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Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:04:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
...


...


...


By the time you think in "3d" you will be dead Laughing


They've been trying Razz

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:17:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Pick Me
Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: jeNK
"Milking the cash cow" springs to mind.

So we have pvp alts/mains
Industrial alts
Research alts
+ more (capital alts/mains?)

and now gang alts.


That just shows how borked and broken the SP system is. When I started playing the CCP statement was; quote: "you cannot max out a character in a month, more like 3 years". Where do we stand now? 17+ real life years under ideal circumstances (+5 implants)?

I have 3 character slots on my account, let me max out a character once every 3 years, that would still mean I'd be a subscriber for 9 years. Heck I wouldnt quit because my character would be maxed out anyway, I'm playing the game for content not to have that content locked away for tens of real life years because of a skillsystem.

You cannot max out, it's specialization, in whatever you like so you are better than other that did'nt specialize in that. Now if you find it annoying and useless, you can change and start to train another specialization but you can always get back as you did'nt lose any old skill nor did you have to buy another character.

It's also nice to know that anyone you came across won't be a expert in all damage type, all ship type, all electronic warfare type... He will have FLAWS, just like you.

I don't see a problem in that design.


You are so wrong it's not even funny, the point of the guy who brought this up (and the sidetracking of things here) is that people don't accept that and simply create multiple accounts for it; ie an hauler specialist, mining specialist, pvp specialist, industrial specialist, scouting specialist, etc, etc. There is no reason spending more reallife money should give you an advantage (aka same as spending money to buy isk or buy a macro tool); sadly the current design of the SP system allows for just that. Plus access to content is restricted by the amount of money you spend. Make it so that the entire skilltree can be completed in 3 years time and the issue is gone, whilst keeping the advantages of the SP design and it will also actually be casual player friendly (for the current design it is certainly not, through the need of having multiple accounts).

If I ever find the time I'll do a full and complete analysis on it, with the focus being real life time required to be able to access all content.

I might be a pvp pilot but that doesnt mean i dont want to try to mine every now and then or research a BPO or build something or do some trading or do some exploration or do some salvaging, etc.

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:28:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Matrix Aran
Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


To me the irony lays in the fix they choose to make due to a design flaw with the core system (scratch it instead of fixing it), why not simply make it session change independent; keep a temporary record of the entire gang hierarchy per bonus. Once someone new joins the gang only his bonusses get checked against the temporary records and he's fitted in the bonus table at the correct hierarchy (say #2 for armor bonus, #34 for shield bonus etc). Change the bonusses applied when the #1 spot gets touched. This should be hardly any stress on CPU's for maybe the instance where bonusses need to be reapplied to all ships.

But then again I'm a sysadmin and not a programmer.

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:30:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?


Nope, he's not it was actually posted by one of the devs on the Kali forum....

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:31:00 - [215]
 

Why are so many people terrified of a commanding role? Take a chance and try something. It's a game.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:37:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: DrAtomic
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?


Nope, he's not it was actually posted by one of the devs on the Kali forum....


I allready responded to this statement and more from same guy, so read that instead.

Pick Me
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:38:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: DrAtomic

You are so wrong it's not even funny, the point of the guy who brought this up (and the sidetracking of things here) is that people don't accept that and simply create multiple accounts for it; ie an hauler specialist, mining specialist, pvp specialist, industrial specialist, scouting specialist, etc, etc.


Look what will happen when the standing become a lot more important, like gate fee, docking fee etc... The mission runner alt will be the only one with the standing, then even the research alt will need standing to lower the fee of research.

That was an example, because we already have cross-referenced high skill which result in the main and alts having to train the same skill to level 5. It's not usefull to have many in that case.
Quote:

There is no reason spending more reallife money should give you an advantage (aka same as spending money to buy isk or buy a macro tool); sadly the current design of the SP system allows for just that. Plus access to content is restricted by the amount of money you spend. Make it so that the entire skilltree can be completed in 3 years time and the issue is gone, whilst keeping the advantages of the SP design and it will also actually be casual player friendly (for the current design it is certainly not, through the need of having multiple accounts).


? You lost me there. The Eve skill system is known as the most casual player friendly system on the market, what are you talking about? Really, having your SP go up slowly at the same rate as the powergamers, how is that bad for casual players?
Quote:

If I ever find the time I'll do a full and complete analysis on it, with the focus being real life time required to be able to access all content.


Why do you want access to all the content? You have access to most of it with level 4 usually and Eve is the only game that add new content at this speed. You want all content, even the content we will get in one year? I don't follow you.
Quote:

I might be a pvp pilot but that doesnt mean i dont want to try to mine every now and then or research a BPO or build something or do some trading or do some exploration or do some salvaging, etc.

Again, you can do that today, you fight, do a little research, build something, all with your main normal skills. You don't need to buy a fighter, a mage, a summoner to do all the different stuff.

Then you specialize in what you like the most to be proficient in that.

Pick Me
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:41:00 - [218]
 

Seriously, is it so hard to imagine that you cannot all be LEADER in a 300+ players blob?

Maybe the 'Leadership' name should have given you a hint about what was around the corner?

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:42:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Pick Me
Originally by: EvilNate
zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool.

I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all.

Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too.

Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years?

Nate

Absolutely NOT. This is why most other MMORPG go straight to hell.

In DAOC for example, a guy has 3 high level characters in a 'gang' with a new one he just created. So they go into a very hard place and start to fight with some very interesting macros. If a monster hit the newbee, he is instantly killed.

One macro is taking the group to a monster if there is'nt one in front of them.
One macro is reviving the newbee char each time he is killed.
Other macro make them all attack.

So each time a monster died, it's shared between the 'gang' members and thus the newbee go up in level.

The guy let the macros run when he sleep or at work and each 3 weeks, he has a nice new medium-high level character to sell for RL money (about 100$ depending on competiton).

In Eve, it's impossible to do that because of how the skills system work. But thoses that still sell character would be too happy to raise their standing that way, AND, we should'nt have people in large gang like Bob be able to get anything faster than everyone else just because they are able to form bigger gang. They already have the 'large numbers' bonus with all that come with it.


You can already get standings up for someone else:

New character accepts 3 level 3 missions and undocks.

He gang warps the help to the missions and redocks.

Completes all missions on cue.

Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:46:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Darpz
sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason

It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.

Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now

Person 1: X for gang
FC: would a squadcommander invite him.
SC1: sorry i'm full
SC2: Sorry I'm full also
SC4: Also Full
SC5: yup same
FC: SC3?
SCI: he must be afk
FC: ok will someone make a new squad?
....
FC: so no else can make a squad?
....
Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow


FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad...
WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing!
FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it
WC2: I mean that's so cool
Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite


So an FC can create a squad, move someone into it to be commander, that does not have the skills in the first place to create a squad?

so one only needs one FC ever to create a fleet? same for bonuses?


Dunno about anyone else, but I feel Sir Juri has a point here. TS chat from the FC will be asking who can make a new gang, and unless an FC can make a commander out of someone who doesn't have the skills for it, the FC is going to get mighty ticked having to r-click all the names in all the gangs etc to find someone who has the 'skills' in their character only to find they couldn't run a drinking contest at a brewery that's giving out free beer or just not psychologically cut out for a leadership position in RL. Where as at least the old system meant your RL skills didn't matter much so long as your Character had the skills. Now not only does your character have to have leadership skills, but so do you.

Simply because something can be done, doesn't mean that by default that you should do it.

SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:54:00 - [221]
 

Before we get carried away... how would this affect the current war dec/ gang flagging system. If im in a fleet and another wing joins with someone at war with another corp (easily possible with 250 people) would all 250 ppl become flagged to allow others to shoot at them? or just the squad?

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:55:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: SengH
Before we get carried away... how would this affect the current war dec/ gang flagging system. If im in a fleet and another wing joins with someone at war with another corp (easily possible with 250 people) would all 250 ppl become flagged to allow others to shoot at them? or just the squad?


Yeah what about Lofty?

Freada
Gallente
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:55:00 - [223]
 

I am not any kind of fleet leader so I am glad I did not waste my time training for a command ship.

I just want to say good luck to everyone trying to put these multi-layered gangs back together and continue fighting everytime you crash the node.

Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:12:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Ozzie Asrail on 07/11/2006 22:12:17
Originally by: Freada
I am not any kind of fleet leader so I am glad I did not waste my time training for a command ship.

I just want to say good luck to everyone trying to put these multi-layered gangs back together and continue fighting everytime you crash the node.


Actually if your not any kind of commander, from what i read you did totally waste that time.

Unless your a one of the 6 commanders in a gang your gang mods and gang skills means jack.

EDIT: Woops, missread there. Butn the point still stands.

Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:18:00 - [225]
 

Just to give you an idea. Before a new player can hope to lead a proper fleet.

Skill Plan for Elise Exige

1: Empathy I (7 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:15:33)
2: Empathy II (35 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:23:15)
3: Empathy III (3 hours, 22 minutes, 55 seconds; Start: 07/11/2006 22:59:09)
4: Empathy IV (19 hours, 8 minutes, 4 seconds; Start: 08/11/2006 02:22:05)
5: Iron Will V (4 hours, 17 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 08/11/2006 21:30:09)
6: Empathy V (4 days, 12 hours, 14 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 09/11/2006 01:47:53)
7: Focus I (31 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 14:02:20)
8: Presence I (29 minutes, 38 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 14:34:03)
9: Focus II (2 hours, 18 minutes, 3 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 15:03:41)
10: Presence II (2 hours, 12 minutes, 18 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 17:21:45)
11: Focus III (12 hours, 13 minutes, 5 seconds; Start: 13/11/2006 19:34:04)
12: Presence III (11 hours, 58 minutes, 26 seconds; Start: 14/11/2006 07:47:10)
13: Focus IV (2 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes, 52 seconds; Start: 14/11/2006 19:45:36)
14: Presence IV (2 days, 17 hours, 7 minutes, 52 seconds; Start: 17/11/2006 12:53:28)
15: Minmatar Frigate IV (1 day, 9 hours, 12 minutes, 14 seconds; Start: 20/11/2006 06:01:20)
16: Minmatar Cruiser I (33 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 15:13:35)
17: Minmatar Cruiser II (2 hours, 35 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 15:47:00)
18: Minmatar Cruiser III (14 hours, 40 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 21/11/2006 18:22:40)
19: Minmatar Cruiser IV (3 days, 11 hours, 36 seconds; Start: 22/11/2006 09:03:06)
20: Minmatar Cruiser V (19 days, 13 hours, 34 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 25/11/2006 20:03:43)
21: Spaceship Command IV (16 hours, 36 minutes, 7 seconds; Start: 15/12/2006 09:38:11)
22: Battlecruisers I (40 minutes, 6 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 02:14:18)
23: Battlecruisers II (3 hours, 6 minutes, 45 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 02:54:24)
24: Battlecruisers III (17 hours, 36 minutes, 33 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 06:01:10)
25: Battlecruisers IV (4 days, 3 hours, 36 minutes, 42 seconds; Start: 16/12/2006 23:37:43)
26: Battlecruisers V (23 days, 11 hours, 29 minutes, 23 seconds; Start: 21/12/2006 03:14:26)
27: Leadership I (8 minutes, 15 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 14:43:49)
28: Leadership II (38 minutes, 30 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 14:52:05)
29: Leadership III (3 hours, 37 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 15:30:36)
30: Leadership IV (20 hours, 31 minutes, 34 seconds; Start: 13/01/2007 19:08:17)
31: Leadership V (4 days, 20 hours, 6 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 14/01/2007 15:39:51)
32: Squadron Command I (54 minutes, 32 seconds; Start: 19/01/2007 11:46:38)
33: Squadron Command II (4 hours, 14 minutes; Start: 19/01/2007 12:41:10)
34: Squadron Command III (23 hours, 56 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 19/01/2007 16:55:10)
35: Squadron Command IV (5 days, 15 hours, 28 minutes, 19 seconds; Start: 20/01/2007 16:52:05)
36: Command Ships I (56 minutes, 49 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 08:20:25)
37: Signature Analysis I (7 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:17:14)
38: Signature Analysis II (34 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:24:41)
39: Signature Analysis III (3 hours, 16 minutes, 16 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 09:59:24)
40: Signature Analysis IV (18 hours, 30 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 26/01/2007 13:15:41)
41: Signature Analysis V (4 days, 8 hours, 41 minutes, 31 seconds; Start: 27/01/2007 07:46:07)
42: Electronics II (34 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 16:27:38)
43: Long Range Targeting I (14 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 17:02:21)
44: Long Range Targeting II (1 hour, 9 minutes, 25 seconds; Start: 31/01/2007 17:17:15)

Ozzie Asrail
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:19:00 - [226]
 

46: Long Range Targeting IV (1 day, 13 hours, 51 seconds; Start: 01/02/2007 00:59:15)
47: Long Range Targeting V (8 days, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 2 seconds; Start: 02/02/2007 14:00:07)
48: Logistics I (42 minutes, 36 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 07:23:09)
49: Logistics II (3 hours, 18 minutes, 26 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 08:05:46)
50: Logistics III (18 hours, 42 minutes, 35 seconds; Start: 11/02/2007 11:24:13)
51: Logistics IV (4 days, 9 hours, 50 minutes, 15 seconds; Start: 12/02/2007 06:06:48)
52: Armored Warfare I (18 minutes, 10 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 15:57:03)
53: Armored Warfare II (1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 16:15:14)
54: Armored Warfare III (7 hours, 58 minutes, 56 seconds; Start: 16/02/2007 17:39:55)
55: Armored Warfare IV (1 day, 21 hours, 9 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 17/02/2007 01:38:52)
56: Armored Warfare V (10 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 18/02/2007 22:48:19)
57: Armored Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 14:15:14)
58: Skirmish Warfare I (16 minutes, 31 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 15:00:41)
59: Skirmish Warfare II (1 hour, 16 minutes, 59 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 15:17:13)
60: Skirmish Warfare III (7 hours, 15 minutes, 24 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 16:34:12)
61: Skirmish Warfare IV (1 day, 17 hours, 3 minutes, 8 seconds; Start: 01/03/2007 23:49:37)
62: Skirmish Warfare V (9 days, 16 hours, 13 minutes, 33 seconds; Start: 03/03/2007 16:52:45)
63: Skirmish Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 09:06:18)
64: Information Warfare I (18 minutes, 10 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 09:51:46)
65: Information Warfare II (1 hour, 24 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 10:09:57)
66: Information Warfare III (7 hours, 58 minutes, 56 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 11:34:38)
67: Information Warfare IV (1 day, 21 hours, 9 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 13/03/2007 19:33:35)
68: Information Warfare V (10 days, 15 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds; Start: 15/03/2007 16:43:02)
69: Information Warfare Specialist I (45 minutes, 27 seconds; Start: 26/03/2007 08:09:57)
70: Squadron Command V (31 days, 22 hours, 20 minutes, 45 seconds; Start: 26/03/2007 08:55:24)
71: Wing Command I (1 hour, 12 minutes, 43 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 07:16:10)
72: Wing Command II (5 hours, 38 minutes, 41 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 08:28:53)
73: Wing Command III (1 day, 7 hours, 55 minutes, 51 seconds; Start: 27/04/2007 14:07:35)
74: Wing Command IV (7 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes, 46 seconds; Start: 28/04/2007 22:03:26)
75: Wing Command V (42 days, 13 hours, 47 minutes, 40 seconds; Start: 06/05/2007 10:41:13)

Total time: 222 days, 2 hours, 13 minutes, 20 seconds; Completion: 18/06/2007 00:28:53

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:21:00 - [227]
 

Um, this looks very nice and I don't want to sound like I don't appreciate it, but ... please fix the lag :)


Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:22:00 - [228]
 

And thats on top of everything else a noob must have. So prolly 2008!

Cadman Weyland
Irn Bru Crew
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:23:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Ozzie Asrail
stuff


Oks TomB can i get a refund on 150 odd days training ?

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:27:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Kylania
Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work?

You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless?

My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Shocked


Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training).

He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads.

You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads.

Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag.

Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:28:00 - [231]
 

ccp should relize we dont want skills for something we could do before with out skills. What next Need to train docking 4 just to dock at a amarr station. Maybe stargate operation 5. Its bad enough you put in a skill for contracts but this new gang system is silly

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:32:00 - [232]
 

Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 22:32:14
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface
ccp should relize we dont want skills for something we could do before with out skills. What next Need to train docking 4 just to dock at a amarr station. Maybe stargate operation 5. Its bad enough you put in a skill for contracts but this new gang system is silly


Damnit you just reminded me of those skills to... OMG scanning skills new ones asswell and this... anything else? man now my stomache is starting to make sounds, and I aint hungry...

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:35:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?



It's an n squared problem.

5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people.

That is 5*4 lots of updates.

10 people means 10*9

50 people means 50*49

100 people means 100*99

200 people means 200*199

So 5: 20 calculations
10: 90 calculations
50: 2450 calculations
100: 9900 calculations
200: 39800 calculations

Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp?

Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members.

I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus.

So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked.

So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system,

And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point!


Still don't see why it's a problem?

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:38:00 - [234]
 

So, let's see if I get this straight.

How is a fleet formed?
First you make an ordinary gang. The gang is a rabble of slavering veldspar miners with no organisation. From the gang you form a fleet with order and hierarchy - it's Rome in space.

Who can invite to the gang/fleet?
The gang owner/creator and the fleet commander can invite people into the gang/fleet. This person may be the same or it may be two different people.
Can squadron commanders invite people (who are currently not in gang) into their squadrons?

Who assigns roles in the gang?
The Fleet Commander or the gang owner can assign people roles, and can top-manage the fleet.

Who do I get gang bonuses from?
All of your three commanders, provided they are in the same system. Period.
The commanders can only be given directions by themselves, and thus only receive gang bonuses from themselves if there is someone from their squadron, wing or fleet respectively in the same solar system.

Yeah, but that's a technical issue, what about in the future?
Maybe the fleet commander will enjoy creme de la creme of the gang, get the best bonuses the commanders below him offers. Maybe.

How large does the fleet need to be in order to get a wing or fleet commander?
Logically, a fleet commander can be assigned as soon as there's any number of wing commanders to be commanded. Wing commanders can be assigned as soon as there's any number of squadron commanders. Squadron commanders can be assigned as soon as the fleet is formed. So, you need 4 people to assign a fleet commander.
Is this true?

Ok, enough of the formalities, who can do the show-and-tell on the primary target?
The commanders broadcast this information to the people in their gang. This is a massive drawback, TomB! Gang-module using ships DO NOT have a place on the front line For squadrons the scout might be able to do this.

So. Who is the taxi driver? Who warps me around?
The commanders can warp everyone they command around. The fleet commander can warp the entire fleet around, for example - when you need that extra warp in lag.

---

All in all, it seems like the role of the gang skill and gang module has been drastically changed. It went from being the absolute support to being the central figure of a gang. I can't say this is good.
Essentially, the gang modules require so much capacitor, such an obviously specialized ship, and so much fitting that the ships running them in any serious number. In short, a gang boosting ship can not survive on the front line, where it needs to be. That is, if it is the commanders that do the useful broadcasts.

Not that it'd do anything to TC, or any other decent combat organisations that do not need such visual orientation for focused fire - we'll still do it the old fashioned way.
Essentially, the de facto fleet commanders will likely be a regular squadron member - giving the orders et al.

Over all, I think good changes with one exception - the gang bonuses should stem from the one with the best bonuses in system, like previously. Face it, it's the only way to promote people using gang modules - to make the role readily available as a support role instead of the commander role.

Eewec Ourbyni
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:38:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Kylania
Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work?

You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless?

My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Shocked


Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training).

He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads.

You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads.

Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag.



And if a corp used some intelligence up to Kali and had different people train for various leadership skills so the whole gang got a good set... then this new gang system has royally screwed them. And to those saying that they are leadership skills and to get over it... they haven't said anything up to now about making this sort of change to skills some have been playing with for 3 years. This has moved skills that anyone could train something in and benefit the gang as a whole to skills that only those in 'leadership roles' in a gang need to train.... and yet they seem to think more people will train leadership skills.... ummmm somehow I doubt it, more likely lots of folks will just scrap their chars as this impacts virtually everything you do in game in a group.

I foresee a major surplus of leadership mods on the market.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:40:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 22:45:56
Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?



It's an n squared problem.

5 people in a gang means each person needs updates from 4 people.

That is 5*4 lots of updates.

10 people means 10*9

50 people means 50*49

100 people means 100*99

200 people means 200*199

So 5: 20 calculations
10: 90 calculations
50: 2450 calculations
100: 9900 calculations
200: 39800 calculations

Then consider that every time you take a hit it needs to work out who is boosting your resistance. Every time you lock a target who is boosting that, how about speed, shield hp?

Every one of those things is constantly needing to be checked all the time by all the members.

I'm sure it only checks every now and then and caches the result but even so thats 39 thousand calculations every second for each gang bonus.

So with 12 gang modules, 5(?) gang skills and 4 titans thats 21 things being checked.

So that is 835800 calculations/comparison every time this is updated. For each of those comparisons it needs to work out if you are in the same system,

And that is just for gang skills - we aren't even considering hit points display etc at this point!


Still don't see why it's a problem?



I HAVE ALREADY ANSWERED THIS STATEMENT BEFORE! PLZ READ THE ANSWER I MADE THEN!

SO do I still dont see the problem? read my old replies, ty.

edit; on page 7

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:43:00 - [237]
 

Zarch AlDain, that is true unless the devs did it slightly less brute force and had the ships UPDATE when relevant - such as when a gang member enters or leaves system or gang instead of each time you take a hit.

If they did it for each time you took a hit, then the gang updates is the least of your worries - just consider all the checks the client and server would need to do on your own ship! Is the hardener running? Yes. What is it's stacking penalty? 23%. Add that in. Check. Oh! Oh! New hit. Redo. Is the hardener running?

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:52:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Your guy with the mining bonusses (who already has leadership 5 to get them) now trains the new skill 2 levels (2 hours training).

He becomes a wing commander and creates 2 squads.

You need 2 people each with leadership 3 (6 hours training) to become leaders of those two squads.

Everyone now gets all the mining foreman etc skills as before from 6 hours of training - and you have the nifty little ping messages available to help co-ordinate and the whole server has less lag.



Ahh, ok I was right about the format of it thanks!! Can't remember which skill it was, but Leadership III was a "required for something cool" skill anyway, so that's taken care of. And to be honest, the ability to have three people inviting (Wing Commander and either of the Squad Commanders right?) is a great thing.

Thanks for clearing that up!!

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.07 22:58:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Zarch AlDain, that is true unless the devs did it slightly less brute force and had the ships UPDATE when relevant - such as when a gang member enters or leaves system or gang instead of each time you take a hit.

If they did it for each time you took a hit, then the gang updates is the least of your worries - just consider all the checks the client and server would need to do on your own ship! Is the hardener running? Yes. What is it's stacking penalty? 23%. Add that in. Check. Oh! Oh! New hit. Redo. Is the hardener running?



Yes, that would help - you are still in an N squared situation but it reduces the frequency.

Each time you log off, or jump system, or eject, or dock you would need to update every member of the gang still - so that's with everyone in the gang updating.

Imagine a jump gate with a large gang now - each person telling every other person each time they jump, then recalculating each side etc.

There are other optimisations too such as sorting the results in gang and only searching down the list until you find the first match.

None of it changes the fact that the more people are in the gang the more load you get on an exponential curve. It also means that as you add more complexity along those lines you get more chances for obscure bugs and things going wrong. "we jumped three times and faught a battle and now I am getting Jonny's skirmish warfare 3 instead of Bob's skirmish warfare 5"

Unlike most people here I am starting with the (possibly optimistic) assumption that the devs are competent and do actually know how to code and how eve works. It therefore seems likely that obvious optimisations such as those have either been tried or rejected for some technical reason.

marioman
Caldari
Caldari Macrominer Waste Management
United Corporations Against Macros
Posted - 2006.11.07 23:07:00 - [240]
 

ehhhh....

layout and new tools etc = good

screwing over small-ish gangs and specialized gang assit characters = not good

There is no reason to remove gang bonuses from the flat gang. You say its so people use the new system? wtf is that saying about your own confidence in your new system where you have to **** people over to force them to use your new system?

You have ****ed over gangs of sizes ~20 people or so and those that coordinated with other people to train the different branches instead of one character training everything.

Like I said, if the whole reason from removing gang bonuses from the flat gang is to make people use the new system....that doesnt speak very highly of your abilities or the thought you put into the new system.

If the new system is so ****ing great people would want to use it anyway. It would be like if some1 released a new OS for the PC and said if you install this you can never use windows because we disabled it, but its so good you you shouldnt want to use windows anymore anyway, at the same time they muttering under their breath "Good thing we put that Windows lock on the new OS, I was thinking people might just go back to windows".


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