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Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.01 00:23:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Alowishus

I guess my Amarr BS Level 5 and all the kill mails mean nothing then.

Amarr BS5 means nothing, anyone with time can get that. Killmails.. I'll assume you're telling the truth here, as I don't feel like looking it up.
Originally by: Alowishus

To address a couple of other things:
I don't fit an MWD on Amarr ships. It seems as though I'm either using them for sniping or engagements seem to occur at <20km for the most part. No need for an MWD.


I'll assume here you mean you don't fit MWD on Amarr BS, which would make more sense, as for most fights they don't really need one, but MWDs are becoming more and more common in fleet setups, so I think it's worth mentioning.
Originally by: Alowishus

An Armageddon with 4x Dual Modulated Pulse and one Heatsink 2 (and a 2x Nos, 2x Nuet setup) does the same DPS (give or take 5hp) as a Tempest with 6x 650mm 'Scout' and one Gyro 2. Take away two of the 650s so that you may fit 2x NOS and 2x Nuets and you have a third less DPS, not to mention not enough grid to fit it. Drop the gyro for an RCU and you have even less damage.

Ok, Tempest was a bad example here. Using T2 guns and ammo the Tempest out-DPSes the 'Geddon's guns, but the 'Geddon has more dronebay, too.
Also didn't know it didn't fit. Oops.

Still, a Megathron could fit the same setup and out-DPS the Armageddon.
Originally by: Alowishus

Also, you say that you don't fit cap mods because it's not good for PvP. Well on Amarr ship I think of it this way: I'm not fitting RCUs/PDUs so I can afford to drop a CPR in, and a CPR does quite a bit for your cap/sec on Amarr ships. Also, in my experience concerning mid slots, if I have a Cap Booster and Warp Disruptor that's pretty much all that is essential to me on an Amarr BS.

A CPR helps 90% of Amarr ships the same as it helps other ships, but I can't exactly think of setups the other races would be using RCUs in that Amarr ships wouldn't. As for the spare mids... ECM, ECCM, TDs, Damps, Webs, Speedmods, even painters. I can think of a lot I'd rather have on there than a cap recharger, and yes, I consider a recharger a waste of a slot, especially seeing as how we have so few mids in the first place.
Originally by: Alowishus

If you think Lasers on an Apoc use a lot of cap try Neutron Blasters on a Mega, my friend. Fact is, if you're having cap problems on an Apoc/Geddon, enough to where a Nuet is going to gimp you rather than give you a distinct advantage, I have a couple suggestions:

Train your skills a bit higher
Work on your setups
Think outside the box for a change


2.309 Neutron II
2.538 Megapulse II
Cap use/second.

Care to explain how the Neutron is worse?

Admittedly, the drain will seem less on an Apoc, as you picked the Amarr BS that has a cap bonus and no RoF, but it'll drain the cap far worse on an Armageddon, that doesn't have insane Apoc-Cap and gets a RoF bonus.

I never said I couldn't think of an Amarr setup with Neuts that wasn't gimped, I said I couldn't see how Amarr are any better at it than other races, as we're by far the most cap-reliant race in the game, and Nos make more sense for Amarr ships than Neuts.
Originally by: Alowishus

Lastly, 99% of my kills have been in Amarr ships, and I do have many.

Good day.



As I said, I'm not going to bother looking up your kill stats. You may very well fly Amarr exclusively. It doesn't change the fact that you said lasers use insignificant amounts of cap, and missiles use 'not much'.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.01 01:31:00 - [62]
 

I don't have time to argue every point with you but a Mega with an MWD- something I consider a requirement (and my skills), makes 14.xx cap per second peak, an Arma without an MWD makes 19.xx cap per second peak. An Arma also has a 10% bonus to capacitor use per level on Lasers.

If you think a properly setup Amarr BS is more cap limited than any other properly setup BS I dunno what to tell you, dude. That's just not right. Amarrian BS have the strongest cap, and thus are best suited for a Nuet. PERIOD.

Malcolm Adama
Posted - 2006.11.01 01:31:00 - [63]
 

Well I must say I've enjoyed this thread and I've read some interesting ideas. I'm strongly in favour of the EW strand of each race to be taken through each ship class! Eve needs this badly (except for Caldari, who already have it Rolling Eyes). Whether it's on topic or not, I don't know, but I thought I'd add my thoughts on the subject of racial EW.

I like the idea that each race has a core EW system, though there are enough to go round for two each! Observe:

Amarr: Nos, Web
- Nos supports the Amarr theme and runs with their staying power and tanking traits, as well as being a high slot to compensate for Amarr having few med slots,
- Web counters their racial enemy and, with a range bonus, helps Amarr create that medium range their guns are made for.

Caldari: ECM, Target Painter
- If limited to medium or short range (and possibly changed back to being deterministic! Wink), ECM helps Caldari maintain the long range they perfer and fits in with the high-tech Caldari ship theme,
- T.P. works well with missiles or something, unless I'm wrong? Caldari just feels right for these.

Gallente: Sensor Dampner, Warp Jammers
- Reversing the purpose of their racial foe's ECM and countering Caldari long-range ships, the dampners force victims in closer, where the Gallente traditionally wants them,
- Warp jammers helps prevent the Gallente's prey from escaping the field (note this is contrary to the Minmatar strategy of the "tactical retreat"... oh okay, I'm struggling with this one, but again it feels right to me! Confused)

Minmatar: Tracking Disrupter, ECM Burst
- T.D. is perfect against the Minmatar racial enemy and helps their ships close the range,
- ECM Burst can be useful for escaping, making it perfect for Minmatar hit and run tactics (especially with the stab nerf YARRRR!!)

Obviously, changing the races over to these (mostly logical, imho Razz) pairs of EW systems would require some delicate module nerfing/boosting/balancing, but to me they seem to support the racial concepts and have the potential to improve each race, and combat in general, drastically.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.01 01:33:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
I don't have time to argue every point with you but a Mega with an MWD- something I consider a requirement (and my skills), makes 14.xx cap per second peak, an Arma without an MWD makes 19.xx cap per second peak. An Arma also has a 10% bonus to capacitor use per level on Lasers.

If you think a properly setup Amarr BS is more cap limited than any other properly setup BS I dunno what to tell you, dude. That's just not right. Amarrian BS have the strongest cap, and thus are best suited for a Nuet. PERIOD.


That's with the cap reduction bonus. And the only Amarrian BS with a real cap advantage is the Apocalypse. Anyway, only a Blasterthron really requires a MWD, and I'm sure some would argue that a Pulse'Geddon requires a MWD to keep its range, and use its 'mid-range advantage'.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.01 02:26:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 02:28:31
Originally by: Malcolm Adama

Amarr: Nos, Web

Minmatar: Tracking Disrupter, ECM Burst



pretty much the worst combo you could have come up with. amarr the supposed tanking race gets two fields which are mainly of offensive use against their main enemies the minmatar? while the minmatar with their otherwise offensive/raid-style ships get 2 defensive fields? projectiles, missiles and drones (all to be found on typical matari ships) will still be able to work quiet nicely with a nos on them. lasers one the other hand work really crappy to not at all with bonused tracking disruptors on them (due to their extremly short falloff and not too great tracking). ecm bursts should actually be removed from the game because they barely work at all and are not really an option in empire space anyway. and to make webbers good enough to allow us to stay at medium range they would propably be too powerful against blasters, autocannons and all types of frigs. currently you can get this bonus on a recon crusiers. propably slighty more expensive and skillintensive than a t1 support ship.


how about keeping the racial ewar systems which are already working nicely for amarr and gallente, nerfing the overpowered caldari ew and maybe giving the matari something a bit more useful instead?

Malcolm Adama
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:40:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 01/11/2006 02:28:31
<snipped>
projectiles, missiles and drones (all to be found on typical matari ships) will still be able to work quiet nicely with a nos on them. lasers one the other hand work really crappy to not at all with bonused tracking disruptors on them (due to their extremly short falloff and not too great tracking). ecm bursts should actually be removed from the game because they barely work at all and are not really an option in empire space anyway. and to make webbers good enough to allow us to stay at medium range they would propably be too powerful against blasters, autocannons and all types of frigs.

how about keeping the racial ewar systems which are already working nicely for amarr and gallente, nerfing the overpowered caldari ew and maybe giving the matari something a bit more useful instead?


You're thinking of this with the modules with their current stats and in the current environment. I was thinking at the level of racial concepts: making them more logical and useful for each race, and a more integral part of Eve combat. Yes, this of course would require module and potentially ship changes, resulting in a changed combat environment, as I said...

Originally by: Malcolm Adama

Obviously, changing the races over to these (mostly logical, imho Razz) pairs of EW systems would require some delicate module nerfing/boosting/balancing


I'm not saying the assignments of concepts to races I gave are somehow perfect, just that they seem more logical than the current assignment to me, but my opinion could of course be changed if I saw good reasoning of why they should be different... the current stats and balance of ships and modules is not good reasoning against my suggested assignment of concepts Rolling Eyes

Improving a game doesn't always have to be done through little tweaks here and there; previously made decisions - large or small - may seem good at the time, but do they have to be set in stone if there is a better choice available now? Surely, sometimes the effort of going back and changing that decision is worth the payoff in terms of gameplay?

Even thinking about change can be scary, but it can be for the better, if you take the time to consider it properly... Take a step back from the current state of play and work out what you think the races are meant to be, not ship setups and how to "pwn n00bs". When you can ignore how Eve is at present, let us know what EW concepts you think each Eve race should have if you don't like those that others have suggested (as I did) Smile

It may turn out that, you personally, think the current assignement of EW concepts is already appropriate, of course Razz

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:47:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Malcolm Adama
stuff


while your Ewar ideas are good, I still prefer an approach where amarr/gallente/minmatar ditch ewar for something more exotic, or reinforcement of their racial traits.

The latter would be, in my opinion, more than welcome to amarr, where, tbh, they realy could have bit more armor and firepower.


Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:12:00 - [68]
 

Someone in the thread stated that Amarr favors the Sustained, Slow, Methodical approach to warfare. I have to agree with this. The racial concept should emphasize centuries old doctrine of wearing your opponent down, and giving the prey a hopeless feeling of ineptitude. This does favor Lasers and Heavy Armor because those are the sustainable flavor mods in the game.

But tell me why an Amarr pilot should fit lasers over projectiles if there are no damage bonuses to his ship for energy weapons? Answer that question, and the 'problem' will get more on the way to solving itself.

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:16:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Karash Amerius on 02/11/2006 20:16:29
Additionally....

Every race has a great "weapon system" that does good damage over different damage types EXCEPT Amarr. Energy Capacitor is so critical to fighting that maybe Amarr should get substantial bonuses across its Naval offerings to counterbalance this? Having twice the capacitor would balance out ECM, Missile, and Drone use for example.

Just a thought.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:48:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 02/11/2006 20:53:56
Originally by: Karash Amerius
But tell me why an Amarr pilot should fit lasers over projectiles if there are no damage bonuses to his ship for energy weapons? Answer that question, and the 'problem' will get more on the way to solving itself.


Because projectiles are balanced by ship bonus and are underpowered without them.

DPS, Apoc, 8x Mega Beam I, Multi, on structure:
255.56

DPS, Apoc, 8x 1400mm I, EMP, on structure:
171.046

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:51:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Karash Amerius
But tell me why an Amarr pilot should fit lasers over projectiles if there are no damage bonuses to his ship for energy weapons? Answer that question, and the 'problem' will get more on the way to solving itself.


The answer to that is that lasers, supposedly, already are the most damaging weapons, without applying any damage mods beforehand.
Such should be more true, but unfortunately they are also somewhat cap-hungry weapons, which would not be a problem, if amarr ships could have some more cap, since they need the cap for armor tanking and lasers.

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:23:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: AlexCA on 02/11/2006 21:32:34
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Malcolm Adama
stuff


while your Ewar ideas are good, I still prefer an approach where amarr/gallente/minmatar ditch ewar for something more exotic, or reinforcement of their racial traits.

The latter would be, in my opinion, more than welcome to amarr, where, tbh, they realy could have bit more armor and firepower.




Agreed, however that stil leaves the question of the third BS because IMO having all 3 of our BS being armor heavy laserboats (a laser tank and laser gank BS are 2 sides of the same coin) would be taking racial traits a step too far. 2/3 of our ships being guns+armour should do IMO. While more versatile races should get 3 radicaly different BS


edit: small note here.
I definitely don't want our tier 3 to be a drone/ewar/missiles/nos/babyjesus or other un-amarrian weapon boat, but I sure don't want the current proposal either. Frankly I dont even have a alternative for our tier 3 I myself like withouth altering our tier1/tier2 BS lineup along the way.

Seeing as there is a fat chance in hell of that happening I just sit here crying untill someone comes up with a tier 3 concept that would actually be considerd by ccp and isnt total crap (haven't seen one yet.)

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.02 23:03:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Siakel on 02/11/2006 23:04:21
Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 02/11/2006 20:53:56
Originally by: Karash Amerius
But tell me why an Amarr pilot should fit lasers over projectiles if there are no damage bonuses to his ship for energy weapons? Answer that question, and the 'problem' will get more on the way to solving itself.


Because projectiles are balanced by ship bonus and are underpowered without them.

DPS, Apoc, 8x Mega Beam I, Multi, on structure:
255.56

DPS, Apoc, 8x 1400mm I, EMP, on structure:
171.046


Ok, can we compare something a bit less slanted towards Amarr? Say, Autocannons vs Pulses, with T2 ammo?

You seem to deliberately choose arguments and statistics that show Amarr and lasers performing better in this one situation, and ignore all other situations.

And yes, the Lasers are undoubtedly going to come out ahead. But they also have far higher fitting requirements and cap use.

Edit: Not to mention the resist issues and armor tanker vs shield tanker imbalance.

Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.02 23:55:00 - [74]
 

Random thought: NPC Faction navies must be completely inept at fleet combat (you know, what they're for) due to the lack of EWAR in any battleships except the Caldari, and the Caldari lack of high damage direct fire snipers...

I really don't like the idea of Minmatar/Gallente/Amarr having tier 3 ewar boats though. Just doesn't seem to "taste" right...

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:53:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Siakel
You seem to deliberately choose arguments and statistics that show Amarr and lasers performing better in this one situation, and ignore all other situations.


I seem to choose examples that support my statements. Projectiles are balanced by bonus, Lasers are not. This has been so since Eve started. My statistics were chosen as an example of this. I'm sure we could spend all day and come up with some statistical reason why any x is better than any y in some fantastical situation. Why don't you start.

If you're so bent out of shape about how Amarr ships/modules are, I have some suggestions:

Fly something else
Quit Eve

P.S. Can I have your stuff?

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 01:03:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 03/11/2006 01:07:34

Originally by: Siakel
Ok, can we compare something a bit less slanted towards Amarr? Say, Autocannons vs Pulses, with T2 ammo?


Apoc with 8x 800mm 2/Hail against Raven structure
425.043 DPS

Apoc with 8x Mega Pulse 2/Conflagration against Raven structure
473.143 DPS

Now remember, the question was, "why should I use Lasers on an Apoc instead of Projectiles?" The answer is "Projectiles are blanced by bonus." The above example proves this and nothing more. Yes, there *are* other considerations like cap usage, but on the otherhand there are tons of other variables as well. Most people would likely compare projectiles on a Tempest vs. Lasers on an Amarr. And blah blah. We can go on for days. Tell you what, show me a Tempest setup (or Raven, or Mega, etc.) you think is good along with one for an Apoc/Geddon and I will do all the math on it for you and give you the results. I love holding peoples hands and spoon feeding them, it gives me an erection.

I enthusiastically await your next whine.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.03 01:51:00 - [77]
 

I'm not sure where I appear to be 'bent out of shape' over the Amarr situation..? Also, I have no intentions of quitting, and no, you can't have my stuff. Though I also fail to see how "fly something else" is a good response to someone bringing up a balance issue.

While I know it makes sense to use examples that support your statements, it seems to weaken your argument, to me at least, that you immediately use the worst possible situation for projectiles and don't even mention the fact that AC vs Pulse on an Apoc is very close, and many would consider using ACs over Pulse a viable, perhaps even the better, option for the Apoc and other tanking ships of Amarr(The gank ships[Bar Omen, perhaps] work fairly well with lasers, and their main issue is the EANM issue, IMO).

Um.. I'm not sure about setups, but as you apparently don't mind doing DPS comparisons and I don't have access to any method of easily determining DPS, I'd appreciate it if you could get some DPS numbers on these:

Apoc:
8x Dual 425mm II
MWD/Web/Scrambler/Injector
LAR II x2, EANM II x2, IFFA, 2x Gyro II

and
Tempest:
6x Dual 425mm II 2x Heavy Nos
MWD/Web/Scram/Injector/EWofchoice
LAR II x2, EANM II x2, IFFA, 1x Gyro II.
(I think this fits?)


Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:52:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 03/11/2006 14:52:23
Your Apoc:
533.551 DPS (EMP, 3 Ogres, Raven structure)
Cap/Sec Needed: 129.34
Cap/Sec Produced: 19.09

Your Tempest:
(I put a Multispec as the EW)
509.184 DPS (EMP, 3 Ogres, Raven structure)
Cap/Sec Needed: 134.14
Cap/Sec Produced: 13.52 (does not include Nos)

My Apoc (for a little added flavor):
8x Dual Heavy Pulse 2
1x Heavy Cap Booster, 1x Faint Disruptor, 1x Multispec, 1x Eutectic Cap Charger
2x LARII, 2x EANMII, 2x Heatsink II, 1x CPR
605.338 DPS (Multis, 3 Ogres, Raven structure)
Cap/Sec Needed: 97.314
Cap/Sec Produced: 38.81

This proves two things. The Apoc is a better autocannon boat than the Tempest in terms of DOT but the sacrifice is that last mid slot and some speed. The second thing it proves is that a Pulse Apoc is better than both of the above.

See you in space.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:37:00 - [79]
 

And incase anyone is going to say that Tempest is t3h sux, and I understand why you chose that setup for the sake of comparisson, I would have used a different setup.

6x Dual 650 II, 1x Arbalest Cruise, 1x Heavy Diminishing Nos
1x AB II, 1x Faint Scrambler, 1x Langour Web, 1x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster, 1x Multispec
2x LAR II, 2x EANM II, 2x Gyro II

644.152 DPS (EMP/Wraths, 3 Ogres, Raven structure)
Cap Needed: 95.535
Cap Produced: 18.03

Now, I'd say between my Apoc setup and my Tempest setup, the two are pretty balanced. People who don't spend a lot of time optimizing their setups might wonder "why isn't my Dual 425 Tempest as good as x-ship with y-setup." It's because if you're going to use 425s you can't setup in typical autocannon boat fashion and expect good results. Which brings me to a point I've made many times: most people SUCK at Eve. They're either using crap setups or putting very good setups in very bad situations. The majority of effective PvP is knowing what your ship is capable of and picking the right battles. The typical ******ed Eve player gets a setup off the forums and runs it headlong into the first battle they can find, gets destroyed and then whines about balance. It disgusts me.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:27:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Lucre on 03/11/2006 16:32:01
Originally by: AlexCA
I definitely don't want our tier 3 to be a drone/ewar/missiles/nos/babyjesus or other un-amarrian weapon boat, but I sure don't want the current proposal either.


Drone/ewar/missile/nos are un-Amarrian? What like the Pilgrim, Curse, Arbitrator, Inquisitor, Sacrilege, Malediction, Damnation, Heretic, Crucifier...

[Edit: Damnation LoL - see our ships are so bad that E-O thinks they're rude words!]

The irony, of course, is this "un-Amarrian" list comprises most of our decent ships! Neutral

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:14:00 - [81]
 

I love how people throw around raw damage stats against structure thinking they are showing how balanced Amarr is with lasers. If that were the case, Amarr should be nerfed and not boosted. The realities of PVP combat involving laser ships (amarr) is that those lasers rarely if ever see the structure of it's target before being destroyed.

But your e-peen is quite large.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:18:00 - [82]
 

Well, asking for those DPS comparisons was more to show that in a perfect world, Lasers would only be slightly better than ACs on an Apoc.

With the EANMII/DC tank they are of course inferior in just about every way, but that wasn't the point of the comparison. It was more to show that something seems to be wrong with the concept of lasers+tank, as the Amarr tank-ships often fit ACs with better results than if they'd used lasers, and get a stronger tank for it.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:19:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Karash Amerius
The realities of PVP combat involving laser ships (amarr) is that those lasers rarely if ever see the structure of it's target before being destroyed.


You're setting up your ship wrong then. Please bow your head in shame, quit Eve and then give me your stuff.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:24:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Siakel
It was more to show that something seems to be wrong with the concept of lasers+tank, as the Amarr tank-ships often fit ACs with better results than if they'd used lasers, and get a stronger tank for it.


How can you have a better tank with Autocannons when you are fitting an MWD? Remember the Tempest setup you showed had an identical tank to the Apoc but with the addition of two Nos to somewhat offset the MWD. The Apoc had to fit eight guns and two damage mods to have slightly more damage than the Tempest and the cap needed vs. cap produced was only marginally better. I'm telling you, you're setting up your Amarr ships all wrong if you can't tank and use lasers.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:27:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Siakel
It was more to show that something seems to be wrong with the concept of lasers+tank, as the Amarr tank-ships often fit ACs with better results than if they'd used lasers, and get a stronger tank for it.


How can you have a better tank with Autocannons when you are fitting an MWD? Remember the Tempest setup you showed had an identical tank to the Apoc but with the addition of two Nos to somewhat offset the MWD. The Apoc had to fit eight guns and two damage mods to have slightly more damage than the Tempest and the cap needed vs. cap produced was only marginally better. I'm telling you, you're setting up your Amarr ships all wrong if you can't tank and use lasers.


It's not can't tank and use lasers, as much as it is a dualrep tank running on an injector will be better when using ACs than when using Pulse, because the cap is going straight to your reppers, instead. And the MWD should only be cycled a time or two so you can get into webber range(AB can be used, too.)

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:30:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Siakel
It was more to show that something seems to be wrong with the concept of lasers+tank, as the Amarr tank-ships often fit ACs with better results than if they'd used lasers, and get a stronger tank for it.


How can you have a better tank with Autocannons when you are fitting an MWD? Remember the Tempest setup you showed had an identical tank to the Apoc but with the addition of two Nos to somewhat offset the MWD. The Apoc had to fit eight guns and two damage mods to have slightly more damage than the Tempest and the cap needed vs. cap produced was only marginally better. I'm telling you, you're setting up your Amarr ships all wrong if you can't tank and use lasers.


It's not can't tank and use lasers, as much as it is a dualrep tank running on an injector will be better when using ACs than when using Pulse, because the cap is going straight to your reppers, instead. And the MWD should only be cycled a time or two so you can get into webber range(AB can be used, too.)


We should get on the test server and play. I think if we do a few scenarios we can get beyond the raw numbers and see how things are really working. I'm guessing I could put together some Laser/dual rep Apocs and Armas that could beat the majority of what is thrown at them.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:39:00 - [87]
 

We could.. but I've never logged on SiSi, nor do I intend to. Also can't use large ACs to test this, unfortunately.. If you do find someone to test against though, I would love to hear the results. I'd love for someone to prove to me that a tanking Apoc using Lasers is better than a tanking Apoc with ACs.

Tranklukator
Posted - 2006.11.03 17:52:00 - [88]
 

I think the only reason Amarr and Gallente don't get racial BS is that both sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors will be enormously overpowered if the new BS could use them at fleet battle distance. Activation of any of these modules on a sniper BS renders it absolutely helpless (either -50% to locking range or optimal) So 1 BS could disable 6-8 enemies with 100% probability.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.09 01:55:00 - [89]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 09/11/2006 02:30:15
Originally by: Tranklukator
I think the only reason Amarr and Gallente don't get racial BS is that both sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors will be enormously overpowered if the new BS could use them at fleet battle distance. Activation of any of these modules on a sniper BS renders it absolutely helpless (either -50% to locking range or optimal) So 1 BS could disable 6-8 enemies with 100% probability.


I'm not disagreeing with you - but does'ent ccp want fight to get closer ?

Also ecm works up to 150km or so at the moment when used by a scorpion - which if the dice roll Win for the scorpion pilot will have the effect of taking up to 8 other pilots, of course that is unlikely to happen in game.

Having other types of e-war battleships at the same ranges as ecm bring more options to the battle field. Also mega-Celestis would get called primary in fleet battles like scorpion.

I'm not one to know if such ships would make battles better but they do sound more intresting then yet more of what we all ready have now.

Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
Posted - 2006.11.09 03:19:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Brazero on 09/11/2006 03:30:17
Racial philosofy, seems to me that there is no such thing in EVE. I chose to be Amarr for two things only, the look of their ships, and laser turrets. I didn't know that I could train for whatever ship I fancy flying at any given time. I soon realized that this was all wrong and that race has nothing to do with roleplay in this game. It didn't back then, and it sure as hell means even less today.

So why bother with this racial stuff now, if anyone want an EW boat buy a Scorp or something, Caldari of course. They are all on the market, ready to rock'n roll.

However, what Grimpak suggested in this tread was all very nice, I wish something like that would or could be done. But I have lost hope, ages ago infact.

After a few hrs on the testserver I know that we are moving from bad to worse when it comes to ship layouts and roles. The new Caldari ships are both spot on, and the Caldari line of ships will be 100% covering all aspects of warfare.

The rest is mostly crappy stuff. There will be small changes and some finetuning, but nothing major I'm afraid. Hurricane is way to slow, Harbinger needs lots of grid, Myrmidon.........yes Myrmidon. It looks like a million, but that's about it.




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