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flyinhedgehog
The Hoodie Mafia
Cosa Nostra.
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:19:00 - [181]
 

(rant continued)Shocked
Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) Iím sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itís a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.

In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itís properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/ner***e. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:23:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: flyinhedgehog
(rant continued)Shocked
Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) Iím sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itís a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.

In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itís properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/ner***e. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.



/signed it seemed great at first but now just gimmicky like you say, its getting harder and harder for me to see the point of the new gang system the way its presented now.

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:24:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?

Victor Valka
Caldari
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:27:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: flyinhedgehog
There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itís a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.


You can see where the enemy is on the map, both system or world. I can see how that is useful.

Derran
Minmatar
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:28:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Darpz
sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason

It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.


So why not make the carrier the 'commander' for the bonuses to apply and have someone else do the effective leading? I think it has been stated too that it was not really intended for carriers to sit in an out of the way place so really you are complaining about something player's really decided to do for themselves that the designers didn't forsee happening. True it is rather obvious but these are programmers.:) There is still also the rumor that there could be a T2 battleship designed as a command type of ship but that is only a rumor.

Originally by: Hardin

Okay I have read through the blog and all the replies and I am still confused.

I trained my Hardin account (over six months on Command Ships/Leadership skills) to fly a Damnation specifically set up to boost a gangs skills.


Um, you have been playing Eve probably as long or longer as me so you must have realized by now that sometimes things happen that make whatever you have anxiously trained yourself up for can be changed to work in an entirely different way. There is no way like with other games to retool yourself after they invent a new system you no longer want to pursue. I'm sitting with at least 12M wasted Skill points. That's just the way Eve goes.
Originally by: Hardin

It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action.

It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein. It is in my mind counter-intuitive that people who have trained for command ships should be forced to get themselves killed because of that choice - especially when there was no warning that this change was in the pipeline.


See above. It also likely will not be the last time there is a significant change with no warning. Plus, the overall commander would have still kept aprised of what is going on either by watching the battle firsthand or through his subornidates. In a fast paced GAME like Eve, it seems more nonsensical to me to not be there at all because you can't make quick decisions based on a change in enemy tactics. You can't really do that when you sit out in the middle of now where and can't even see the battle. I don't think anyone should apply the 'alt argument' because there is some people who don't have one and focused the command skills on their only character. The whole idea of sitting in a 'safe spot' (which after the Kali changes isn't going to be as 'safe' anymore anyway) is just a load of crap. What kind of commander leads a fleet when he doesn't even know what is going on? You are an RP'r, right? *suspicious look*

Originally by: Hardin

Maybe I am being dense but I this does seem overly complicated and I am a believer in keeping things simple.


Aim laser, make pew-pew, target dies, game over? I'd rather it be complex personally. My skills are ALL over the place because things have been so simple for years.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:30:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Originally by: Serapis Aote
you all know your actual FC doesnt need to be in the command slot to still lead.


He does if he wants to utilize all the new gang features.

which ones...
clicking targets to show up on overview...still probably faster and easier to just call it over vent.

Inviteing people to gang and assigning. I would think that if the actual FC told the placeholder guy to do it, he would.

I look at this structure more as a gang bonus distribution mechanic then a RL leadership mechanic to be honest.

You can plop anyone with the skills in the FC slot, and not much will change IMO. I could be wrong though.



Well would you know it theres another really cool fact floating about. Aparently it seems that currently on TQ one of the reasons for the nodes crashing during large fleet fights is the insane amout of CPU the server has to use to figure out which person in a 500man gang has the highest bonuses to be applied to everyone and it has to display 500 health updates to every client in the system. Now the server only has to display 20 health updates and calculate 31 diferent gang skill relevancies.

So basicly everyone who was screaming to the dev's fix node crashes is to blame for the nerf of gang bonuses. Kinda ironic eh?


Your just full of it, let me guess you started this BS rumor?

flyinhedgehog
The Hoodie Mafia
Cosa Nostra.
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:38:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Victor Valka
Originally by: flyinhedgehog
There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itís a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.


You can see where the enemy is on the map, both system or world. I can see how that is useful.


My point was that if your in a gang and you have assigned a scout, unless that scout is on comms and can tell you exactly what your facing the scout is useless. Any info about the position of the enemy would be given along with ship types etc. totally superceding (sp?) the need for that broadcast. The above can be said in gang chat...so its a gimmick Rolling Eyes

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:39:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Matrix Aran on 07/11/2006 19:41:40
Originally by: Oveur
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).

If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).

There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.


Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2

Edit: And also:

Originally by: TomB
-Health bars are now also just shown for specific part of the group, based on where you are in the gang. The main reason for this is to optimize the gang service performance as status on health wonít be send to hundred of gang mates. In detail:

* Fleet Commander will only see health bars of the Wing Commanders.
* Wing Commanders will only see the health bars of the Fleet Command and the Squadron Commanders in their Wing.
* Squad Commanders/Members will only see the health bars of their Squad Members and their Wing Commander.



from the Dev Blog itself.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:47:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 19:48:28
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Oveur
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).

If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).

There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.


Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2


Okey so they are gonna make a stress test, I find it hard beeing less stress on servers with broadcastings, many divisions, commanders, the new map and voice not to mention more options etc (and lets not forget what happens when its on TQ.)

So you wanna blame node crashes or lag on the current system by this post you read? Even then they could improve the current system without all the stuff it has now. My beef its the new skills, the over complicated results the new system cause, the restrictions it comes with and, and...

edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem Wink

Jagaroth
Black Moon Mining
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:48:00 - [190]
 

Can you allow the designated "scout" to tag? Might become useful then.

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:53:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri

edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem Wink


And people would complain how much more?

Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Collegium Mechanicae
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:55:00 - [192]
 

guess I can leave that Eos in hanger now and skip finishing skilling. Im a Logistics/Assist pilot. I bring the extra ammo, or the remote reppers. I try to keep everyone Else in fighting shape. I was even happier to get Gang mods (Gang mods, not Command mods!) because it allowed me to actually contribute to a gang without being a sniper or tackler. Im not a strategy mastermind, or a commanding genius, why would I be commanding people! Command is really the wrong term, same with Leadership skills. its not a Command ship, its Heavy Logistics!

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:55:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Sir Juri

edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem Wink


And people would complain how much more?


You?Rolling Eyes

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:59:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Edited by: Sir Juri on 07/11/2006 19:48:28
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Oveur
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive. It's also not the way we want to evolve gangs, the squads will get more specific bonuses if they have the correct group of roles, which directly penalize other types of roles in the squad (formation kind of thing).

If you have good commanders, you should benefit from it, if you have a load of mediocre commanders, you shouldn't benefit as much from it, if you don't have any commanders, you shouldn't benefit at all. That's just the same as traditional warfare. (Note, the level of commanders here is of course referring to their skill level, not their actual competency).

There are stress tests scheduled for the new gangs to compare with the stress tests of the old gangs on Singularity.


Taken from the Kali Testing forum sticky on gangs, page 2


Okey so they are gonna make a stress test, I find it hard beeing less stress on servers with broadcastings, many divisions, commanders, the new map and voice not to mention more options etc (and lets not forget what happens when its on TQ.)

So you wanna blame node crashes or lag on the current system by this post you read? Even then they could improve the current system without all the stuff it has now. My beef its the new skills, the over complicated results the new system cause, the restrictions it comes with and, and...

edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem Wink


If you want to form a simple gang, form a simple gang.

Some people want the ability to use a military hierarchy effectively in game and are not confused by this at all.

I'd much rather it be available and some people choosing not to use it, that for it not to be available at all.


Himani Yeshua
Caldari
PezCo - Ice Services
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:05:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Sha'Uri Dark

Oh and evenly distributed stats FTW!


Quite. I'm staring at my "Charisma 20" with much love atm. Twisted Evil

I expect the whinefest from the Charisma 3 brigade will be quite entertaining, once they figure things out.



base 6 Sad and i havent trained the charisma learning skills SadSadSad

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:07:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Sir Juri

edit; PS: they could just limit current gangs to 50ppl like with the new system for "old" gangs and have us use 2-3 FC's instead and decrease stress if its such a problem Wink


And people would complain how much more?


You?Rolling Eyes


Oh I probably would say meh and keep on going. Personaly I'm oposed to the watching paint dry style of combat that is fleet comabt, and I'd much rather be a member of a small fast moving gang than sitting on a gate for hours. But thats me. Sure people are going to have issues with any changes to anything in this game. At least the gangchanges in my view do two important things.

One. They help organise the chaos that is fleet combat nowadays by having multiple people to handle gang invites, a way for gang members to pass on info without talking over eachother on TS etc. Instead of having one dumb idiot on TS screaming warp to me followed by 50 people saying who are you in laggy unison now I can actualy right click the message he just send and warp to him. Also I can see on our new spiffy 3d map where that guy is in space. I can call primary targets without having people have to repeatedly ask who is primary because their mother just shouted at them while I was calling it. With few exceptions I much prefer the new broadcasts system to having people cluttering up my TS.

Two. I honestly believe it will reduce the lag posed by large gangs while adding functionality. The old system was written 2-3 years ago when battles of huge scales were a thing of dreams. Considering pretty much everything is getting a rewrite it would stand to reason the gangs are going to be less laggy. And if they aren't, well the two Devs that advertised otherwise are going to be feeling really silly.

Girdan Keirge
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:08:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Adam Reed
"gang bonuses of any kind (skills, modules) have been disabled completely"

...now, I know this thread seems to be all about combat, but I just want to check - this doesn't mean non-combat gang bonuses have been scrapped as well does it? The extra 10% yield for a gang with Mining Foreman level 5 is what I'm principally thinking of.
It's for all gang bonuses, if you want 256 people to mine in a single group you will need a lot of commanders with sufficient skills to command the groups. And then the Fleet Commander can boost mining for the entire fleet.

Sorry, but this is total crap.
Mining gangs have no need of such a complex hierarchy structure like a combat gang does.
Let us say I've got Mining Foreman 5 and Wing Command 3. I want to form myself and 15 others into a mining gang. Obviously I need to form 2 Squads since max Squad sized is 10.
No one else has Leadership higher than 3 (max 6 in Squad).
What happens to my mining bonus? Does no one get it because the Squads are 'inactive' because nobody has the skill to 'lead' it properly?
Do I default to FC and no one gets the bonus because I don't have the Fleet Command skill or can I just be a WC and have a gang with no FC?
What if the SC have some bonus to say shields but have more than 6 in their Squad? Some get the bonus? None get the bonus?

As you keep releasing more info about the system, it's overall sounding better, but there are still some poor decisions.
Mostly the gang bonus 'features'.
The gang assist skills/modules are a support class, yet you are now combining the support class and the command class.
Not the best idea.

The big uproar has been that fleets can't be formed until you have the skills, but it's now sounding like fleets can be formed, up to max size, by anyone, just that only people in the command positions will give any bonus.
If this is true, it's not too bad (excepting the already mentioned combining of the support and command classes), at least the command structure will be there for dividing into specialized groups.

No one is required to learn the Command skills but a lot of people have trained the gang support skills, some for months, but when this goes live, unless they spend a couple more months training the Command skills, they have wasted their time.
Commanders are commanders and Support is support. They are not one in the same.
By hinging the gang bonus on Command skills it becomes a requirement to train them.
I can train every gang bonus skill available to 5, but they are completely worthless without the Command skills.
You're trying to make commanding a mini-profession and it just isn't. Commanding requires mental abilities, not a skillbook.

If I'm understanding correctly, the physical gang leader does not need to be the FC/WC/SC and that's a good move, but the people who've trained the skills have to be in those positions to give the gang bonus, yet the FC/WC/SC positions are the ones that get the nifty command functions needed by a real FC.
Having the Command skills doesn't make a good FC/WC/SC.
Likewise, being a good Commander has nothing to do with giving gang bonus.

I totally get the concept you're going for here and I really like it, in concept.
There's just too much unecessary baggage to parts of it.
I don't like the second-account-commandship-alt-at-a-POS-for-gang-bonus state of affairs that exists currently, and making those who want to give the bonus have to be more involved is a good thing, but making the Support players have to be Commanders makes no sense to me.
Creating a 'bonus-giver' role is a possible option.

Moving the fence this way, this late in the game, is not a good idea.
Ask anyone who played Star Wars Galaxies how much they liked having their fence moved.
People spent a lot of time skilling and finding gear to compliment their playstyle and SOE changed the system several times in 1 year making most of their choices worthless (more than once).

Amthrianius
Keiretsu
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:10:00 - [198]
 

Pointless & unnecessary

Wasted time.

Azerrad InExile
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:12:00 - [199]
 

And here I was just about to train leadership skills for gang mods... guess thats pointless now.

Kylania
Gallente
Phoenix Industries
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:16:00 - [200]
 

Remembering for a moment that EVE is more than just 256 man fleet PvP.. how will this affect a small group of miners for instance? How would a 12 member corp mining op work?

You can only have 10 people in a squadron so right away you need two squadron commanders, each with say 5 people? But than Squadron B won't get the bonuses of Squadon A's leader? So you'd need someone to be Wing Commander who has bonuses to affect everyone? And all our little gang bonuses we had are now worthless?

My brain hurts from trying to figure this out. Shocked

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:30:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Matrix Aran
...


You want to be in a small gang not sitting at a gate for hours and you think this will change that?Rolling Eyes

And your wrong I dont like sitting at gates forever either.

Chaos in fleet combat? perhaps in your corp, but then its your problem, but if you call your FC an idiot screaming warp to me then, well this wont change that eitherRolling Eyes

Someones mom screamed at him forcing him to ask for the primary? then type it in gang chatRolling Eyes

Want to see where the targets are? if the scout knows what the hell he is dooing you wont need that feature. Want to see where your own guys are? shouldnt have to but yeah not all features are bad, but you think the Map will be so smooth for all of this?

Sorry but your lag issue still aint good enough, cause A I dont think so B, they could make it less laggy with other systems or this system better layed out.

Anyway my beef is with the new skills, it beeing too complicated it seems, restricted, command ships have to be FC's, etc, im still curious what kind of problesm it will all cause trying to organise all small gangs in one strike, I fear more chaos. I also worry about small corps/gangs without all of these command ship pilots and cant train for them cause they aint vet's, and have other priorities.

Nar'ja Jaden
Aspire Academy
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:36:00 - [202]
 

**getting prepared for massive flaming** ugh

I've read a lot of whining about these improvements. (Yes, I think they are improvements!) Along with prolonging battles by doubling Armor/Shield hitpoints they add a lot of strategy to mid- and large-scale battles.
EvE's never been a heyho-warpin-popall-logoff-goshopping kind of game, but one that needs intelligent gameplay. Yes it gets more complex, but hey, this is EvE for christ sake, not WoW! Smile
This game is called the most complex MMOG out there, so I think CCP is just adding to its reputation here. Wink
As for me, I didn't join to play a simple sf-game to pewpewpwn pretty ships in pretty space, but because they fly in a most complex virtual world, with more aspects to look into than most MMOGs could ever dream to have (and still look prettyWink)

Originally by: Hardin
It seems nonsensical to me that commanders who historically stay away from the frontlines to direct operations are being forced into the thick of the action.

It's like asking Napoleon to lead the line at Waterloo or Rommel to captain the first tank into action at El Alamein.

True. But the way it is now, Rommel and Napoleon only are simple alts sitting safe and sound back in Berlin or Paris in their living rooms, eating a sandwich. And just by mere magic, their strategic genius is somehow transfered to their troops by means of some items placed on the desk beside them. Talk about 'nonsensical'!
I agree however, that the new bonus handling has the potential to replace one extreme with the other. After all, it is a common warfare tactic to kill a commander in order to plant disarray into all enemy forces. In short: crushing the head of the snake.

Or is it?
  • A fleet commander is never to be found on the battlefield itself (even though some in this thread even complain about this) but has to lead his troops from a distance.

  • A fleet commander has also to be close enough to his troops for his leadership skills to apply to his troops. (talking rl abilities and EvE skills alike!)

  • To disorder the command structure (and its benefits to the opposing enemy forces) by killing the leader had been a primary goal to every battling force since Command Ships were introduced. Just through the omnipresent use of leadership alts sitting in safespots munching pizza, the real objective of these ships have been caricatured. They are combat ships, but they are used like (silent) additional improvements of any gang players skills.

Saying this I think CCP just reacted on an unwanted and unpredicted (mis)use of a ship and its assets. By placing it back where it belonged - alongside her gangmates on the battlefield. This change will beyond doubt mess up any long-term familiarized strategy. But it will also give the braniacs among the community enough challenge to think of new ones.


"There's nothing more persistant than change itself." Dedicated EvE players should know that. Very Happy

Babs Johnson
Unknown Soldiers
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:36:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: flyinhedgehog
(rant continued)Shocked
Comms seems to be much more seamless when someone else takes over and it means that anyone can do it (theoretically) Iím sure the person in command is already doing a lot with their mouse to efficiently be doing anything else. There seem to be some useless broadcasts as well...wtf is the point of enemy spotted. If a scout isn't on comms itís a pointless scout. Also no info apart from enemy spotted is useless, whereas the numbers, ship types, positions. Just seems like another gimmick tbh.

In summary sort out your priorities. Yes you need new content to keep people interested, but for god sake make sure itís properly thought through. Fix things that need fixing before you stick in a lot of half baked ideas that will need yet more balancing/ner***e. Sure there are some really good bits, but from my point of view it all seems a bit gimmicky, bit like the new star map zoomy thing.



/signed it seemed great at first but now just gimmicky like you say, its getting harder and harder for me to see the point of the new gang system the way its presented now.


Well obviously, no matter how pointless and ridiculously overcomplicated it may be, it's clearly a done deal.

Everyone may as well open wide, because it's going to be shoved down our throats whether we like it or not.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:37:00 - [204]
 

Guess we will all see when it hits TQ, but meh most of it sounds bad, even counter productive the more one reads it. But I wont know how this feature will work for a long while, cause I have other training priorities and not great charisma, so perhaps 2008 unless I happen to join one of these fleets in the meanwhile or buy a gang alt.

'nuff been said for me, time to wait and see!

marcouk2
Gallente
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:43:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: marcouk2 on 07/11/2006 20:49:25
Originally by: Nar'ja Jaden
Stuff


A good fleet commander always has to be on the front lines of the battlefield in order to know how the battle is going and to be able to call primaries quickly and accurately.
All thats going to happen now is a race between the two sides to see who can kill the opposing bc's first, crippling the gang. I thought CCP's aim was to make combat longer not just longer until the bc's are destroyed.

Anti Protagonist
Hiro Trade and Logistics
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:44:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Anti Protagonist on 07/11/2006 20:45:23
After reading over the changes (and actually seeing a few on Sisi before this) and the rest of the posts, I'm coming in in favor of this setup. It will take some getting used to, and likely tactics will change, but that's not a bad thing.

What would be a very nice addition to this would be tech 2 BSes meant to run as fleet command ships and an expansion of carrier abilities to run warfare links. I agree with those who have said that command ships (including carriers) should be on the lines with their troops, doing the commanding. I also agree with those who said we should be able to delegate more roles (i.e. tagging, or gang warping).

As far as the "sniper bs" issue: there's been much discussion of them making fleet battles shorter range, so the command ships should have no issue with hitting targets.

Jezala
Repo Industries
R.E.P.O.
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:53:00 - [207]
 

So Tomb presented to us some neat gang-invite tools, but one thing that has always bugged me is that would it be possible for players in a common chat channel to be allowed to self-invite themselves into a gang.

When a gang leader has 100 players to send invites to, it becomes a very tedious and attention consuming process. Would it not be better to provide the gang leaders with an option to open up the gang for self-invites to anyone in their Alliance channel, corp channel, or shared security channel?

So instead of having alliance chat spammed with ".68ft", ".freighter", "X", or "DOT!!!!!", why not provide a tool to gang leaders where they can configure the settings for gang invites and players can simply just right-click in their chat channel and add themselves into a gang.

Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:55:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 07/11/2006 20:56:27
Originally by: Oveur
A number of reasons for this change. We can start with the performance issues, the current model where it's the "best in gang for that attribute" is very expensive.


If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes.

Shamis

Matrix Aran
Reikoku
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:57:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
...


....


Actualy in the case in example I was the fleet comander, I was refering to the person screaming 'warp to me' as an idiot. And typing a persons name in gang chat doesn't let my guys imediately rightclick target him or her either. I like seeing where my targets are because it helps me think about the problem three dimensionaly, I can figure out what they're aligned to, where best I can stage a rally point outside thier scanner arcs. Its just one of those nice little tools I've wanted.

Now afaik, the entire system as TomB has said earlier in the thread will be fully functional, without any of the skills. The only catch is that to use the leadership mods, you have to have the command skills to use them in the gang. This personaly I think is a well deserved nerf for gang bonus mods. Other than that anyone can take over the fleet commander and wing comander slots and use the gang otherwise, just no bonuses. I don't really see the complications in it.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 21:00:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Matrix Aran
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Matrix Aran
...


....


Actualy in the case in example I was the fleet comander, I was refering to the person screaming 'warp to me' as an idiot. And typing a persons name in gang chat doesn't let my guys imediately rightclick target him or her either. I like seeing where my targets are because it helps me think about the problem three dimensionaly, I can figure out what they're aligned to, where best I can stage a rally point outside thier scanner arcs. Its just one of those nice little tools I've wanted.

Now afaik, the entire system as TomB has said earlier in the thread will be fully functional, without any of the skills. The only catch is that to use the leadership mods, you have to have the command skills to use them in the gang. This personaly I think is a well deserved nerf for gang bonus mods. Other than that anyone can take over the fleet commander and wing comander slots and use the gang otherwise, just no bonuses. I don't really see the complications in it.


By the time you think in "3d" you will be dead Laughing


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