss of life was staggering is trivial to the outcome, soldiers and warships are lost everyday on all borders, and this is just another sign of the endless struggle we endure everyday

Politically, on the other hand, this small skirmish, can have several repercussions, but that is beyond the point of the act itself.

Still, I dont understand why the Caldari dont deal with riots the same way we Amarrians do ... Its efficient and fast, there will always be more slaves willing to work for the pleasure of serving us. Its a known fact we have our very own methods of detecting riots and troublemakers before they happen, and quelling them before they even begin to start.

Perhaps the Caldari are, at this point, emulating our very own methods?



Myndpyre Ryche
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.13 02:56:00 - [59]
 

What most peeps fail to realize is that the laws that run Veto are the same laws that run the State. . . business and contract laws.

Just as Veto will not release additional information, because they know and realize that it is part of their contact that they do not, those on the border zone, and in this situation will refuse to speak as well.

To do so, and they are in violation of their contact, and can be removed. I hope I need not remind anyone here the value of a Caldari citizen who has violated labor laws and still resides within the State?

I would become involved in this situation more, but I have no contact, and therefore, have no rights within the state at this time.

Good luck.

Terraz Breek
Posted - 2006.11.13 12:51:00 - [60]
 

well handled Veto, well handled


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