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Fi T'Zeh
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [241]
 

Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ?

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri


I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN!

SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty.

edit; on page 7


You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?

Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader.

That's it, 3 checks per person.

So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc...



Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me.

marcouk2
Gallente
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:16:00 - [243]
 

Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ?


you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody Razz

redeyehunter
Minmatar
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:21:00 - [244]
 

I have not particular objections to the new Fleet Command Setup. I mean heaven forebid that someone who has trained for a commandship is actually fleet commander. I took time to train for a Claymore not only because of gang bonus, but as name class suggest is a "commandship".

Only thing I think the commandship really needs is a super targeting range boost even if cannons have no way in hell of hitting anything. For example 250km (or at least at range of longest range bs sniping range) lock range, so you can call targets for snipping fleets, just like real life feild commanders do a couple of miles behind front lines. the combat command ship can have less locking range because its supposed to be fightingVery Happy

If it had that kind of range I would be happy for the ship to be flashing colours of the rainbow to the enemy.Wink


This is just a suggestion.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:22:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: marcouk2
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
Someone might already have asked this, but wtf happens if my Fleet commander CTD's / lags out ?


you prob have to spend the next 20mins reinviting everybody Razz


That was answered already by TomB.

The fleet structure will stay in place but gang bonusses will not work until someone is promoted to take the fleet commanders place.

It seems odd if it removes everyones bonusses though since you would still expect squad leaders to give their bonus to their squad even though everyone loses the fleet commander's bonus.

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:25:00 - [246]
 

It just seems silly to me that in a gang to 2 people who are both flying BC's that if they both activate there gang moduals only one of the bonuses will be affective.

Kinda seems ******ed, but I guess thats just me. So whats the point of BC haveing gang mod bonuses?

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:27:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Sir Juri


I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN!

SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty.

edit; on page 7


You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?

Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader.

That's it, 3 checks per person.

So a hundred man gang has 300 checks instead of 9900, a two hundred man gang has 600 instead of 31 thousand, etc...



Now for what it's worth I agree that there should be some consideration given to the role of command ships and being able to support each other better along with delegation of roles in the gang. I also think people are over reacting though and accusing someone of making things up and speaking BS (which you still haven't apologised to the person in question for) is hardly the way to make your case. Neither is shouting at me.



I dont have to excuse myself to you or him, and I shouted cause its the third time someone replies to that comment and I dont wanna repeat myself. One on the same page mind you. But anyway I stated what I think in my earlier replies and see no reason to repeat it all again, feel free to comment those posts or just read them and be done.

PS: he posted his resourse and I replied to it, read that. And I made my case already.

Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:43:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Jet Collins
It just seems silly to me that in a gang to 2 people who are both flying BC's that if they both activate there gang moduals only one of the bonuses will be affective.

Kinda seems ******ed, but I guess thats just me. So whats the point of BC haveing gang mod bonuses?


its IS ******ed and its not just you

Gang mod = entire gang, otherwise they are limited hierarchical mods of crap

Andreaz Kotz
Morne Attitude
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:51:00 - [249]
 

So people with no REAL leadership skill that have spent the past year creating/training a character solely for gang modules will get their money back?


please?

Yggdrassil
Amarrian Missionaires
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:59:00 - [250]
 

Regarding wing/fleet commanders etc being called primary every time in a battle:

Would it be an option to create a mod that basically does something like this:

1. Increase all resistanses with 50%.
2. Increase ALL repairers, including remotes, with... 100-200%.
3. Lower all OFFENSIVE module/guns range with 99%.
4. Increase all recharge times with.... 200%. (to avoid being able to tank forever)
5. Lower cap usage of defensive modules/repairing modules with 50%.
6. The mods cycle time should be somewhat long - but not TOO long. 2-3 mins perhaps.

Goal: Give option to mega-tank the command ship to avoid being killed immidiately in a battle, while NOT rendering it immortal. If you take out the fleet, or the fleet warps away, their commanders ARE vulnerable vs a few nos'es and will burn easily.


Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.08 00:39:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.


I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?

Testicular Testes
Posted - 2006.11.08 00:44:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Spaja Saist
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.


I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?


This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages?

JForce
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.08 00:47:00 - [253]
 

I like it, but the distribution of gang bonuses does need to be looked at.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.08 00:50:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: Spaja Saist
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.


I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?


This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages?


The only reason?Very Happy Still it doesn't justify this as the only solution. I find it hard to believe that.

Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.08 00:57:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface
Gang bonuses should affect the entire gang other wise you have to call them limited hierarchical bonuses of crap .

No.


You can say no all you want TomB but he's right. You are nerfing gang bonuses for no real reason other than your need to nerf **** all to hell and back.

I'd like to see a reason for this nerf. But then again you've never given adequate reasons for the nerfing you do so I won't hold my breath.

Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:01:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Darpz
sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason

It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.

Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now

Person 1: X for gang
FC: would a squadcommander invite him.
SC1: sorry i'm full
SC2: Sorry I'm full also
SC4: Also Full
SC5: yup same
FC: SC3?
SCI: he must be afk
FC: ok will someone make a new squad?
....
FC: so no else can make a squad?
....
Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow


FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad...
WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing!
FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it
WC2: I mean that's so cool
Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite


This still won't keep it from being a cluster**** when trying to form large fleets. It can be a pain just setting up one with our current system. Now you want to implament this overly complicated system. And once again the Devs make changes without giving the player base advanced notice. Think of all the SPs waisted because of this.

Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:04:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Raucha
Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do.

That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight.



The problem with this is most gangs in eve today would fit in the SC class. Only alliance blob warfare would need a FC.

Dalekplunger Slick
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:34:00 - [258]
 

TomB - awesome changes. A++

I ask only two things


Please.
Please.
Please.

Let us rename fleets/wings/squads.

Give us Wing chat.


Thanks!

Spaja Saist
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:54:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Testicular Testes
Originally by: Spaja Saist
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.


I'm sorry but this is rediculous. Is there a reason you are nerfing gangs bonuses other than you seem to like nerfing stuff. What reason was there for making only one persons gang bonuses count?


This has been explained time and time again - lag. It a large part of the reason fleets are currently unplayable. Why does this need to be repeated every 2 pages?


It would be better if they fix their crummy coding instead of changing the way gang bonus work after 3 years. A lot of people have trained skills that will now be wasted.

Cell Satimo
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:55:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Ozzie Asrail
Just to give you an idea. Before a new player can hope to lead a proper fleet.

Skill Plan for Elise Exige

1: Empathy I (7 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:15:33)
...
71: Wing Command I (1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 07:16:10)
72: Wing Command II (5 hours, 38 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 08:28:53)
73: Wing Command III (1 day, 7 hours, 55 minutes, 51 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 14:07:35)
74: Wing Command IV (7 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 28/04/2007 22:03:26)
75: Wing Command V (42 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 06/05/2007 10:41:13)

Total time: 222 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, 20 seconds; Completion: 18/06/2007 00:28:53


I think your time estimate is unrealistic, given that learning skills and ship cruiser skills are on most characters already. Pure time to learn the 6m points required in Leadership is only 4 months Laughing

The good news (for me) is that I can start at point 70, the bad news is my game time has never enabled me to stay out on ops - my commander mode is typically AFK in a POS.

Can I have my skill points back to spend on something else please? Wink



Nightblade
Minmatar
Rage of Inferno
Burning Ambition
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:57:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?

Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader.

That's it, 3 checks per person.




You seem to be under the impression that the calculations for damage, etc., are all done client side. None of these checks are done per-person (I hope) but rather for each segment of the gang in the same system. And the results of resolving the gang bonuses will be the same for all characters in the same gang segment. Restricting the gang bonuses to only 3 possible gang members is basically just a cop out, nothing more, especially if it can be simply recalculated, reapplied and broadcasted when a gang member undergoes a session change.

Anyway, the short of it is there's no way in hell that this problem is anywhere near as complex as you're making it out to be. But then again, someone somewhere once thought bubble sort was a good idea, so who knows how it's implemented.

Admentus Cor'vion
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.08 02:33:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Nightblade
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
You do not see that a 3*N problem is significently easier to deal with and scale than an n squared problem?

Now each person in gang checks 3 people - squad leader, wing leader, fleet leader.

That's it, 3 checks per person.




You seem to be under the impression that the calculations for damage, etc., are all done client side. None of these checks are done per-person (I hope) but rather for each segment of the gang in the same system. And the results of resolving the gang bonuses will be the same for all characters in the same gang segment. Restricting the gang bonuses to only 3 possible gang members is basically just a cop out, nothing more, especially if it can be simply recalculated, reapplied and broadcasted when a gang member undergoes a session change.

Anyway, the short of it is there's no way in hell that this problem is anywhere near as complex as you're making it out to be. But then again, someone somewhere once thought bubble sort was a good idea, so who knows how it's implemented.



Biggest problem is "Hey, lets pile 3 months of skills to characters who wish to command gangs".

Nightblade is incredibly gifted in the math / science / programming genere, so I suggest everybody take an ear and recognize that if your not looking at the code your conjectures about what calculations cause X when may be fun and interesting and make you feel smart, but are irrevocably pointless due to the fact that most don't have exact specifications / code sitting in front of them as to how the current upgrades are going to work.

Hopefully that puts me down to 1, NB. ^_^

Sinnbad Mayhem
Posted - 2006.11.08 02:37:00 - [263]
 

Nice features. Hopefully once the lag has been reduced these features will be welcome addition.

At the moment, Lag has reduced EVE to ransoming nodes not people

S&M

Tareen Kashaar
Gyoza Society
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2006.11.08 02:57:00 - [264]
 

Yeah, I was gonna say...

With EVE getting more and more complex, and the UI being laggy as it is, PLEASE GIVE US MORE KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS!! Kthx.

Things that come to mind:
- switch active locked target
- switch chat channel
- lock/unlock targets
- launch/command/recall drones

I love this game's complexity, but I would love it even more if the interface was more user friendly :)

That said... lub the new system :)

Capt Harlock
Hunters Agency
Firmus Ixion
Posted - 2006.11.08 03:14:00 - [265]
 

my head hurts 0?

Trojanman190
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.11.08 03:21:00 - [266]
 

Simply amazing.

I absolutely cant wait to use this!

Golerre Evraun
Posted - 2006.11.08 03:46:00 - [267]
 

any chance you can add a "hey i need a can picked up" broadcast for our 256 man mining blobs?

Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2006.11.08 03:57:00 - [268]
 

Well for the most part it all sounds like good stuff, there are just 2 things that concern me:

1) the rank of these skills seems pretty dam high, I realise this is probably to make those “real” fleet commanders be the ones who train for and have these skills, as opposed to everyone who thinks they would be cool to have, the problem is that there are many people in lots of corps who Do have leaderships skills, gang bonus mods, and the ships to use them on, Also...

For some time after kali hits, I’m guessing at least a week or 2, alliances will be limited to fleets of 50 people, now I know TomB said otherwise, but that’s not what the actual skills on sisi say to my understanding, it seems by the descriptions on the skillbooks that the size in numbers of the fleet will be limited by the skills, so...

I propose that either the rank of skills should be seriously decreased to rank 1 to 4, somewhere around there, even if only temporally to be changed in a later patch, to make sure that it will not have an adverse effect on alliance operations, we are talking here about the security of outposts, POSes, carriers, dreadnaughts, freighters etc. Or, release the skills Wayyy ahead of Kali to make sure that those that need to command such fleets can do so effectively the day kali hits.

2) since Command ships and Carriers are now going to be the ship of choice for all fleet commanders wishing to give there fleet the edge of gang (fleet) bonuses, possibly a little carrier love is in order, I’m thinking a 50%+ bonus to fighter hitpoints to coincide with the 50% kali is bringing to all other ships, AND an option to toggle weather or not fighters follow there targets in warp, AND a bonus to capital remote reppers and possibly carrier capacitors in order to effectively use them in the longer fights that be in sue, not to mention the fact that the carrier with a known fleet commander will OBVIOUSLEY be called primary so I’m sure we will be seeing a lot more duel repper setups being fitted.

Hell I’m even tempted to say it wouldn’t be overkill to give them all an extra low (Armor tanker) or mid (shield tanker) slot.

</shameless carrier love>

su nutan
Posted - 2006.11.08 04:15:00 - [269]
 

Armored Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000
Armored Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000
Information Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000
Information Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000
Leadership / Rank 1 / SP: 256000 of 256000
Siege Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000
Siege Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000
Skirmish Warfare / Rank 2 / SP: 512000 of 512000
Skirmish Warfare Specialist / Rank 5 / SP: 226275 of 1280000
Squadron Command / Rank 6 / SP: 1536000 of 1536000
10 Leadership skills trained, for a total of 4,745,100 skillPoints.
Twisted Evil Oh, Yaa lovely hmm i wonder what job i'm going for LOL

Treelox
Posted - 2006.11.08 05:05:00 - [270]
 

great so now my high CHA is useless. I dont want to be a FC, WC, SC.

I like to STFU, and be told what to do, I dont consider myself a "leader" of fleet like activities. Well this now means that its useless for me to train "support" skills, gang links, since I dont plan on leading anything.

If this "NERF" to gang links, and their effects on your fellow gang/fleet/squad/wing m8's, is seriously due to lag reduction efforts. Then leave it as currently is, ill deal with that lag.
Or, Have it so that the FC designates the players that bonus will apply to the whole op, that should cut down on the system load issues. If you had all 4 types of gang links going, that would most likely only be 4 players skills that would need to be "checked" by all other gang m8s.

But seeing as how this is already on SISI, and TomB has already made his position clear with great answers like;
Originally by: TomB
No.

I guess that means we are stuck with this, so much for player driven content.

/me bends over and takes it up arse some more from TomB


p.s. can I now trade back 4 or 5 of my base CHA points for something more usefull to my style of play? Since you have changed command ships from a support role to a leadership role.


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