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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.07 15:55:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Mr Ninjaface
TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something.


Agreed. How about just a blanket much-faster locktime on your squadron mates, for instance? We all agree that Logistics still needs some help in order for it to become useful in fleets, and one of the major gripes is the slow locktime on gangmates. If being in the same squadron gave a locktime bonus on each other, that imho would help logistics nicely.

EvilNate
Caldari
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2006.11.07 15:58:00 - [122]
 

zomg!! This stuff is really so fracking cool.

I have a question about the new gang system that doesn't relate to pvp at all.

Currently in pretty much any MMORPG, when a player does a mission/quest/whatever, he is able to share that mission/quest/whatever with another player. That player can the recieve a split of the LP and standings gains too.

Any chance we will see this implemented any time in the next 2837492874 years?

Nate

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 15:58:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Darpz
sorry don't like it. I like the interface changes, but I don't like the new gang setup for a numbers of reason

It nerfs carriers and command ships hard since it forces them to be commanders for the gang bonus's to apply but this doesn't work normally because well carriers sit in safe/pos away from battle and command useually do that same or are support killers since they do not have the ablity to work at the ranges that battles happen.

Its overly complex- yes its cool to read about but its just to complex. Running a fleet is complex enough without having to worry about inviting people into that mess. I can see TS now

Person 1: X for gang
FC: would a squadcommander invite him.
SC1: sorry i'm full
SC2: Sorry I'm full also
SC4: Also Full
SC5: yup same
FC: SC3?
SCI: he must be afk
FC: ok will someone make a new squad?
....
FC: so no else can make a squad?
....
Person 1: nm i'm going ot play wow


FC: hey wait I can invite anyone into any squad...
WC1: oh yeah I can invite anyone to any squad in my wing!
FC: dude I can even create a new squad and move some dude from some other squad to a commander position of it
WC2: I mean that's so cool
Gang Creator: hey I can do everything that the fleet commander can do, move people around and invite


So an FC can create a squad, move someone into it to be commander, that does not have the skills in the first place to create a squad?

so one only needs one FC ever to create a fleet? same for bonuses?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.07 15:59:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Mongo Smith
Thanks for the prompt responses TomB.

Not sure if its been mentioned before or not, one feature that would be useful would be the ability to rename each wing/fleet/squadron to aid in the organisation.


Seconded on both counts. Thanks for the feedback TomB, and yes, being able to give names to squadrons/wings would be very nice and would reduce the confusion.

"Snipers" is a lot less confusion-inducing than "Squadron 2" Very Happy

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:00:00 - [125]
 

Yeah TomB... thanks for the quick response.
Naming each squad (Blue, Red, Green, etc...) might help when issuing orders on a larger scale operation.
Cool

Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:00:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Mr Ninjaface
TomB you added all the board cast stuff etc (i need cap armor/shield) The current targeting system makes cap transfers sheild transfers hard during battle if you have say a cap transfer on your apoc but you also have 7 turrets. You then have to lock you friend and cap transfer him then in the heat of the battle remember not to start shooting the crap out of him because hes locked. Can we have a sperate locking system for gang mates on that you cant activate hostile modules on unless you specify that you want to do so or something.


Agreed. How about just a blanket much-faster locktime on your squadron mates, for instance? We all agree that Logistics still needs some help in order for it to become useful in fleets, and one of the major gripes is the slow locktime on gangmates. If being in the same squadron gave a locktime bonus on each other, that imho would help logistics nicely.



hardly worried about lock time but for example.

you ask for cap your gang mate locks you and starts cap transfers while fighting some other guy.

FC calls a new target say a BC. The guy locks it and activates his guns (f1-7 (8 is cap transfer)) But then before he gets his guns off guy in squad 2 in his maelstrom gets a wreaking hit from 3 of his guns and the BC insta pops. Your guns then cycle to the guy your cap transfering because suddenly as you activated your weapons your target was gone.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:03:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
Yeah TomB... thanks for the quick response.
Naming each squad (Blue, Red, Green, etc...) might help when issuing orders on a larger scale operation.
Cool


We demand a Pink Squad!

Cool

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:06:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Mr Ninjaface

hardly worried about lock time but for example.

you ask for cap your gang mate locks you and starts cap transfers while fighting some other guy.

FC calls a new target say a BC. The guy locks it and activates his guns (f1-7 (8 is cap transfer)) But then before he gets his guns off guy in squad 2 in his maelstrom gets a wreaking hit from 3 of his guns and the BC insta pops. Your guns then cycle to the guy your cap transfering because suddenly as you activated your weapons your target was gone.


Ah, yeah. I've done the friendly fire vs logistics thing myself once Embarassed

Not sure how to solve that, tbh.

Raucha
A.W.M
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:11:00 - [129]
 

Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do.

That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight.

Celestis Kudzu
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:18:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5?

Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)?

Kanuo

Umbriele
Gallente
Natural Inventions
Solyaris Chtonium
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:18:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Sensi Milla
A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit.


You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.


TomB, how this will apply to mining gang bonuses? Do we need commanders to get the mining foreman bonuses and the (still broken) mindlink bonus?

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:26:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 07/11/2006 16:39:03
nvm, figured it out.

Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:27:00 - [133]
 

Will there be an autopromote feature? You could tag your direct subordinates in order to take your place in case you pop, if they have the skills.

Also, will ships spotted by scouts appear on the map. "Enemy Spotted" usually doesn't cut it for an FC, he/she needs ship composition and complement as well, if there's a bubble, etc.

Umbriele
Gallente
Natural Inventions
Solyaris Chtonium
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:27:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Kai Lae
One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :)

BAH I'll get right on it


Contracting skill too please....

Rafein
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:29:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Raucha
Just because you're in a SC/WC/FC slot, doesn't mean you actually have to be in command of anything. Well, OK the FC/WC probably will be, but the SCs sure don't. If the WC can warp the Wing, the SCs can just hang out for the ride. Or, the SC/WC can be navigator and admin type, while another member of the gang uses something like, I dunno, TS or Vent to actually tell everyone what to do.

That's how it works in a lot of gangs now anyways - gang leader does navigation and admin, while someone else in the gang actually directs the fight.



Well, the SC would be needed to give bonuses to that squad, if your caring about bonuses.

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:29:00 - [136]
 

I am a little confused but I am sure once I can test it out it will be good. I love the broadcasts and the idea that you need to keep your commander alive. This is good stuff Tomb!!

Two major concerns though:

1) You say that commanders not reciveing other people's bonuses is a technical issue, but then seem to dismiss it as insignificant. Its really not! This MUST be fixed before Revelations comes out, its just crushing for smaller groups who dont have the luxury of lots of non-command people to receive the bonuses, and really need the commander to be fighting at full ability with the rest of the squad. Its not acceptable for it to be left lying around for months, as it just penalises small gangs and highly-specialised people.

2) How does it work for a small gang (6-10) that frequently uses two command ships separate from the normal ganglead? (so two people distributing bonuses from modules, and one calling targets, gangwarping and also has some gang skills so gives some minor bonuses there). I am guessing that such a small group (that has trained carefully to use the exact combinations that work for them to high specialisations, and work together as a team) would have the rather clumsy system of forming two squads in a wing, with the (actual tactician) commander as a Wing Commander, the two command ships as Squad Leaders, (Despite the fact that there's few enough people that only one squad and one squad commander would be normally needed) and therefore everyone would get their needed bonuses (EXCEPT the Wing Commander unless you fix that issue above)?

OR: can the second wing not receive benefits from the first wing's command ship/leader, so in fact the only way to get the bonuses around in this system is to form a FLEET (for TEN people??) and have one command ship as the Wing commander, the second as the squad commander, and the poor actual commander has to train up to be a Fleet Commander?

If the former its not a problem with the system as such, its just very inelegant for small gang combat. Imagine that, as sometimes we do, such a small gang wanted to use all 4 command ships, giving very powerful bonuses across their small gang, but sacrificing 4 damage ships (or only using one link on field commands) for that benefit, they would need to form 4 squads in a wing to get the benefit they have specialised for so long in.

If the latter it is completely contradictory to your stated goal: "The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players." In large situations MANY people will need these high-demand skills (ok!), and in small gang situations nobody will bother with command ships because to get some nice combos of bonuses you will have to have half your corp "in command"!. This is a nasty, unneeded nerf to small gang combat if so.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:35:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Two step
Does the bonus comign from squadron, wing and fleet commanders mean that you can get 3 bonuses stacked? Or is it just the highest bonus like it is now?


Highest bonus counts, like how it is now.

But you will be able to get 3 different bonuses though right. Just not be able to stack 3 identical bonsuses.

Lily Savage
CryoTech
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:36:00 - [138]
 

FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets?

Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets?

PCX339
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:37:00 - [139]
 

I know it's been mentioned but PLEASE make the gang window detachable in some way. Right now the overview + drones + gang = not enough space. Any drone or fighter user who wants to monitor the status of his units in space will run out of space VERY fast.

Just adding my voice to the din...


Frools
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:40:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Lily Savage
FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets?

Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets?

guess you'd just have to call targets the old fashioned way, over vent/ts Razz

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:40:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:45:22
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:43:33
Originally by: Lily Savage
FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets?

Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets?


Maybe, just maybe, CCP doesn't want you to park your carrier (and FC) in a safespot.

Not that it would be very smart in Kali, anyway. The new probe system looks like it will make safespots something you don't want to sit in for over half a minute if there's a hostile covops in the same system. Busting them will be easy and ultrafast, especially when looking for big ships like a carrier.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:45:00 - [142]
 

TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm?

I hope you can answer on thisVery Happy

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:47:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm?

I hope you can answer on thisVery Happy


I asked twice allready here, but no answer Crying or Very sad

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:49:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: NightmareX
TomB, is the 'Warp To 0km' option going to hit TQ, yes or no?, or are that only on sisi to reduce some lag since sisi can't handle so many peoples atm?

I hope you can answer on thisVery Happy


I asked twice allready here, but no answer Crying or Very sad


Yeah i know, so i just thinked oh well lets ask him to, maybe he will answer thenVery Happy

Lily Savage
CryoTech
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:49:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:45:22
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/11/2006 16:43:33
Originally by: Lily Savage
FC in a carrier at a safe spot - how's he going to call targets?

Can other ppl apart from the FC call targets?


Maybe, just maybe, CCP doesn't want you to park your carrier (and FC) in a safespot.

Not that it would be very smart in Kali, anyway. The new probe system looks like it will make safespots something you don't want to sit in for over half a minute if there's a hostile covops in the same system. Busting them will be easy and ultrafast, especially when looking for big ships like a carrier.


I think you're right, but as previously noted, the FC is going to be a big target #1.

Perhaps fleets are intended to look like scaled up models of ASCN's team in the last championships? A kind of armour repping circle jerk?

SengH
Black Omega Security
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:51:00 - [146]
 

Are gang bonuses still subject to the limitation that they affect people in the same system and undocked? If so wouldn't a logical compromise be to allow gang bonuses to affect people not in the same system, given the new restrictions. (With increasing range as fleet/wing command skill increases (its a rank 12 skill ffs).

Miranda Duvall
Gallente
Saberick Interest and Development
Free Traders of EVE
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:51:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Miranda Duvall on 07/11/2006 16:53:37
Would it be possible to get a skill rename? Just for clarity..

As it stands now:

you can command a fleet: Fleet Command
you can command a wing: Wing Command
you can command a squadron: Leadership
you are very good with gang modules: Squadron Command

Please change it into:
Current "Leadership" becomes "Squadron Command"
Current "Squadron Command" becomes "Warfare Link Specialist"

All the names then actually reflect what they do, keeping the current "Squadron Command" as is will generate a lot of confusion, and if you're ever going to change it, now is the time, since it's all new to all of us anyway.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:59:00 - [148]
 

I have a question:

You say that the Commanders not recieving each others bonuses is a bug that'll be fixed. So lets pretend its already fixed.

Me and my mate decide to go yaaaaar for a bit. I have Skirmish Warfare 5, he has Siege Warfare 5. Would it be possible for me to make myself Wing Command, and him Squadron command? Say there are 3 of us, Could I be Fleet Com, matey#1 be Wing Com, and matey#2 be Squad Com (so #2 gets all bonuses, #1 gets his and mine bonuses) despite there being no actual Squad Members?

In other words, is it possible to have everyone in gang Commanders (all up to 31 of us) with no members?

Seems a bit silly.

Anyhow, love the whole new Gang thing. EVE just got many deggrees better Very Happy

Parallax Error
Amarr
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 17:04:00 - [149]
 

I like the general idea, but I have got a big issue with the whole plan is that of the gang assist modules only being applied to the people you command.

If this goes through, to use gang assists you have to become an exceptionally obvious target or lose a lot of the functionality of the new system. It's a massive change to the way anyone using gang assists play, you have to now assume a front line command role or your screwed.

I can understand why having to check so many peoples skills in large gangs causes lag, but can we not have a gang support role assignable like the current scout role? If the leader of the formation isn't using gang modules they can set one person to be their proxy instead? So for instance the Fleet Commander could set one pilot as Gang Support instead of themself and that person would then affect the entire fleet. Then each Wing Commander could do the same?

Rafein
Posted - 2006.11.07 17:08:00 - [150]
 

you already are a taget when running gang assist mods, cause the only ones wo can run tham are BC's. It's pretty east to pck out who is running the mods.


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