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Zatch
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.04 07:17:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Zatch on 04/11/2006 07:17:48
With regards to repetitive-stress-injuries: there's no way to avoid them in any computer game or when writing an essay, for example. However, RSIs may be reduced by taking frequent breaks. If you're sitting there for 6 hours doing the same crap over and over, what do you honestly expect to happen? Sit in one place long enough, your blood starts to pool and you get internal bruising. Type for a long enough period of time with little or no downtime, your wrists are going to hurt. Drag hundreds of loot items without taking a break or flexing your wrist and fingers, you're going to hurt yourself. Everybody is prone to RSIs, and I hate to break it to you but this is one of those situations where you just have to deal with it. Make sure you're sitting properly, take a break at least once an hour (meaning get up, walk around, roll your wrists around, flex your fingers, roll your neck, stretch your arms, this helps with your back, legs, arms, neck, and hands,) and if you have a persistent pain (even a few hours after stopping your gaming completely) I suggest consulting a physician.

Takigama
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.04 07:31:00 - [62]
 

not sure wether to use this thread or not.. but when you create a jet can and rename it, it looses all its tags (i.e. it goes from "cargo container [CORP]<ALLIANCE>(cargo container)" to "testname")

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.04 08:56:00 - [63]
 

How *exactly* do you salvage materials from a wreck? Do you have to have a salvage mod fitted?

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.04 10:20:00 - [64]
 

Empty wrecks should have a different colour on the overview - nice and simple :)

Alexi Borizkova
Caldari
New Age Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2006.11.04 11:48:00 - [65]
 

After testing wreck salvaging for a while, admittedly only maybe 20-25 wrecks(around a third of which were player t2 fitted battleship wrecks), I came back to station with a whopping five different salvaged components.

By looking at the at least 150(or as many as 250+) needed to construct a moderately useful rig, I am left quite simply flabbergasted. Is the low return rate of salvaging intended?

If so, then we can expect rig prices to be exorbinent, and not just for the short term. I would not be surprised to see 50 million the going price for a 5% grid rig(months after release!), with these return rates.

Is there something I am missing? The only way I could see rigs becoming accessible enough to actually be used by the rank and file of eve on ships they risk is if the yields were upped, or the component drops were added into mission bonus tables like t2 comps once were.

Otherwise, I just can't see how these are going to be accessible. It would just be a way for the haves to have more, as it were, in pvp and mission running. As who would put a 5m module on a frigate, much less one even more expensive.

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2006.11.04 13:01:00 - [66]
 



the results of my wreck salvage testing..

The module is called a "salvage module" its med slot. Think code breaker / anaylizer type. It has a cycle time of about 5-7 secs for me. You can fit (and use) multiple modules on the same wreck.

1) wrecks have to be "empty" of loot. they don't work on it if theres that civilian shield booster in there, so grab that phat loot first.

2) Wrecks can be tractor beamed.

3) once you pull it to within 5k, you can activate the module. If you find something it tells you, and automatically puts whatever it was in cargo hold. If you don't, it also tells you and either way the wreck dissappears once either of these happens

4) I got abot a 20% yield of stuff, from gurista rats in an 05 in forge. I then ques up and tried a mission. I found ONE item out of a lvl 3 that i had, and NO structures provided anything. Maybe they do, and I just didn't hit it, but I popped 11 structures and none of them dropped components.

5) Wrecks can now have zero loot, i mean the basic stuff. you can open a can, and have it have nothing, and then salvage it and get something, or nothing depending.

6) I next went to the drone lands, the new regions to try out there some. The avg was the same, about 1-4/6 drones would give me "one" item. I have yet to find multipules of anything, or greater than one.

7) I had bought a salvage rig bpo, and was going to make it to add to my chances. It takes "over a hundred" of 3 different types of salvage components. Given that in the 4 hours I messed with the salvage (hour travel time) I found..7 salvage components....


More on this later..

Kaaii

Zatch
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.04 14:22:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Zatch on 04/11/2006 14:26:20
The salvage components are seeded, so you can manufacture rigs easily on test. Also I believe the salvage % improving rig (salvage tackle or something) is the only built rig that is seeded, so you can at least test them and their effect on salvage material return rates.

I still maintain that only cans containing loot should be dropped, and salvaging should be performed prior to looting. It's not very difficult to add in one extra variable (a single bit, 1 or 0) that determines internally whether a salvage attempt has been made on a wreck, and if so you may no longer make more attempts. The only ways to pop the wrecks, then, would be shooting at them or removing the loot. At the moment the system is backwards and it makes less sense this way given that the primary function of wrecks will be exactly the same as cargo containers: normal loot. Salvaging is just an extra ability to squeeze a little more out of a wreck that was dropped (already containing loot) prior to removing the loot. That way you don't **** off the mission runners and NPCers who don't want to waste a slot on a salvage module and don't want to waste time + ammo on popping cans. Leaving cans lying around isn't an option for most people and for those who are indifferent, they naturally won't care if the mission runners are satisfied with a change.

Edit: I'm still using 'can' and 'wreck' interchangeably, the point is the same either way.

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.11.04 14:40:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Zatch
Edited by: Zatch on 04/11/2006 14:26:20
The salvage components are seeded, so you can manufacture rigs easily on test. Also I believe the salvage % improving rig (salvage tackle or something) is the only built rig that is seeded, so you can at least test them and their effect on salvage material return rates.

I still maintain that only cans containing loot should be dropped, and salvaging should be performed prior to looting. It's not very difficult to add in one extra variable (a single bit, 1 or 0) that determines internally whether a salvage attempt has been made on a wreck, and if so you may no longer make more attempts. The only ways to pop the wrecks, then, would be shooting at them or removing the loot. At the moment the system is backwards and it makes less sense this way given that the primary function of wrecks will be exactly the same as cargo containers: normal loot. Salvaging is just an extra ability to squeeze a little more out of a wreck that was dropped (already containing loot) prior to removing the loot. That way you don't **** off the mission runners and NPCers who don't want to waste a slot on a salvage module and don't want to waste time + ammo on popping cans. Leaving cans lying around isn't an option for most people and for those who are indifferent, they naturally won't care if the mission runners are satisfied with a change.

Edit: I'm still using 'can' and 'wreck' interchangeably, the point is the same either way.


Think of it this way; You shoot a ship. The first thing is to take the stuff that's intact and works, like modules. You then decide to spend some extra time on it because you want to take some of the intact or damaged but useable components, that's the salvaging and that's why you get stuff like Damaged Artificial Neural Network out of it.

The salvaging rate is still being tuned afaik, not sure if it was changed in yesterdays update.

Talidorn
Sad Panda Inc.
Pandora's Box.
Posted - 2006.11.04 15:33:00 - [69]
 

Is this a bad video driver for my laptop or is it wrong dx versioning issue or...

Thanks,

Talidorn

Fubear
Vogon Heavy Industries
Posted - 2006.11.04 22:07:00 - [70]
 

I haven't been able to test salvaging yet - FD- is the ONLY place where the salvage module is found and its on the other side of the galaxy.

Is there any way to identify which wrecks have been looted and which have not?

Imagine looting after a battle or a mission. You have 30-50 wrecks to check which do not blow up when you loot them. How do i know which wrecks I have looted and which I have not? How do i know when I have looted them all?

The only solution I can think of right now is shooting them after looting. Which is complete a waste of ammo and a workaround for a poorly implemented game mechanic. We definately need to have the old 'destruct-on-loot' mechanism when looting, and an auto destruct-on-salvage as well to keep space tidy and less confusing.

SUPER J0SH
Posted - 2006.11.04 22:25:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Talidorn
Is this a bad video driver for my laptop or is it wrong dx versioning issue or...

Thanks,

Talidorn



using damaged cloaking devices is a bad idea m'kay!

Hon Kovell
Gallente
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2006.11.05 11:55:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Monica Foulkes
Originally by: zoltar
I self destructed 2 freighters on test server, didnt drop any wreck.

I wonder if that was due to the bug described in point 4 by the OP or if freighters just behave as they always have done? Any chance you can eject from the frighter and blow it up with another ship instead?

I had someone blow up my freighter a couple of times and there was no wreck either time. Even if they don't drop cargo, there should be a wreck to use the salvage module on.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.05 15:53:00 - [73]
 

In my testing the salvage chance is much better form NPCs than from PC wrecks.

Surely this is a bug? ugh

pardux
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.05 16:32:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Mephysto
Wrecks now drop in place of the old cargo containers. They cause no more or less lag than the cans did. As stated above, they do not pop when emptied because you also have the new ability to salvage wrecks, and potentially find components for rig manufacturing. 4, 5 and 6 are all probably bugs. Please check they are listed on the bugs thread on this forum, so we can review them later when we have a stable build.



what about fps lag ._. will this cause you to see nothing for 1-2 min longer now when you warp into a battlefield =/ ?

Zatch
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.06 00:27:00 - [75]
 

I still maintain that wrecks should pop when they are looted, and they shouldn't drop empty. It's the same situation with a tractor beam: either you fit one and possibly gimp your setup for easier looting, or you don't fit one and either slowboat or have an alt come in with tractor beams. It should work the same way with salvage modules: if you loot the cans, you knowingly sacrifice the ability to salvage from that wreck. If you bring a salvage module, you can try salvaging first. Industrial ships have mids so I don't see this being a problem at all.

Voin
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2006.11.06 12:36:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Zatch
..... Industrial ships have mids so I don't see this being a problem at all.


Mostly agree with you, and as some other ppl's said earlier COLORING wreck's 'll help with looting it's...

But... Worlds Collide lvl 4 mission not accept any industrial ship in the area... :-)

Chris2746
Gallente
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.06 13:32:00 - [77]
 

Couple things could be done to make the whole wreck salvaging system work better.

First of all, it is my opinion that ships should still drop the cargo containers like they did before if they have general loot. and the tractor beams should be able to tractor them too (as it is the tractor beams cannot tractor cargo containers that are dropped from some mission npc's/players etc) The primary reason for this is that it makes picking up the loot durring missions alot easier without having to fly to every single wreck to see if it has something or not especially in missions where most ships dont drop anything, it becomes a real hassle. additionally, it would probably be useful if not every ship created a wreck, it only creates a wreck if there was something lootable either through salvage or normal loot.

Also, rather than have the salvage system a med slot, maybe make it go in the rig as a module because many ships especially shield tanking ships and such have layouts that cant really afford to lose a module slot for something as neccesary as that, and it would be nice to not have to go snag my indy for EVERY npc ship thats been killed.

As with any new implementation of this scale its bound to have bugs and issues at first i know, but what i mentioned are things that really should be looked into prior to the live release of kali.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2006.11.06 14:48:00 - [78]
 

That would cause considerable problems to begin with- you'd need to salvage wrecks to build the rig needed to salvage the wrecks :)

I like the idea of a rig with a salvaging bonus, though- perhaps one that increases the salvage yield. Is there already one that does this?

Xcom
Gallente
Quantum Vortex Battalion
Posted - 2006.11.06 21:43:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Zatch
I still maintain that wrecks should pop when they are looted, and they shouldn't drop empty. It's the same situation with a tractor beam: either you fit one and possibly gimp your setup for easier looting, or you don't fit one and either slowboat or have an alt come in with tractor beams. It should work the same way with salvage modules: if you loot the cans, you knowingly sacrifice the ability to salvage from that wreck. If you bring a salvage module, you can try salvaging first. Industrial ships have mids so I don't see this being a problem at all.


Your idea gimps all salvage lovers chance to salvage more. Why not simply have a small flag or icon appearing on the wrecks to indicate itís empty. And if you want to, use drones to blow it up. No ammo lost, just a little time consuming.

Questions:
1. When you activate the salvage module on a wreck, do you have to wait until it has finished its cycle to give you the item? And how long is the cycle?

2. Does different ships, structures and factions. Give different wrecks?

3. Can you place items inside wrecks or only take items out?

4. The wrecks are very large. Canít they cause problems in battlefields when ships get tangled up inside them? Maybe make them smaller or able for ships to fly through them.

Satal Sonshi
Minmatar
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
Freelancer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.06 22:13:00 - [80]
 

In another thread earlier today, this was suggested, which I find particularly simple and valuable. I feel that if this was implemented, it would clear up all confusion over loot collection, so that we could instead focus on salvaging (which is the whole point of wrecks, right?):

1. A wreck containing cargo (loot), has a filled in Triangle icon.
2. A wreck containing no cargo (no loot), has an empty Triangle icon.

I understand that this goes against the concept that you have to LOOK first to know if there's cargo, but this is a game, and ease/value are important. Explain it as a default mass/density scanner that can discover if there's stuff in cargo, but it can't discern what it is. But please don't make looting an overly infuriating task. Salvaging, the new stuff, is what should take new effort.

Kanerix Wolfe
Caldari
The Storm Knights
The Cool Kids Club
Posted - 2006.11.07 15:05:00 - [81]
 

1. As it stands, tractor beams no longer works on standard cans.
2. When popping drones, the wrecks end up having more mass and are much larger than the actual drone was.
3. Using a tractor beam on a wreck looks almost disconcerting, as there is a lot of misc crap floating there and it all moves together with the tractor beam.
4. Player ship wrecks show as the race and class of ship that was wrecked. Mission ship and 'rats' do not, and just display as 'Wreck'.
5. Has anybody been able to successfully salvage a rig from a wreck?

Nachtjaeger
Minmatar
COVENANT OF THE STARS
Posted - 2006.11.07 18:11:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Kanerix Wolfe

5. Has anybody been able to successfully salvage a rig from a wreck?


Rigs aren't salvaged from wrecks, components for rigs are. Regardless of the size of ship, ie frig, cruiser, bs, all wrecks only yield 1 item on a successful salvage attempt.

There is a salvage rig, the t1 version gives 10% extra chance of successfully salvaging, this doesn't mean you actually get anything tho. From what i experienced salvaging NPC wrecks only a few yielded nothing at all. Salvage module has a 10 second cycle time and you can sit there until it successfully salvages, just like codebreakers and analysers. What i didn't check was if fitting more than one salvage rig is possible and if it is, if they get a stacking penalty. As it stands atm, you only get a 25% chance with salvage at level 5 and no rig.

Tek'a Rain
Gallente
Collegium Mechanicae
Posted - 2006.11.07 19:14:00 - [83]
 

word from somone in another thread is that you can stack them, and using 4 at a time against a single wreck can mean loot every time.

triny
Posted - 2006.11.08 19:05:00 - [84]
 

Well, new patch tried the salvaging again. used 2 salvage mods, 3 rigs for enhancing efficiency of salvaging. result was that 50% off the time i got 1 or 2 mods. The amounts off the items needed to build a rig has been decreased so it might actuall work now.

LaCoHa
The Carebear Stare
Posted - 2006.11.08 22:37:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: LaCoHa on 08/11/2006 22:38:50
may have already been mentioned.. but seeing as killing the Caldari Navy/Imperial Navy/whatever is easy as hell to kill (I am a criminal you see.. so they like to shoot at me, but dont get sentry support, nor do they shoot at my drones -silly, i know) in Revelations.. has anyone checked those wrecks? You can basically have an endless supply of wrecks by docking/undocking and then slaughtering all the new arrivals.

anyone looted them? do they give you good/better stuff?


Ratzap
Gallente
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.11.09 02:40:00 - [86]
 

Multiple salvage mods seem to give you multiple tries per wreck so long as they get activated quickly enough. Once 1 succeeds though, it looks like that poofs the wreck (which is logical enough).

We'll need some sort of salvage cruiser setup. I'm thinking Blackbird or abuse a recon at the moment (needs med slots, tractors and nanos/expanders).

Ratzap

Hesed
Amarr
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2006.11.09 07:33:00 - [87]
 

I can't seem to open a wreck unless I target lock it first. I scribbled a BgRpt on it, but now I'm not sure if should have bothered.

Bug or Feature?

Elfman
Combat-Evolved
Posted - 2006.11.09 10:00:00 - [88]
 

Sounds like salvage drones would be usefull here.

Was something mentioned way back in 2003 or so.......

Tobber Harley
Minmatar
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:25:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Mephysto
Wrecks now drop in place of the old cargo containers. They cause no more or less lag than the cans did. As stated above, they do not pop when emptied because you also have the new ability to salvage wrecks, and potentially find components for rig manufacturing. 4, 5 and 6 are all probably bugs. Please check they are listed on the bugs thread on this forum, so we can review them later when we have a stable build.


I tested salvaging wrecks yesterday, and it seems like it's working ok. I just have one BIG complaint! You can't salvage a wreck when there is still loot in the can, which makes it pretty cumbersome since you have to wait for the wreck to get within 1500m to be able to open and empty it first.

Why doesn't the salvage module just transfer all loot in the wreck to your cargo when doing the salvage? And if you don't have enough cargo space for the loot in the wreck it should just complain about it and stop the salvage module...

Regards, Tobber Harley...

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2006.11.09 21:33:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Jinx Barker on 10/11/2006 03:55:25
Just tested some things on SiSi.

Folllwoing ratio on T1 Rigs now: 22/9 or 10/22 items needed. Which means that with the current 1 item of slavage per/Wreck thing. We only need to kill about 56-60 ships as opposed to 250-30 before.

I think its good news.

I would add following Improvements to Rigs:

1) Change warning pop-upto "Rig will be destroyed if ship is Destroyed, Repackaged or Rig is Unpluged"

2) Add ability to unplug the Rigs, w/o Repackaging ships, so the insurance wont be voided.

3) Make a Description tullip/hover info, or ability to left-click and get information about the Rig installed in the ship. Currently there no such ability, have to just read the Rig name and then search the market for additional Information.


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