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Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:50:00 - [61]
 

... im clueless tbh, with so many things, guess Il wait till its released before anything makes sense. Oh and Tomb, is everything gonna have warp to 0km on TQ? or is it just for SISI? and no such change is taking place?

CCP TomB

Posted - 2006.11.07 13:53:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.

Elve Sorrow
Amarr
Celestial Apocalypse
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:53:00 - [63]
 

So Command ships only give a bonus if their pilot is a Squad/Wing/Fleet Commander now, yes?

That's somewhat annoying though, because for an FC it helps if they can lock the target the rest of the fleet shoots aswell. BCs, while having decent range, just dont cut it compared to the Tech2 sniper BSs, mainly because of the lack of range bonus that HACs have.

Besides that, i assume the whole gang setup will be used for the VoIP when its introduced? Squad broadcast, Wing broadcast etc?

Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:55:00 - [64]
 

I have a question i wish answered...
A couple actually let me start

Is there still only going to be 1 Gang leader? that can invite people? or Are all the
Fleet Commander, Wing Commanders, Squad Commanders going to invite people? or is the fleet Commander going to be the one who always has to be there inviting people?

Can the Gang Leader not be any of the above? Just assign who is who? And do the warping, Understand that alot of people don't have instas when raiding but some do, Changing who is Wing Commander just so they can gang warp and loosing bonas, And Loosing the gang setup becuase they don't have the skills to lead the gang anyways....

CCP TomB

Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Adam Reed
Hang about...

"gang bonuses of any kind (skills, modules) have been disabled completely"

...now, I know this thread seems to be all about combat, but I just want to check - this doesn't mean non-combat gang bonuses have been scrapped as well does it? The extra 10% yield for a gang with Mining Foreman level 5 is what I'm principally thinking of.

It's for all gang bonuses, if you want 256 people to mine in a single group you will need a lot of commanders with sufficient skills to command the groups. And then the Fleet Commander can boost mining for the entire fleet.

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:56:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Sensi Milla
A gang limit of 50 will needlessly cripple alliance combat when Kali hits, since nobody will be able to train the skills until they are released - and even then, with good skills it will take at least a month to match a 50 man gang limit.


You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.


Now I'm confused. I thought the new skills affected the number of members you could have in your squadron, or the number of squadrons you could have in your wing, etc... but the above implies that you could form a max-size fleet with zero Leadership skills.

How does that work?



Erm, brother, it's in the blog: You form a regular gang (up to 256 whatever) but zero gang assist skills and modules and apply (nerf!).

Then you skill the skills (and I somehow doubt you'll get a rank 8 skill to IV in 7 days with a low primary charisma attribute, but got no character manager here) and form happy Squadrons and Fleets, where the gang assist modules and skills of the commanders work again, plus you get spiffy GUI enhancements (pretty damn cool looking, but the gang assists are still not completely unnerfed since squad members skills won't count).

Then you get your commander shot up and lose all the gang assists again until you assign a backup commander.

I've got a feeling there's gonna be a merry hell of a confusion in major fleet engagements till people get this practised right, but the worst that's gonna happen is no gang assists till fleet command manages to cobble together a proper hierarchyagain.

Apertotes
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:57:00 - [67]
 

will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way?

at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct?

CCP TomB

Posted - 2006.11.07 14:00:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Apertotes
will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way?

at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct?

You might see:

[Broadcast Window]
A Mate > Need Armor Repair!

You clickit
You get option "Lock Target"
You select it
You activate your remote repairers
He still dies
I loot him
YARRRR!!

Apertotes
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:07:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Apertotes
will pilots be able to interact with gang mates that are on another squad? for example, if i am flying a logistic ship on squad #17, and a mate on squad #23 needs some help, will i be able to help him or will he die in a horrible way?

at least, if i understood right, i wont be able to see his HP, so i will only be able to help if he sends a broadcast petition. am i correct?

You might see:

[Broadcast Window]
A Mate > Need Armor Repair!

You clickit
You get option "Lock Target"
You select it
You activate your remote repairers
He still dies
I loot him
YARRRR!!


you? and how many more? Mad are you bringing your jove mates too?

damned jove... it's like having ronaldinho on your team.

anyway, good luck with all the testing. this could be a great new feature.

Silvero
Gallente
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:07:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Silvero on 07/11/2006 14:07:52
How is the moving around gonna work for the diffrent squads/wings:

Previous Question ?


G Dabak
Magellanic Itg
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:09:00 - [71]
 

Are you considering adding more roles such as someone who can invite or warp at the fleet/wing level who is not a commander of either? Dedicating someone to keeping the squads filled or moving the fleet around would free up the commanders to worry about larger things.

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: LC Sulla on 07/11/2006 14:12:52
Edited by: LC Sulla on 07/11/2006 14:11:42
If I'm reading this right then we will start to see more specialised squads forming led by a squad leader with highly developed, but specialised, leadership skills. But there does seem a slight inconsistancy that I would like to see addressed.

For purposes of example lets consider a 10 man squad acting as the scout group for a fleet and remaining about 1-2 jumps ahead of the main fleet. So we could imagine this squad has some covert ops, force recons and interceptors. Our 'specialist' squad leader might have Skirmish Warefare Specialist IV, Squadron Command IV (for the link module bonuses - gather it will be renamed after Kali). In order to pass his bonuses at a maximum level to his squad he really needs a BC sized ship with link modules. This seems unsuitable for a squad whose sole responsibility is focussed around fast movement.

Is there any plans for smaller command type ships which could mount a single link module? Something like a fast lightweight command cruiser or even allow a force recon to mount a single link module...

Food for thought Smile.

Kanuo Ashkeron
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:10:00 - [73]
 

What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5?

Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)?

Kanuo

Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:12:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: TomB
Originally by: Jet Collins
Ok Queston?

OK a gang of 2 corp m8 join togeather to do whatever.
One memeber has trained a crap load of Seige warfare skills
The other member has trained a crap loan of Skirmish warfar skills.

In the Current system both gang members get both bonuses.

In the new system The leader gets no bonuses and the gang M8 only gets the bonuse of the leader... If this correct?

If so this compleatly blows.

Yup, decide if you want the one with the siege or skirmish to lead.


Thanks

Well the good news than I don't need to bother with 50 more days or training seige skills.
The bad news I have waisted 20day :p.

QwaarJet
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:16:00 - [75]
 

Looks too complex tbh. The broadcast system looks good, but the changes to gang structure look very bad. I think we'll see most people just sticking with normal gangs unless there is a fleet battle, in which case there will be even more confusion than normal, although at least TS/VENT will be clearer.

Sir Juri
Caldari
Gangbus
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:18:00 - [76]
 

So if one has leadership lvl5 (the one existing now) and the other rank 2 skills (the ones existing now to) giving more armor/shield etc without gang modules, will they be able to have a squadron of 10ppl with the bonuses applied from those rank 2 skills?

And can run that squad alone and as a squad in a fleet? without training the new skills?

Swamp Ziro
Ultimate Betrayal.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:20:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Kanuo Ashkeron
What happens if someone has fleet/wing command not at level 5?

Can he still form a fleet/wing and his bonuses only apply to a part of it? Or are there no bonuses at all if the fleet/wing exceeds his maximum size (skillwise)?

Kanuo


Good question. I'd like to know too.

Murtac
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:21:00 - [78]
 

There's a bunch of problems with this:

1) Forcing command ship pilots to be in the same grid makes sense, somewhat (even though it will lead to them sitting 500km away from the battle whenever possible), but forcing them to be squad/wing/fleet leaders doesn't. It forces us to appoint people as leaders who have no leadership capabilities (speaking of the person here, not the toon) just because they are the only ones who have the skills trained.

2) The gang unit size limitations are very impractical. A small fleet has, say, 12 battleships, 11 cruisers and 14 tacklers. Most FCs would like to put these into three groups, with one leader each, but the current system forces us to divide them into 3 wings with 2 squads each. That means we'll have 6 squads and 10 leaders (1 fleet, 3 wings, 6 squad). Sounds excessive...

3) Most fleets will want to split their members by shiptype. Bringing a command ship along to get the bonuses is just not possible in, for example, a ceptor wing. So, no gang bonuses for ceptors and (agile) cruisers. A sniper BS squad might bring a command ship along, but the command ship won't be able to do anything because it doesn't have the range.


Garia666
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:22:00 - [79]
 

*SNIP*so i have trained for my damnation with all its skilz and implants and the only way my bonusses will help is when i am a commander..

WHy the hell did you gusy do that.
If i knew that already i would have never trained for it..

*SNIP* - IF you dont like the changes please phrase you dislike in a constructive manner, insults will not make your point any more valid. - thanks Hutch.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:25:00 - [80]
 

One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :)

Cabadrin
Caldari
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:31:00 - [81]
 

Very, very excited about this.

Edmund Khan
Destructive Influence
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:34:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Edmund Khan on 07/11/2006 14:42:28
Please add a special role for gangs: inviter.
So FCs can concentrate on leading the battle while someone else handles invites.

Maybe even self invite from corp chat or whatever, and then you're added to a list:
Edmund Khan | Vigil | tackler
Dude#2 | Tempest | role2
MrWiener | Scorp | role3
(roles would be customizable by the leaders)

And then squadron commanders can pick what they need. Else it will be allot of confusion into which gang/squadron you wanna go in and the leaders will have a hard time inviting people from corp/alliance chat.

CCP Tuxford

Posted - 2006.11.07 14:34:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Kai Lae
One of the biggest problems is that CCP have forgotten to seed these new skills on the test server, so currently it's impossible to test it out for bugs :)

BAH I'll get right on it

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 - [84]
 

Question for TomB:

Say me and 3 mates want to go into enemy space and... mine for scrap metal (yaarrr). We gang up like we used to, go in, and let the PEW PEW start. Same as before.

But....

If we want gang bonuses, we need to designate a Fleet Commander, Wing Commander and Squadron Commander? Or, can I just designate Friend #3 as a Squadron Commander, with all of us in his squadron, leave Wing and Fleet Commander spots empty, and have the squadron commander give us gang bonuses?

This could also be applied to mining: Have an SC, no FC or WC, and have the SC give the "Covetor Army" the mining foreman bonus?

So I guess my first question is "can we create gangs with holes in upper management, but still have a squad commander boost our skills?"

Also, for those people who mine most of the time, most of their SP are in industrial skills. If a gang needs an FC to get a bonus, isn't that nerfing most mining corps?

Max TheRock
DarkStar 1
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:50:00 - [85]
 

- we need an inviter role (like the others said)

It seems to me that the FC will always be callled primary... How about if we allow the gang mod to be activated while cloaked on the CBC?

Vasiliyan
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:51:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Vasiliyan on 07/11/2006 14:55:30
Originally by: TomB

You'll be capable of having a Fleet of 256 members right away, the only problem is that you won't be capable of having the Fleet Commander active until he has sufficient skills to run an army of that size. So the only difference is that this single Commander can't be giving gang bonuses to this big group of players.


\o/

Thankyou for this vital clarification, it should slow down the complaints :)

While you're here, gangs could really do with being able to delegate the "invite", "warp gang to", and "tag" roles to multiple different people.

Selthae
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:52:00 - [87]
 

I can't say I like it. Some points yes, others absolutely not.

It's great that you want to refine fleet combat and allow for more flexibility in fleet makeup and structure, but you're radically changing gameplay, and messing with a lot of players choices in how to be part of fleet ops.

Originally by: "The eve-o item database"

command ships
Battlecruiser-class vessels, designed to aid their allies on the battlefield.

gang assist modules
Modules used to assist gang members.

armored warfare link - passive defense
Grants a bonus to the gang's armor resistances.



Originally by: "Claymore description"

while not packing the punch of their field command counterparts, the boosts they give their comrades in combat make them indispensable assets to any well-rounded fleet.



EVERYTHING there, not only suggests but states that you, as a pilot, can boost the gang. First you add leadership skills to make the Charisma attribute more usefull, that was great. And now you effectively kill the entire charisma tree again for those who are not squadleader or above.

The reason why I trained my main and an alt for Command Ships was for the boosts they give their comrades, to be able to have Modules used to assist gang members, and so they could use the ships designed to aid their allies.

Things would have been different if this path would have been communicated to the playerbase when you introduced commandships and made it continuously abundantly clear. Not when the playerbase is finally evolving to be able to use these ships effectively.

Mr Ninjaface
Minmatar
Shurekin INC
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:52:00 - [88]
 

I think you have made this overly complicated.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:55:00 - [89]
 

So lemmie get this straight...

You can have a flat gang of 50 pilots, but no gang bonuses will come into effect.

Howevever, if you convert your gang into a squad (max 10 pilots per squad + commander); then they get any bonuses provided by that squad leader (but noone else in the gang).

Tundaar
Minmatar
Eve Defence Force
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:57:00 - [90]
 

Hmmm - this it seems will change targetting so that the first primary will always be Commanders to cut off the bonuses.

Adminstratively most fleets (currently) have the equivalent of an Executive officer to handle the administrative tasks - (invites, moving from point A-B etc) while the FC concentrates on strategy and targetting. Sounds like the FC's job (person) just got a LOT harder. Not only do they have to do all the strategic stuff but train a bunch more skills for command ships/command skills while not being able to utilise their own combat skills.

It is a fact of life that people are NOT their Eve Characters. People who have no RL ability to command fleets can still (currently) assist within the Eve universe by having their character train leadership skills, get implants and train command ship skills to assist their gangs. Now this ability becomes wasted because they (as a person) may not be capable of commanding a fleet.

On the other hand, those who have the ability to command a fleet now have to use their characters to train a bunch of skills to assist their fleet. (Which effectively rules most new players, regardless of how talented, out of command positions as they will not have the ship/command skills necessary)

Would it not make more sense to simply apply command bonii within the Squad that the character is attached to wjile also allowing for a higher command bonus from above? This would allow people (in a RP sense) to assist with a bonus, would not waste current SP trained and would also allow a command bonus hierarchy at sqad/wing/fleet level.

It would also partially do away with the issue of no bonus for ship specific gangs (scouts, 'ceptors etc). As a nice aside it would also allow for "Elite" squads eg: An Inty Squad where everyone has Information leadership spec so no maatter who you kock out they still all get a bonus . . . . .could lead to very specialised Gangs.


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