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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:51:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

What I want is to raise the issue of what is the dev's view of each racial concept, and if each race Ewar system, for example, is part of that core concepts, or is more of ECM the only Ewar that has place in a racial core concept (caldari), while the other 3 races have Ewar as a secondary, or even tertiary role.


tbh i dont think you will get that answer from a dev in here.


to provide a bit more info from the amarr perspective:
arbitrators (and its t2 versions) are a vital part of our current fleets. providing support with tracking disruptors (and currently ecm) and adding some non-laser , not jamm-able damage with drones. at least the amarrian loyalist corporations use the arbi extensivly and you'll be hard pressed to find an op without at least one. its very useful against most minmatar ships and the gallente rail/blaster boats.


for gallente the celestis seems to be quiet good as well. at least i've encountered several of them which were employing sensor dampeners instead of ecm.


Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:57:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Amarr Ewar should be something that makes you more voulnerable to them, not something that jams your guns. That's out of line with Amarrian core philosophy, which is to absorb damage through armor.


Nuets do this exactly and Ammar are really the only race that can viably use them without counterbalancing with a lot of Nos. Nuet philosophy is to gimp the enemy ship's cap while simultaniously being able to absorb the cap loss it causes to yourself. In my opinion Nuets aren't used as much as they should be by Amarr.

Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.31 02:19:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Noriath
Amarr Ewar should be something that makes you more voulnerable to them, not something that jams your guns. That's out of line with Amarrian core philosophy, which is to absorb damage through armor.


Nuets do this exactly and Ammar are really the only race that can viably use them without counterbalancing with a lot of Nos. Nuet philosophy is to gimp the enemy ship's cap while simultaniously being able to absorb the cap loss it causes to yourself. In my opinion Nuets aren't used as much as they should be by Amarr.


Care to explain how Amarr are any better using Neuts than anyone else? Identical cap recharge rates on 90% of our ships, slightly higher base capacitor, and yet... the most cap-intensive ships in the game, which means they usually have the least cap to spare for using Neuts.

So I'm not seeing why they're any better at using Nos than a less cap-intensive race. Say, Minmatar, or Caldari.

Noriath
Posted - 2006.10.31 03:28:00 - [34]
 

Cap neutralization would be way too powerful if it was working as a primary EW system.

I think there should be more weapon jamming systems instead of sensor jamming systems, like something that reduces ROF of guns and missile launchers maybe.

Tracking disruptors should also affect missile launchers I think. There is no reason why something that disrupts the tracking of guns shouldn't also disrupt the target data transmitted to the missile.

Some kind of EW system that weakens resistances would also be an interesting idea.

All of Electronic Warfare has a problem with stacking. Usually nobody will use it untill they have stacked enough of it that the effect is absoloute, which kind of takes the point out of having a system based of fluent numbers.


I don't know, but ECM is currently too powerful, and Caldari having it as a racial is just unfair, because it's pretty much like a whole weapon system they get all to themselves, since no other EW can compete in any way.

Wat0721
United Systems of the Allegiance
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.10.31 03:51:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Tracking disruptors should also affect missile launchers I think. There is no reason why something that disrupts the tracking of guns shouldn't also disrupt the target data transmitted to the missile.

Need this to make tracking disruptors comparable to ECM. /signed.

Originally by: Noriath
Some kind of EW system that weakens resistances would also be an interesting idea.

Keep this thread alive for better EWAR!

DarK
STK Scientific
Posted - 2006.10.31 04:39:00 - [36]
 

From an RP and logic point of view I never understood why Minmatar have target painters and Amarr tracking disruptors.

Minmatar have fast ships with a low sig radius and generally crap tanks thus wish to avoid getting damage. TP is a counter for this.
They generally use a wide range of weapons with a strong emphasis on projectiles which have a huge falloff. TD is less effective against their weapons system.

Amarr focus mainly on lasers with some drones on the side here and there. Their lasers have high tracking and ****ty falloff. What about Amarr needs target painting exactly?

Noriath
Posted - 2006.10.31 05:47:00 - [37]
 

Minmatar are supposed to be the race that hits hard but can't take much damage in return, so they use target painters to up their damage output...

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.31 06:38:00 - [38]
 

great topic, I'm sad to say you won't get that many here who understand what you are asking, and commenting on, core racial values and how they effect ship ballance, and more to the point, how flawed core concepts from 3 years ago make the balance game a nightmare.

I'll take a shot at what I feel are flawwed minnie concepts.

Their often is no rhyme or reason to minnie balance. It often seems that everything else is created/balanced and whats left is thrown at minnies cuz hey.. they're versatile right?Rolling Eyes

TP racial ewar for a race that gets little use of it. (if they were boosted enough perhaps it would be ok)

Speed being a racial bonus.. speed on the larger ships is largely minimal difference, and minnie can not effectively use this trait to advantage due to minimal transversal hurting our dps drastically.

No cap use of weapon systems being a bonus when you are effectively unable to use said cap. (ie in order to hit, you tracking pc's and in order to lock anything with our short lock range you need sensorboosters.) The combination leaves little room for any additional cap intensive modules. For low slots, our dps is low enough that dmg mods chew our slots up and cause the same issue for the most part.

Damage type selection is a bonus I am told. This is partially true, however ranges dictate ammo choice far more often the dmg type will due to the nature of fleet combat.

DPS - Alphastrike. Beat to death already. Needless to say it is an issue that will need to be addressed sooner rather then later, due to upcoming kali changes. Tux has as much as said 1400 needs a boost, but seems unable to provide us with an idea of where he wants to go.

Lack of consistency! This is truly my biggest pet peeve. Minnie have always had it pretty rough skill training wise. With dmg boosts coming from our ships, it is kinda a requirement to take any ship skill to 5. Not many other races have to train shields, drones, armor, maxed ships and maxed gunnery along with maxed missile skills to be effective. Not many other races will need clones with a slave and a crystal set. Stop flipflopping us back and forth from shield/armor tanking. It has lost it's funny factor like 2years ago. The mael with it's horrid shield tanking bonus is a perfect example. You pushed us into armor tanking focus over a year ago with the Nag, stop screwing with us.


ps rebuttles- please for the love of god don't turn this into a "Yeah but the megathron has to do this!!!11" comparison thread. My post was about minnie concepts, not how they relate to other races. I am well aware of the idiocy of slow blasterboats.. em dmg amaar who can't kill a semi tanked ibis with a eam, and uhh caldari being the only complete concept race in the game.


Thanks


Lord Augustus
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.10.31 07:13:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Noriath
.

Gallente Racial Ewar should be extremly effective at long range but not work at close range, so people have to come closer to the short range gallente ships.

Caldari Ewar should force people away from their fleet, by working well at close range, but being bad at long range, where Caldari can pelt you with guns and missiles.

.


Joke?

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 08:15:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Lord Augustus
Originally by: Noriath
.

Gallente Racial Ewar should be extremly effective at long range but not work at close range, so people have to come closer to the short range gallente ships.

Caldari Ewar should force people away from their fleet, by working well at close range, but being bad at long range, where Caldari can pelt you with guns and missiles.

.


Joke?

I don't think so. To me that sounds reasonable. Force the enemy into a range that you are most efficient at.
If ECM had a shorter range, this would already be the case.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.10.31 08:40:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 31/10/2006 08:49:14
Originally by: Siakel
which means they usually have the least cap to spare for using Neuts.


In my experience I always had plenty of cap with Amarr ships, on the otherhand I always fit a cap booster (which I consider a requirement on most PvP BS and an also often overlooked item for Amarr- think of their perfect empty cargo holds).

Also, all one needs to do is look at the fitting requirements of a Nuet to see that they are meant for Amarr (lots of grid, not very much CPU).

Lastly, think three dimensionally here, a bit. I always had plenty of spare slots on my Amarr ships for CPRs/Cap Rechargers. On a Raven the whole of the mids is for shield tanking, cap boosters don't work well with missiles and one damn cap recharger in that last slot isn't going to do much. And CPRs are a gimp. You're forced to use PDUs if you need cap. Granted, missiles don't use much cap but if you train up Amarr enough their weapons don't use signifigant cap either. Mega HAS to fit a cap booster yes, but its guns and MWD counter balance that, and then you have the armor tank leaving few precious lows to decide whether you want CPRs or damage mods. Minmatar with a Cap Booster and armor tank might be a consideration for effective Nuet usage, but why bother when an Arma does the same job only better and with more DOT?

I've got a lot of experience killing people in an Arma with Nuets, only guy who ever gave me trouble was an Apoc with Nuets.

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.10.31 08:46:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Nemain on 31/10/2006 08:47:34
I would have liked to have seen the 3rd battleship for each race to have filled the 3rd racial role, much in the same the frigate and Cruiser equivilents do. I can see the reason for the reluctance to produce BS sized racial EW ships though. Unlike caldari, the other races EW specialities are served just as well by the cruiser/frig versions a they would be at BS level. Caldari were pretty much forced into the EW BS area as even when originally designed as a shield tanking rail boat the scorp was mostly used as an EW ship. However, appart from slots I do think that Scorp has 1 major advantage over the Blackbird, and that is BS level durability, and that is the reason why I personally think the 3rd racial BS for min, Gal and amarr should be EW based. Personally I'd go for

Hyperion

Same slot load out (or maybe 7/7/6) and speed/mass but the second bonus would be to Sensor dampners. That way you still have the Blaster boat (being able to kill a ships targetting range as you get into blaster range has to be a good thing), but now you also have the dual purpose fleet EW ship.

Maelstrom

Same slot layout again (or 7/7/6), but a TP bonus and damage bonus. So less potential DPS damage than a tempest, but far more accurate and damaging alpha strike as well as fleet suport EW.

Abaddon

A fair bit of an overhall on this one, I am still behind the drone/TD boat design personally as amarr don't need another fleet turret ship or tank. It would be easy to make it less on the drone front than the Domi though, just in the same way the Arb is to the Vexor. Give it a 6/6/8 slot layout, give it a weapon layout the same as the scorp (4 launchers 4 turrets, or 4 turrets, 2 launchers) a bonus to drones damage, Hp etc and a TD bonus. Now to stop the Domi pilot whines give it the same drone bay size as the Geddon. As in enough to hold 1 wave of Heavies, or at most a bay that can hold 1 wave of each size drone. The Domi then has the advantage of fielding multiple waves and types while the Abaddon can still do the same drone damage, but has less drone reserves. That gives the amarr a solo pvp BS (the other 2 are already fleet BS) and a fleet EW support ship.

With a little tinkering it seems a more balanced way of doing things to me, as well as giving each ship a more clearly defined role that still stick to racial doctrines.

Tho I'm probably wrong

Fredbob
0utbreak
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:31:00 - [43]
 

I'd rather chew my right arm off than get another "minmatar special" target painting ship.. but maybe that's just me.

ECM, Damps and Tracking Disruptors can completely cripple your opponent to the point of outdamaging them with a rookie ship, Target Painting however makes a nice little red line effect woo Neutral. TP might help if you have a huginn in a fleet, but I'd hate to see a TP bonus replace something useful like velocity/rof/tracking/damage on any ship.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:56:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Lord Augustus
Originally by: Noriath
.

Gallente Racial Ewar should be extremly effective at long range but not work at close range, so people have to come closer to the short range gallente ships.

Caldari Ewar should force people away from their fleet, by working well at close range, but being bad at long range, where Caldari can pelt you with guns and missiles.

.


Joke?

I don't think so. To me that sounds reasonable. Force the enemy into a range that you are most efficient at.
If ECM had a shorter range, this would already be the case.


Of course, then we have to model the Amarr EW in order to work really well at close range, and really well at long range, but not so well in the middle.

And then comes the problem that no one can "win" an EW battle and then the final problem of the ineffctiveness of EW against members of the same race.

Really, there should be one multi-racial EW, which no race gets bonuses to, and then racial EW that play into the races feel/specialization.

Now, When I think about EW, i think mainly sensors/targeting/hitting. Engineering (vamps) and damage (resist negatives) are out for a couple reasons. 1. For a racial EW type, they are too strong. 2. Damage multipliers, if they were usefull in most situations would always be fit on ships for all ops. Now, while it would be nice for ships to have EW, it shouldnt be a requirement.

Anyway, the other thing about racial EW that I think about is slots. The Caldari are unlikly to produce a medium slotracial EW. They need all their mid slots for their tank/AB, so they would never develop a medium slot EW. Caldari would be more likly to create a low slot or high slot EW. These would either enhance missiles in some way, or be a passive system making them harder to target.

So.

1. EW deals with sensors, targeting, and electronic ship systems, not engineering or damage multiplication(possible balance issues here too).

2. EW fits the races flavour/specialization

3. EW fits on the ship in a logical location.

So looking at the races ill put out some examples.

Multi-Racial: Mid Slot item. Targeted. Range independant[out to a certian range]. Reduces max number of targets and Targeting Speed. Countered with ship sensor strength. Works as a percentile of some sorts, small jamming might only remove 0-1 max targets with a 10% increase in targeting time. A good/alligned jam might hit 2-3 targets with a 100% increase in targeting time.

Without multipule racial jammers, this shouldnt incapacitate a ship, but a single racial ought to be a significantly impede a ship.

Caldari: Turret Disruption. High Slot, targted, reduces turret tracking, does not reduce turret optimal range. Stand off ships need to be able to use transversal to their benefit, turret disruption makes this even easier.

Amarri: Electromagnetic Pulse. Missile Launcher, Shoots missiles. Missles explode in AoE putting random modules offline for a certian amount of time[no significant cap cost/cap limit to turn em back on, you just lose the benefit from them]. Counterable by defender missiles/sensor strength. Its big and brutish, its ammar.

Gallente: Communications Disruption. High Slot, targeted, reduces gang benfits[given and recieved], reduces max number of controllable drones, counterable by sensor strength[possible reducion in max number of wings/flights/squadrons controlled. maybe integrated into voice system to nix that as well]. Everyone uses drones, but Gallente are the masters. As well, the communications disruption makes leading a gang much harder.

Minmatar: Signature Scrambling. Mid Slot, Passive. Reduces effective signature radius for targeting. Minmatar fleets fitting jamming and Signature Scramblers take a long time to target, making switching between primary targets difficult and long[for target ships]. This also helps the Minmatar get the jump on other races, something typically important for "hit and run" race.

Something like that

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:57:00 - [45]
 

Target painting would be OK if the boost were a lot larger, like, +100% or something significant.

Waut
Posted - 2006.10.31 10:00:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Waut on 31/10/2006 10:00:06
Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Originally by: Grimpak
Now CCP introduces a new tier of battleships, that, in my opinion, comes to show some of the weaknesses of each race, and maybe, the weakness of CCP's view of each racial warfare concept.
Tier 3 BSes do that only for Amarr with the cap hungry Abaddon.

General opinion about Rohk is OK and it follows the Caldari rail line of ships. Hyperion suffers from not being that much different compared to the blaster Mega. Similar thing goes for Maelstrom in relation to snipe Tempest, in addition to shield boosting being useless in the (current) fleetbattles - the narrow role Maelstrom is supposed to fit in.


Agent missions perhaps? Afaik Minmatar doesn't have a descent NPC battleship. Than again, I know squat about Minmatar

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.10.31 10:08:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Fredbob
I'd rather chew my right arm off than get another "minmatar special" target painting ship.. but maybe that's just me.

ECM, Damps and Tracking Disruptors can completely cripple your opponent to the point of outdamaging them with a rookie ship, Target Painting however makes a nice little red line effect woo Neutral. TP might help if you have a huginn in a fleet, but I'd hate to see a TP bonus replace something useful like velocity/rof/tracking/damage on any ship.


You are probably right, but what other fleet support EW could it use that the others don't, and by that I mean sonthing it doesn't need to be close to use. Mind you since TP got nerfed a fair while back, I suspect to stop them being overpowered with the min bonus, they are not that attractive, so i see your point.

Blighter
Posted - 2006.10.31 10:37:00 - [48]
 

I would love to see CCP go back and rebalance all ships to follow a more Caldari design. Frigs and Cruisers are pretty balanced, just mainly BS. Caldari will have three BS that do threee entirely different things, while the other races will have ships that do something a little better than the current BS.

I would rather they follow this progression

Frigs and Cruisers progression

tier 1 Mining
TIer 2, Ewar and secondary weapon spec ship
tier 3 best combat ship

Battleship progression
tier 1, Ewar
tier 2, secondary weapon spec
tier 3, Primary weapon spec ship

You can play around with the races, giving each their own stlye and flair, layouts, ect.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.31 10:38:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 31/10/2006 10:45:22
Originally by: ProphetGuru
great topic, I'm sad to say you won't get that many here who understand what you are asking, and commenting on, core racial values and how they effect ship ballance, and more to the point, how flawed core concepts from 3 years ago make the balance game a nightmare.


I've been watching this thread going from the topic that was posted, wich was asking "does Ewar really makes part of the core concepts of amarr/minmatar/gallente, like it does part of caldari, or are they secondary or tertiary traits?" to "AMARR NEEDS EWAR BS OMFG!"


Look, I didn't say that amarr or gallente or minmatar should get an Ewar BS, but FFS PEOPLE!

READ THE ****IN' OP!
I didn't asked that!
All I asked is if the developers are too tied to flawed racial core concepts that they don't dare to give an Ewar BS, except to caldari!

No wonder that sometimes I feel the devs don't listen, since every thread that is only slightly related with "X race to do Y thing" is transformed into a crusade, ignoring whatever the OP was saying, constructive or not.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.10.31 10:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
In fact the Rokh is the only one of the Tier3 Battleships that actually pleases (almost) everyone exactly because it takes up a concept consistently present in the lesser ships and takes it to the battleship level where it has not been present at all yet. The others should do the same, instead they take a role already filled by one (or even two in case of Amarr) of the existing battleships and doing it differently (and not even neccesarily better).


Nail = head

Or so it seems to me. But apparently not to Tux and co. So are we somehow missing something, or are they?

Nemain
Amarr
Eye of the Dragon
Posted - 2006.10.31 11:08:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Nemain on 31/10/2006 11:11:15
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 31/10/2006 10:45:22
Originally by: ProphetGuru
great topic, I'm sad to say you won't get that many here who understand what you are asking, and commenting on, core racial values and how they effect ship ballance, and more to the point, how flawed core concepts from 3 years ago make the balance game a nightmare.


I've been watching this thread going from the topic that was posted, wich was asking "does Ewar really makes part of the core concepts of amarr/minmatar/gallente, like it does part of caldari, or are they secondary or tertiary traits?" to "AMARR NEEDS EWAR BS OMFG!"


Look, I didn't say that amarr or gallente or minmatar should get an Ewar BS, but FFS PEOPLE!

READ THE ****IN' OP!
I didn't asked that!
All I asked is if the developers are too tied to flawed racial core concepts that they don't dare to give an Ewar BS, except to caldari!

No wonder that sometimes I feel the devs don't listen, since every thread that is only slightly related with "X race to do Y thing" is transformed into a crusade, ignoring whatever the OP was saying, constructive or not.


I don't think they are so much too tied to racial core concepts, it's more that they are tied to to the design flaws of the past. Like I said, the scorp would be an EW bs regardless of the bonus just because of the mid slots, hence they gave in and killed it's tank and range bonus' and replaced them with bonus' that fit how the ship was actually used (kind of like when the raven got missile bonus' intead of the stupid rail gun one). I suspect if the scorp was a railbaot from day one (with maybe 6/7 turrets), then it would have possibly not been changed so not providing the basis for the EW BS debate, plus I doubt you would need a 3rd bs as it seems only caldari are getting a fleet role filler.

The problem, the way I see it anyway, lies in the fact that they have given us recons and ew cruisers which do the job to similar levels as bs, so i guess creating bs versions would just be filling a hole that doesn't really exsist as such. Like I said tho my personal view is that, what bs offer over the cruiser/recon equivilents is survivability and sustainability, and seeing that we do have the scorp there is a basis for there to be other racial EW BS. Besides if we must have a 3d bs for each race to accomodate the Caldari need for a Fleet ship, then at least like caldari, they should fill a different role entirely to what the current 2 BS do, hence my idea's, however pants they may be :)

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 12:49:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 31/10/2006 10:45:22
Originally by: ProphetGuru
great topic, I'm sad to say you won't get that many here who understand what you are asking, and commenting on, core racial values and how they effect ship ballance, and more to the point, how flawed core concepts from 3 years ago make the balance game a nightmare.


I've been watching this thread going from the topic that was posted, wich was asking "does Ewar really makes part of the core concepts of amarr/minmatar/gallente, like it does part of caldari, or are they secondary or tertiary traits?" to "AMARR NEEDS EWAR BS OMFG!"


Look, I didn't say that amarr or gallente or minmatar should get an Ewar BS, but FFS PEOPLE!

READ THE ****IN' OP!
I didn't asked that!
All I asked is if the developers are too tied to flawed racial core concepts that they don't dare to give an Ewar BS, except to caldari!

No wonder that sometimes I feel the devs don't listen, since every thread that is only slightly related with "X race to do Y thing" is transformed into a crusade, ignoring whatever the OP was saying, constructive or not.


Well that was the point of my post really, Ewar isnt a core amarrian concept, however non dedicated weird combination ships of secondary concepts are our third core concept. Basicly stealing other races ideas. Inquisitor, executioner and arbitrator represent this.

Let me ask this: If caldari didnt have the scorpion would caldari ECM still be considerd their racial concept?
They would be no different than the other races as all those have racial EW frigs and cruisers.

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 14:36:00 - [53]
 

Something else that is wrong with the racial core concepts.

Tier 3's should represent the pinnacle of racial philosophy.
Caldari is the only one where that philosophy is clearly defined and put in the right tier of ship.

For consistency's sake the gallente tier 3 should be the king of close range DPS like the thorax

The minmatar tier 3 a ROF/damage boat like the rupture

and the amarr tier 3 a inflexible but "good" dps a big tank like the maller (yes it will currently tank better with artilleries but that
is a imbalance between lasers and artilleries and should be fixed by changing those weapons, not our ships. I chose amarr because I wanted inflexible tanks.)

Problem here is that those 3 concepts interfere with already existing ships, namely the megathron, tempest and apocalypse.
Which we notice in the discontent over the current proposed tier 3's other than the rokh.

So now people request that their race's missing aspect is represented in the new battleships. Problem here is that these are half EW concepts and make no sense to figure as the most expensive BS of that race. These are btw only half EW as there cruiser concepts only have one EW related bonus eache, compared to the balckbird and scorpions double ECM bonuses, so any new EW BS will not challenge caldari EW superiority.

I like the thought of giving the other 3 races their racial "half-EW" BS as tier 1 but minmatar EW seriously sucks in its current incarnation, so that would have to be changed into either a missile bonus + TP concept (change bellicose accordingly) or rework minmatar EW completely.

Minmatar:

tertiary concept - tier 1 - Target painting + missile ROF or reworked EW + guns - Typhoon hull
secondary concept - tier 2 - Speed + ROF - Tempest hull
Primary concept - tier 3 - Damage + ROF - Maelstrom hull

Gallente:

tertiary concept - tier 1 - sensor dampening + damage - Hyperion hull?
secondary concept - tier 2 - drones + damage - Dominix hull
primary concept - tier 3 - all out damage - Megathron hull

Caldari:

tertiary concept - tier 1 - all out ECM - Scorpion hull
secondary concept - tier 2 - all out missiles - raven hull
primary concept - tier 3 - railgun range + resists - rokh hull

Amarr:

tertiary concept - tier 1 - stuff stolen from other races (dronebonus + unbonused missile hardpoints?) + tracking disruptors - Apocalypse hull (because abaddon has 8 modeled turret hardpoints)
secondary concept - tier 2 - gank + laser cap usage - Armageddon hull
primary concept - tier 3 - resists + laser cap usage - Abaddon hull

These are the core concepts of each race going by frigate/cruiser roles aswell as backstory as far as I can tell and conjure.


Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 15:40:00 - [54]
 

I have put this in other threads but i will state it again.

They might need to rework wich races get what EWAR bonuses

Caldari
TP
Gallente
ECM
Matari
Damps
Amarr - Disrupters, and move it to a low slot.


Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.31 15:59:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 16:01:21
Originally by: AlexCA
Something else that is wrong with the racial core concepts.
...
Tier 3's should represent the pinnacle of racial philosophy.
...
and the amarr tier 3 a inflexible but "good" dps a big tank like the maller (yes it will currently tank better with artilleries but that
is a imbalance between lasers and artilleries and should be fixed by changing those weapons, not our ships. I chose amarr because I wanted inflexible tanks.)



sounds like a good plan except for the tier3 bs bonuses you want.
i agree that it should be an 8 turret + tanking bs. however tanking does not work well with lasers and unless lasers get turned into a capless weapon like projectiles (not likely and not needed) a ship with -10% laser cap use and +5% resists will always tank better with projectiles on.

yes tanking is one of our main racial concepts if not the main amarrian concept. our tanking ships however are badly flawed.

they leave one of their bonuses unused if they want to fit a really good tank. and even if they do fit lasers they will never do "good" dps compared to the other ships in their class. the maller is the perfect example of what you want as a top tier amarrian tanker. it can fit a decent tank with lasers and do crappy damage or fit a godly tank with projectiles and still do crappy damage. on top of that it's very vulnerable to ew (all forms of it) and faster/smaller ships because it has no dronebay or launcher hardpoints at all.

the problem lies with that 10% laser cap use bonus. it is there so only amarrian ships will use lasers ad supposedly it makes up for the high cap use and built-in damage bonus of lasers. making it a hidden damage bonus. a tanker doesnt really need a damage bonus but it cant use lasers at all without the cap reduction.

to really make tanking with lasers a good idea a lot of changes to lasers, the skills affecting cap usage and our ships default bonus are required.


currently our t1 ships can be stuck (with mild force) into 3 main groups which imo are the 3 concepts grimpak is looking for.

tankers:
punisher
maller
prophecy
apoc
abaddon

laser-gank:
coercer
omen
harbinger
geddon
abaddon

support:
crucifier, inquisitor, tormentor, executioner
arbitrator, auguror


when it comes to general pvp usefulness i would pick those in each class:
frig: tanked punisher + projectiles
destroyer: coercer :)
cruiser: arbi because the maller is too vulnerable and the omen doesnt have enough gankpower for its weak tank
bc: harbinger..can be setup for gank or balanced gank/tank
bs: geddon for the price advantage and closerange / abaddon for longrange

the only tanker i would chose here is the punisher and thats a special case in itself because its the only t1 frig that can really be tanked nicely.



Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.31 16:15:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar


So going your argument, the only thing that makes racial EW a core concept for a race is having a Battleship doing the thing? If you consequently pursue that logic, this would actually make the Rokh go against the core concepts of Caldari since there was no rail Battleship before, hence Rails are just secondary concepts to missiles and ECM and RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE


A wee bit of history... the scorpion used to be a railboat. The raven used to be a rail boat. There used to be NO SUCH THING as a cruise missile launcher. Back in the day the Raven had the pg to fit guns and rails WERE their primary weapon.

Welcome to EVE...

Siakel
Posted - 2006.10.31 16:27:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 31/10/2006 08:49:14
Originally by: Siakel
which means they usually have the least cap to spare for using Neuts.


In my experience I always had plenty of cap with Amarr ships, on the otherhand I always fit a cap booster (which I consider a requirement on most PvP BS and an also often overlooked item for Amarr- think of their perfect empty cargo holds).

Also, all one needs to do is look at the fitting requirements of a Nuet to see that they are meant for Amarr (lots of grid, not very much CPU).

Lastly, think three dimensionally here, a bit. I always had plenty of spare slots on my Amarr ships for CPRs/Cap Rechargers. On a Raven the whole of the mids is for shield tanking, cap boosters don't work well with missiles and one damn cap recharger in that last slot isn't going to do much. And CPRs are a gimp. You're forced to use PDUs if you need cap. Granted, missiles don't use much cap but if you train up Amarr enough their weapons don't use signifigant cap either. Mega HAS to fit a cap booster yes, but its guns and MWD counter balance that, and then you have the armor tank leaving few precious lows to decide whether you want CPRs or damage mods. Minmatar with a Cap Booster and armor tank might be a consideration for effective Nuet usage, but why bother when an Arma does the same job only better and with more DOT?

I've got a lot of experience killing people in an Arma with Nuets, only guy who ever gave me trouble was an Apoc with Nuets.


First, the cap booster. The only BS I can think of that doesn't fit a cap booster would be the Scorpion, or perhaps the three-midslot Armageddon, and Amarr still uses the cap charges faster than anyone else, so they, again, still have the least cap to spare for Neuts.

The fitting requirements.. meh, I s'pose you've got a point there, though with the high grid use of lasers most of my fittings barely have enough spare grid for a Nos, much less a Neut.

If you've got lots of spare slots for Rechargers or Relay son a PvP setup you're doing something wrong.. Confused. Firstly, midslots are far too valuable to waste on a cap recharger, and you usually need all your lows for tank and/or damage mods, aside from the Inties, the only time I'd ever fit a CPR is if I don't have enough fitting to do anything else with the slot, and am satisfied with how the ship currently looks(This happens.. oh, once in a blue moon).

Missiles don't use much cap? They use none, and Lasers do use significant cap, even with completely maxed skills in every area. The fact that you're saying Lasers don't use significant cap makes me doubt that you've ever actually flown the ships. I don't see how you can say a Megathron's guns+MWD counter its cap booster, but an Amarr BS with guns+MWD is somehow unaffected by the same problem? And the Apocalypse has the exact same lowslots as the Megathron, with the 'Geddon having one more. Hardly enough spare slots to slap on CPRs, unless you're saying Amarr ships don't really need damage mods or tank?

I'm not sure how the Armageddon does a better cap-injected Neut setup than a Tempest, seeing as how it only has three midslots and not enough extra DPS in a Neut setup to counter all the extra cap use.

You may very well have experience with a Neut'Geddon, but I'm not going to count on you having any experience with Amarr ships at all, as the fact that you've said Lasers use an insignificant amount of cap throws all your arguments into doubt, IMO.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.31 16:36:00 - [58]
 

The different races seem to have the following specialities:

Caldari: missiles, hybrids, ECM
Gallente: hybrids, drones, dampening
Minmatar: projectiles, painting
Amarr: lasers, tracking disruptors

Form this it's clear that both the Minnies and God's chosen race needs another speciality.

The Minnies could make great use from more missile boats, as missiles are complemeted by painters.

The Amarrians are renowned for their capacitor technology. Not only does the Apoc get a cap bonus, but the Guardian and Archon get cap transfer bonuses. Bearing this in mind, I suggest that any future T1 Amarrian ships get bonuses to cap neutralisers and vampires along the lines of the Curse and Pilgrim.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2006.10.31 22:47:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 31/10/2006 22:52:25
Edited by: Alowishus on 31/10/2006 22:47:37
Originally by: Siakel
You may very well have experience with a Neut'Geddon, but I'm not going to count on you having any experience with Amarr ships at all, as the fact that you've said Lasers use an insignificant amount of cap throws all your arguments into doubt, IMO.


I guess my Amarr BS Level 5 and all the kill mails mean nothing then.

To address a couple of other things:
I don't fit an MWD on Amarr ships. It seems as though I'm either using them for sniping or engagements seem to occur at <20km for the most part. No need for an MWD.

An Armageddon with 4x Dual Modulated Pulse and one Heatsink 2 (and a 2x Nos, 2x Nuet setup) does the same DPS (give or take 5hp) as a Tempest with 6x 650mm 'Scout' and one Gyro 2. Take away two of the 650s so that you may fit 2x NOS and 2x Nuets and you have a third less DPS, not to mention not enough grid to fit it. Drop the gyro for an RCU and you have even less damage.

Also, you say that you don't fit cap mods because it's not good for PvP. Well on Amarr ship I think of it this way: I'm not fitting RCUs/PDUs so I can afford to drop a CPR in, and a CPR does quite a bit for your cap/sec on Amarr ships. Also, in my experience concerning mid slots, if I have a Cap Booster and Warp Disruptor that's pretty much all that is essential to me on an Amarr BS.

If you think Lasers on an Apoc use a lot of cap try Neutron Blasters on a Mega, my friend. Fact is, if you're having cap problems on an Apoc/Geddon, enough to where a Nuet is going to gimp you rather than give you a distinct advantage, I have a couple suggestions:

Train your skills a bit higher
Work on your setups
Think outside the box for a change

Lastly, 99% of my kills have been in Amarr ships, and I do have many.

Good day.


Agillious
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.10.31 23:07:00 - [60]
 

There are a whole lot of suggestions on hwo things should be fixed, one way or the other... X race needs Y bonus changed/modified/added/removed.

I like Grim's question better then the solutions I've read. I am very curious to see how the Dev department at CCP sees each of the races, and their ships. When they design the ships, their bonuses, their attributes, and their slot layouts... what is the design they had in mind for each. Are there design philosphies that drive each ship?

A little word association, then:
Amarr = Lasers, Armor
Minnies = Speed, Damage
Gallente = Drones, Close Range
Caldari = Missles, Shields

I am interested to see what game concepts people attribute to each race. I am also curious as to the answer to Grim's quesiton as well as wondering what sort of module layouts do Developers have in mind when they create each ship?


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