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Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:37:00 - [1]
 

This is a post more directed to tux/the developers, since it is more a question, than a statement.

Some of you that are watching the tier3 battleships thread in the kali development thread know my opinion about Ewar.

It is my opinion that every race has a core concept of it's own and that only Caldari has their racial form of Ewar, ECM, as one of their main core features, while the other 3 races have their Ewar as a more secondary concept than, let's say drones, or heavy armor.

Now it's true that nowadays many of these concepts are not as pronounced as they were, or they are not as restricted to each race as might imagine they are.

Now CCP introduces a new tier of battleships, that, in my opinion, comes to show some of the weaknesses of each race, and maybe, the weakness of CCP's view of each racial warfare concept.

So the issue of tier3 battleships, in my view is not the question of "What we want from the tier3 battleships?", but rather "What is Tuxford/devs/CCP views about each races' core concepts?".

If someone could answer such question, I believe that many issues that plague today's eve, specially the role of the up-and-coming tier3 battleships, could be solved.


So Tux/devs, what is your view?

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:43:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
If someone could answer such question, I believe that many issues that plague today's eve, specially the role of the up-and-coming tier3 battleships, could be solved.


This is certainly something that needs commenting! Alot of arguments could be solved by a clear statement but unfortunately I'm afraid alot new ones might arise as well.

This will be difficult for Amarr. Secondary weapon system or not? EW or not? Khanid MKII or not?

Let's hope for a dev comment (and a new emperor).

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:16:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Forsch
This will be difficult for Amarr. Secondary weapon system or not? EW or not? Khanid MKII or not?


exactly my point. And altho it affects more Amarr, the other 3 races also could have some clearing up.

So, which one is it CCP?

Master OlavPancrazio
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:24:00 - [4]
 

I mean really, do you think that CPP is going to reply to this? Why do you even waste your time asking the question.

Nir
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:27:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Nir on 06/11/2006 20:18:59

Wilfan Ret'nub
Singularity.
The SUdden Death Squad
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:29:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Now CCP introduces a new tier of battleships, that, in my opinion, comes to show some of the weaknesses of each race, and maybe, the weakness of CCP's view of each racial warfare concept.
Tier 3 BSes do that only for Amarr with the cap hungry Abaddon.

General opinion about Rohk is OK and it follows the Caldari rail line of ships. Hyperion suffers from not being that much different compared to the blaster Mega. Similar thing goes for Maelstrom in relation to snipe Tempest, in addition to shield boosting being useless in the (current) fleetbattles - the narrow role Maelstrom is supposed to fit in.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:31:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2006 15:35:54
Originally by: Master OlavPancrazio
I mean really, do you think that CPP is going to reply to this? Why do you even waste your time asking the question.



better talk than being quiet.

Originally by: Wilfan Ret'nub
Originally by: Grimpak
Now CCP introduces a new tier of battleships, that, in my opinion, comes to show some of the weaknesses of each race, and maybe, the weakness of CCP's view of each racial warfare concept.
Tier 3 BSes do that only for Amarr with the cap hungry Abaddon.

General opinion about Rohk is OK and it follows the Caldari rail line of ships. Hyperion suffers from not being that much different compared to the blaster Mega. Similar thing goes for Maelstrom in relation to snipe Tempest, in addition to shield boosting being useless in the (current) fleetbattles - the narrow role Maelstrom is supposed to fit in.


true there, but if you think that CCP stated some time ago that wanted to make tier3's "diferent" and more suited to a "fleet" role (xcept the hyperion, altho the issue still applies) one asks why in all cases, bar the Rohk, we are seeing a repetition of megathron, apoc or geddon, whatever you pic, and tempest?

Originally by: Nir
Edited by: Nir on 30/10/2006 15:28:04
I'll keep this short and I hope Tuxford replies to your original question. Smile You've struck a nerve here about Caldari that has been bothering me ever since the Kali plans were unfolded. For me its two fold:

- In Kali ECM is once again delegated to Blackbirds, Rooks and Scorpions. Why exactly do Caldari get to have a monopoly on their racial E-war, when other races do not?

- Tier 3 Battleships. Instead of adding a third tier ship to all 4 races, Tuxford should have seen the Scorpion as the pivotal point in achieving a balanced lineup. It is the poster boy for balance and is what makes the current Caldari Battleship fleet so deadly. You have a support ship as tier 1, medium range ship as tier 2, long range fleet ship as tier 3.

Really, the Scorpion is what makes the Rokh look so good, not the other way around. Cool

Now, why not have it this way for all races? Amarr for example would look something like this:

Tier 1: Fleet Support BS with racial Ewar bonuses.
Tier 2: Armageddon - Medium range BS. Pulses + Drones.
Tier 3: Apocalypse - Long range fleet BS. Change its bonuses to suit Tachyon use better.

My 2 cents.



exactly one of my points, however one thing that I am asking aswell is if Ewar is belongs to the core concept of amarr, or is it just secondary?

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:01:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 30/10/2006 16:02:07
Originally by: Grimpak
It is my opinion that every race has a core concept of it's own and that only Caldari has their racial form of Ewar, ECM, as one of their main core features, while the other 3 races have their Ewar as a more secondary concept than, let's say drones, or heavy armor.


I disagree with that assessment.
Lets have a look at the races' EW ships:

Caldari has:
ECM Frig: Griffin
ECM Cruiser: Blackbird
ECM Elite Cruisers: Falcon & Rook
ECM Battleship: Scorpion

Gallente has:
SD Frig: Maulus
SD Cruiser: Celestis
SD Elite Cruisers: Lachesis & Arazu

Minmatar has:
TP Frig: Vigil
TP Cruiser: Bellicose
TP Elite Cruisers: Huginn & Rapier

Amarr has:
TD Frig: Crucifier
TD Cruiser: Arbitrator
TD Elite Cruisers: Curse & Pilgrim

So going your argument, the only thing that makes racial EW a core concept for a race is having a Battleship doing the thing? If you consequently pursue that logic, this would actually make the Rokh go against the core concepts of Caldari since there was no rail Battleship before, hence Rails are just secondary concepts to missiles and ECM and Caldari would be better served with, say, another missile boat. Which is imoh fundamentally wrong. Imagine we had had no Scorp but a Rokh instead and the currently proposed Caldari tier3 battleship was another missile boat, because EW is not a core racial concept and is already done well enough by the recons. Wouldn't you fight for an EW scorp as well (If you were a real Caldari that is, not one of those 'easy mode' missile-munchkins)? :D
And the real reason that ECM is probaly indeed seen as core concept by many, while the other forms of EW are not, despite all having more or less the same level of presence in racial ship design, is the omgwtfbbq overpoweredness of ECM. Disregarding that, EW has pretty much the same standing with every Race, and EW tier3s for non-caldari would be a nice equalizer.

In fact the Rokh is the only one of the Tier3 Battleships that actually pleases (almost) everyone exactly because it takes up a concept consistently present in the lesser ships and takes it to the battleship level where it has not been present at all yet. The others should do the same, instead they take a role already filled by one (or even two in case of Amarr) of the existing battleships and doing it differently (and not even neccesarily better). And that is bound to not please anyone except perhaps a bunch of too-rich fleet junkies.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:08:00 - [9]
 

see the last devchat where tuxford had this to say when asked about the state of amarrian ships:

"tuxford: The third is that Amarr is missing something extra special, some flavor."

while i agree with this statement i'm not all that happy with how he tries to improve the situation: give amarr more of the same without any noticeable change at all.



some time ago amarr were supposed to be the turret and tank masters.

for the turret part to really be working we would need to have the most or best turrets around though. this is not the case now and with kali 1 it will only get worse when each race has an 8 turrets+bonus bs and the minmatar tier 2 bc is pretty much the same as the amarrian but without the drawbacks associated with lasers. amarr dont have a clear turret advantage in any class atm. instead we have a restriction to turrets only on many ships. also if you look at our turrets themself lasers have no real advantage over hybrids or projectile weapons when it comes to pvp. there are some differences when it comes to how they are used at short range but no real advantage for lasers. instead lasers suffer from some disadvantages like bad damgetypes, heavy cap use, heavy fitting requirements and being the turret type that is the most affecte by tracking disruptors.

for tanking its pretty much the same. we do have some ships with tanking bonuses but its nothing special for amarr. every race has them and in many cases they can tank better than the amarrian version when we're using lasers because of the heavy cap dependency of amarrian ships. due to this you see our tanking ships flying around with projectile weapons so they can finally enjoy a good tank. this is also a problem that will be increased even more with kali 1 and the general hitpoint boost. amarr (and those gallente blasterboats) will have the same cap to fuel their cap hungry weapons and their tanks for a far longer time now while zero-cap weapons like missiles, projectiles and drones will gain yet another advantage.


if amarr is really supposed to specialize in laser turrets and heavy tanks a lot of changes need to be made to both our ships and our guns. imho this is especially true for our tankers as tanking just doesnt work as good with lasers as it does with capless weapons.





Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:31:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
stuff



you do have a point, but what I am trying to do is asking if each races' Ewar is infact part of their core concept or not?

Or is it that only caldari have Ewar as part of their core concept, while the others relegate their Ewar to a more secondary role?

That is the question I am asking to Tuxford, or any dev that is in charge.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
if amarr is really supposed to specialize in laser turrets and heavy tanks a lot of changes need to be made to both our ships and our guns. imho this is especially true for our tankers as tanking just doesnt work as good with lasers as it does with capless weapons.


exactly.
Is the core concept of amarr only bigass ships with lots of armor and laser turrets, or is it something else besides that?
And if that is the way amarr are, why don't they give it more in the way of laser turrets and armor to the amarr?

So what is it tuxford?

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:41:00 - [11]
 

I have to agree with Grim here.

The reason that it seems caldari are so happy, isnt just because the rokh is a great ship (it is) but it also doesnt invalidate any of the other BS.

That cannot be said about the other races, and i think that is part of the problem.

People dont just want 1 uber BS per ship. (which goes to show you something about the EVE player base, they care about the overall game). They want to use all of their race BS and have a role to use them in.

I think this is what is missing with Kali. I think we are seeing it more with Amarr, because there doesnt seem to be a point to their tier 3.

Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:21:00 - [12]
 

Well, the Rokh I think is fine, tho it could get 7 turrets instead. 8 turrets is what I call 'an amarrian thing'.

The other tier3 battleships tho, they are as you said just an upgrade of another previous tier. I would say that the amarr, minmatar and gallente one should be dedicated to their 'secondary core' or 'tertiary core'.

Hyperion should be made into a sensor dampening boat, the minmatar one to target painting and the amarr one to target disrupting. Now that is what I believe, but everyone will disagree simply because they wont be the new uber front machine as they currently are now (some of them at least).

Gallente already has their primary and secondary - blasters/damage and drones. But they are lacking their tertiary.

Minmatar (I guess) already have alpha strike boat and a speed boat, but are missing the target painting boat.

Amarr have high damage (well not that high due to EANM, but they are high without), armor tank (?) and target disruption (?), they got it all except the target disruption boat.

Caldari have all three of their cores now (I at least think so), missiles, railguns and ecm. Tho you would almost believe they have 4 cores, if you include mean shield tanks as one of their cores.

Now if all this is somehow balanced is another matter.

Soo, some cores and roles should be defined for each race, and then balance the ships to perform them.

Did it make sense? Razz

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:31:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 17:33:23
Originally by: Grimpak
you do have a point, but what I am trying to do is asking if each races' Ewar is infact part of their core concept or not?

Or is it that only caldari have Ewar as part of their core concept, while the others relegate their Ewar to a more secondary role?

That is the question I am asking to Tuxford, or any dev that is in charge.


The problem - as I see it - is that that for caldari all 3 ship lines or core concepts (ECM, missiles, rails) now go from frigates over cruisers to BSs. For all other races we have only 2 ship lines continuously going to the BS lvl.

The question if for the other races their EW is part of their core concept or not is pretty meaningless here IMO, because even if the answer is "no" it still leaves caldari with 3 continuous specialized ship lines and the other races with only 2. Meaning caldari have an advantage in pure versability.

Not saying that every race should have the same options and be equally strong in everything, but the freedom of coice, the diversity should be the same for all races.

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:47:00 - [14]
 

Our third racial concept should be combining all kinds un-amarrian crap into weird ships like the arbitrator

The arbitrator is not a EW boat. Its a drone carrying, tracking disrupting ship with a missile hardpoint.

The abaddon needs to be a turret boat though as it has those awesome 8 hardpoints modeled.

IMO best thing to do would be for the amarr navy to enlist the abaddon as the prime of amarrian philosophy.

10% laser cap reduction.
5% armour resists.

8 high slots all turrets
3/4 med slots
8 low slots
No drone bay, no missile hardpoints.
most powergrid of any BS
best capacitor recharge rate of any BS

truly inflexible amarrian arrogance but can keep fighting until the reclaiming itself. because thats the main attribute of amarr IMO: sustainability largest, oldest, most conservative empire that just slowly keeps on going no matter what.

now for the apocalypse: the devs themselves have said its crap IIRC and I imagine the amarr empire would conclude the same (after a long while, things move slowly here) hence commisiong the abaddon as the new pinnacle of amarrian fleet might. Now after executing its designers behind the cathedral most should be decommisioned and the ones in somewhat good shape be changed in to a ship to do the work that is not worthy enough for the abaddon and armageddon. Drones, EW, missiles. Unholy but necesary aspects of warfare.

Remove the aft 4 turret (8 visual) hardpoints and add a 200m^3 dronebay. that gives it 1 wing of each drone size, it is afterall a jack of all trades ship and not a dedicated drone carrier like the dominix nor should it be.

give it 6 high slots with the remaining 4 turret hardpoints plus 2 new missile hardpoints, for 4 total missile hardpoints.

6 meds and 6 lows to bring it in line with the arbitrator and not make it as powerful a EW ship as the 8 med slot scorp

Bonuses: 10% drone bonus per level, 20% tracking disruptor range per level

obviously the new apoc would get reduced armour, shields, capacitor and powergrid to make up for added functionality

possibly bump the apoc down a tier and put the geddon through a mid life upgrade bringing it to tier 2 with a slight overall increase in stats such as powegrid cpu armour and cap.

Mallick
Northern Intelligence
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:55:00 - [15]
 

Uhm, no? Why make the Apocalypse a drone boat? The Apocalypse should be what it is, the amarr proudest ship - But it needs some changes to fulfill that role.

The Abaddon is a fat ugly ass amarrian ship, why cant that one be a semi-drone boat?

7 high slots
6 med slots
6 lowslots

5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per
skill level and 10% to lasers capacitor usage.

7 turret and 2 missile hardpoints, 150m3 and give it good capacitor and 'better' agility then it would normally have. It might suck, but its better then what you thought of.

The Apocalypse should not be changed to carry out the 'tertiary role' of amarrian battleships, the Abaddon should.

Rania Serlia
Endless Destruction
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:56:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mallick
...

Hyperion should be made into a sensor dampening boat, the minmatar one to target painting and the amarr one to target disrupting. Now that is what I believe, but everyone will disagree simply because they wont be the new uber front machine as they currently are now (some of them at least).

...
How many minmatar pilots would fly a turret based battleship with one of the bonuses being a target painter bonus instead of say, a tanking bonus or ROF?

And how many Bellicoses do you actually see in the field?

John117MGS
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:58:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: John117MGS on 30/10/2006 17:58:50
target painting ship could work in combination with missile slots, but it is probably better just to give minmatar some proper racial EW.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Rania Serlia
Originally by: Mallick
...

Hyperion should be made into a sensor dampening boat, the minmatar one to target painting and the amarr one to target disrupting. Now that is what I believe, but everyone will disagree simply because they wont be the new uber front machine as they currently are now (some of them at least).

...
How many minmatar pilots would fly a turret based battleship with one of the bonuses being a target painter bonus instead of say, a tanking bonus or ROF?

And how many Bellicoses do you actually see in the field?

PLS...PLS no TP bonus on turret ship.

IF a target painting bonus put it on the Phoon. Give phoon an ROF bonus to all weapon sytems (missles, hybrids, lasers and projectiles)...that would be okay.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:40:00 - [19]
 

people, this is not to discuss ships, but to discuss what is the current racial concepts.

there are 1001 posts saying of what people want to have in the abbadon and sorts. I don't want this thread to become that.

What I want is to raise the issue of what is the dev's view of each racial concept, and if each race Ewar system, for example, is part of that core concepts, or is more of ECM the only Ewar that has place in a racial core concept (caldari), while the other 3 races have Ewar as a secondary, or even tertiary role.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:42:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: AlexCA

IMO best thing to do would be for the amarr navy to enlist the abaddon as the prime of amarrian philosophy.

10% laser cap reduction.
5% armour resists.

8 high slots all turrets
3/4 med slots
8 low slots
No drone bay, no missile hardpoints.
most powergrid of any BS
best capacitor recharge rate of any BS



this would face the same problem all our tankers face: it will tank better when using projectile weapons instead of lasers. if you try to go for max damage with this ship without a laser-dmg/rof bonus you will simply not get any impressive results. also without a dronebay and launcher hardpoints the grid and capacitor advantage would have to be MASSIVE in order to make this ship work in any good way compared to the others. such massive cap/grid advantages on the other hand would again make for a very good tank+projectile combination while still being only ok for lasers. 8x1400mm and a good tank on top of it could be done. also you wont be able to fly this ship without an escort if you intend to fit 8x large guns as you dont have the dronebay to deal with frigs/fast cruisers.

in short: one of the worst designs possible.

assuming we got the apoc changed so we dont end up with 3 laserboats i would suggest sth closer to the current abaddon but with 6 launcher hardpoints added so you can use non-matari weapons for tanking. see here for details.


Originally by: AlexCA

now for the apocalypse ...



personally i would give it 250m3 dronespace and a slightly different slot/hardpoint layout but overall it sounds good.


Godar Marak
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:52:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Godar Marak on 30/10/2006 18:53:21
Rework the Amarr battleships and lasers. Rework their range so that


Geddon = pulse boat - close combat
Apoc = Megabeam boat - medium range
Abaddon = Tachyon boat - long range

Today we only have medium, medium and long range.
It would be nie to have the abilaty to stay and duke it out up close and personal with autopest or blastherthron.

I mean, is there any clever reason (lore wize or other) for a race to not being able to invent guns that can hit a huge object at an arms lenght?


Might not be the best suggestion, but atleast its a start.



edit : And regarding the Apoc, its supposed to be a monster cap tanking ship so it should stay that way. I'd rather see the abaddon as a high damage ship since Amarrians havent been able to dish out proper damage since the stacking nerf.


Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:04:00 - [22]
 

I'm game for everything except giving Amarr missiles to use.. I evaded caldari and minmatar cause of missiles and would like the Amarr turret concept (lasers suck at anything except ceptor dog-fighting) fixed first.

Yes Amarr miss the special flavour, but it wont do any good to give them missiles just to compensate for the crap lasers.

Good ideas in this thread, but forget about missiles + lasers, dont typhoonize amarr ships pls, everyone knows split weapon systems are crap due to the nature of dmg mods..

Berrik Radhok
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:07:00 - [23]
 

The issue with lasers is, we're missing a few classes of laser.

Quad medium beams, and quad heavy beams, as well as any form of quad pulse. Add those and the close range game for Amarr will improve quite a bit.

Kaell Meynn
Divergence
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:00:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Kaell Meynn on 30/10/2006 20:00:40


Intaki start with ECM.

ECM used to be high slot module, Caldari only took it over when they changed EW to midslots. The midslots were meant for shield tanking not uber EW.

Drones and heavy armor aren't exactly EW (arent exeactly as in.... not at all).

The question is a fine one though, and I guess we'll see the answer when the t3's are released.

Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:24:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Berrik Radhok
The issue with lasers is, we're missing a few classes of laser.

Quad medium beams, and quad heavy beams, as well as any form of quad pulse. Add those and the close range game for Amarr will improve quite a bit.


Tachyon pulse!

Noriath
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:37:00 - [26]
 

The current Ewar system is the real problem with all of it. Caldari get ECM, which is insanely overpowered as it is, and are the only race that gets a dedicated Ewar battleship. All other races have to rely on Recons or dubious tech 1 cruisers that were given some random Ewar bonuses because because before that they didn't have any role to fill for their EW, and even when they do that their Ewar is much less effective then what a scorpion can throw at you at tech 1.

Ewar is such a core concept in Eve that its just unfair that one race practically gets it all to themselves.

If you look at it in terms of Ewar:

ECM: Shuts down all ability to lock, chance based, can hit at extreme range, has no penulty against targets that are very close. Racial versions availible for added effectiveness against known target. Countered only by mod with no other function.
Dampers: Reduces locking range/speed, range is limited, doesn't work on targets that are very close. Countered by the most common active medslot mod in Eve.
Target Painters: Increase signature Radius, doesn't affect ship at all unless fired upon. Most powerful in combination with missiles, can't be countered.
Tracking Disruptors: Jams only guns, makes them uneffective at short range against moving targets. Countered by: Missiles, drones.


I think there really has to be some work done on those core Ewar concepts so they can be balanced. There is still no reason for any of them other then Target Painters to exist as long as ECM is around, why reduce target range or mess up someones weapon if you can also just make them unable to target at all.

I think Ewar has to correspond with racial combat doctrine and help it along, currently that's really not happening.

Gallente Racial Ewar should be extremly effective at long range but not work at close range, so people have to come closer to the short range gallente ships.

Caldari Ewar should force people away from their fleet, by working well at close range, but being bad at long range, where Caldari can pelt you with guns and missiles.

Minmatar Ewar is OK as it is, it definatly has its uses, and I think lots of people disregard it too easily as a force multiplier maybe a bit more range...

Amarr Ewar should be something that makes you more voulnerable to them, not something that jams your guns. That's out of line with Amarrian core philosophy, which is to absorb damage through armor.


And what bothers me the most currently is that the most important Ewar of all, warp disruption is still an extremly short ranged system, which means that no matter how much tweaking they do with ship ranges, the survivability of anything that doesn't come close enough to an enemy to be warpscrambled will still be off the charts compared to something that does outside of insta-pop combat.

XGS Crimson
Posted - 2006.10.30 22:52:00 - [27]
 

im truley amazed at how right you all are, as the poster above said the main problem in eve is ECM... an anti targeting measure that makes the tracking disruptor and sensor dampner pointless.
putting a chance based weapon in a game MADE for calculations just screws the entire system.. have CCP never seen Futurama where bender has a nightmare about the 2 in the binary(1-0) ?

with caldari having a third weapon (yes ECM is a weapon no matter what you say) and only caldari having the counter to it (FOFs) it makes all other race ships redundant as to combat this.

CCP is heading towards more fleet combat and yet caldari are the kings of the fleets.

If CCP removed ECM 100% from the game it would balance it completly, give caldari another weapon lets say... advanced defender missiles or... switch the current EWar weapons around.

Caldari= Tracking disruptor
Minmitar= Target painter
Amarr= ... Advanced Nos systems?
Gallente= Sensor dampners.

I believe each race does have a 3rd core weapon system in the game already.

Gallente= Smart bombs( yes so you dont combine drones )
Caldari= Tracking Disruptors
Minmitar= Target Painters
Amarr= Nos

switch around all the ship bonuses and remove the ECM and it will balance the game out nicley.

If removing ECM is a bad idea change the system so it has a 30 second ROF and it ONLY UNLOCKS THE TARGETS LOCK give it a much higher CPU requirment to prevent people from using 5-8 on 1 ship making it impossible to target as it is at the moment.

I had an experience today inwhich 6 battleships couldn't take down 4 battleships (3 megas 1 raven 2 geddons VS 2 scorps 1 domi 1 raven)... 6 vs 4 you think we might have won? so very wrong... the scorps had 6-7 ecm in their mid slots the domi had 2 and the raven had 2...

we lost 4 battleships out of our 6 and they lost 0, call us noobs but i have a 2nd story,
1 Rattlesnake vs mega + raven, rattlesnake has full faction sheild tank and lows, raven has 5... yes 5 ecm multi specs and t2 javlin torps, the megathron has a fairly weak armament and tackling gear, the rattlesnake didnt lock either of the other battleships once.

See where im going with this?

i think with the changes i have suggested to core Ewar weapon systems will fix them possibly.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:23:00 - [28]
 

to the people asking for shortrange bs-sized lasers: the medium range of pulses is supposed to be one of our advantages...how about improving the general usefulness of medium range (guns) a bit instead of inventing new guns/changing bs sized pulses.

right now our medium range advantage isnt all that good because we often cant dictate range. most of our ships are slow and heavy. we dont use mwds often because we cant afford the fitting and much more importantly the hit to our cap.

as such the medium range of our pulses help us most when we are trying to get to an enemy. if the enemy is fitted with their shortrange guns though they are often better equipped to close on us than we are to keep them at range.


also: megabeams are longrange weapons not medium range



Originally by: Kunming

Yes Amarr miss the special flavour, but it wont do any good to give them missiles just to compensate for the crap lasers.



the idea of adding unbonused launcher hardpoints is not to create an amarr raven or typhoon but to give us a weaponsystem that is useful for tanking. as in a 0 cap using weapon system. and missiles seem to be a much better choice than the matari projectile weapons. tanking with lasers just doesnt work very well whether you have the cap use reduction bonus or not.



Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:26:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 31/10/2006 01:27:45
Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 30/10/2006 23:30:11
Originally by: Noriath

ECM: Shuts down all ability to lock, chance based, can hit at extreme range, has no penulty against targets that are very close. Racial versions availible for added effectiveness against known target. Countered only by mod with no other function.



eccm needs a massive boost in form of a complete change. just improving your chance to not get jammed (based on your sensorstrength) is not nearly good enough. especially on smaller ships which have pretty much no defense against ecm, even if that ecm is coming from another small ship. when they first annoucned the ecm changes there was talk of changing eccm so that it would give you a guaranteed lock for some time or maybe allows you to keep 1 lock active. that could be a start. or maybe reduce the effect of ecm to just disabling weapons while keeping the locks.

once ecm isnt as overpowering as it is now (and will continue to be in kali 1) it should fit better with the other racial ewar systems. the caldari ewar ships should propably even get some boosts in other departments then because they would no longer be invulnerable while successfully jamming people.


Originally by: Noriath

Tracking Disruptors: Jams only guns, makes them uneffective at short range against moving targets. Countered by: Missiles, drones.



tracking disruptors dont jam. they cut optimal range and tracking. they are most effective against lasers and other medium to long range turrets. they dont affect missiles or drones and are countered by tracking computers and enhancers.


Originally by: Noriath

Gallente Racial Ewar should be extremly effective at long range but not work at close range, so people have to come closer to the short range gallente ships.

Caldari Ewar should force people away from their fleet, by working well at close range, but being bad at long range, where Caldari can pelt you with guns and missiles.

Minmatar Ewar is OK as it is, it definatly has its uses, and I think lots of people disregard it too easily as a force multiplier maybe a bit more range...

Amarr Ewar should be something that makes you more voulnerable to them, not something that jams your guns. That's out of line with Amarrian core philosophy, which is to absorb damage through armor.



i agree with the gallente one. dampeners are already good at medium range and less effective at close range. if they got an dampener range bonus for one of their bs or maybe the tier 2 bc that would pretty much provide them with good ewar coverage.

for caldari i believe it would be better to change the effect of ecm or improve eccm and still let them affect all ranges. maybe the bb should lose the range bonus though.

minmatar ewar is something completly different really as it doesnt provide any defence. i'm really not too good informed about it. supposedly the effect can be quiet powerful if you have enough weapons on the target. still people dont use it much. propably because ecm is just much more useful. so this may get more use with kali.

amarr: tracking disruptors improve our tanks by reducing the damage the target inflicts upon our ships. this seems to be pretty much perfect for amarr imo as most of our ships are not designed for quick damage but more with outlasting the enemy and slowly taking them apart. of course we have our line of gank ships but even most of those can be tanked quiet nicely if you take lower tier guns and plates. also they get a rof bonus instead of a damage one, favouring steady damage over time instead of bursts. this will propably become more important with kali where we will have to go for more cap economical setups because of the hp-boost.

personally i think an offensive forms of ewar seems to be better suited for minmatar (already have one) or gallente but overall all races should have some sort of defensive ew.




Zargana
Wreckless Abandon
Un-Natural Selection
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:40:00 - [30]
 

omg there is so many opinions that i just have to post


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