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Makaera Koshito
Einherjar Rising
Posted - 2006.10.29 21:07:00 - [31]
 

If wrecks are replacing cans, how will this affect killing Freighters? Are wrecks the answer to this?

Zoltar
Caldari
Perdu Opus
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:06:00 - [32]
 

I self destructed 2 freighters on test server, didnt drop any wreck.

Bone
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 08:06:00 - [33]
 

(I can't get on test, but am curious)

If wrecks cannot be destroyed, how does this work if you pop multiple ships at the undocking point of a station? Surely this will make it almost impossible to put up a fight if you cannot move when undocking?
...Fish in a Barrel anyone?ugh

Directive
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:32:00 - [34]
 

About the naming issue;

Currently on TQ, if I "Set Name..." a can, I have to close and reopen the overview for the name to update. Maybe that same issue still exists on the Sisi builds?

Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:12:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Sphynx Stormlord on 30/10/2006 14:14:21
After running a single mission on the test server, I can say that it will be a rare occurance for me to loot missions in the future if wrecks are put in as they are.

Previously, looting had slightly more mouse clicks than I liked, and looting large missions could cause noticible rsi pains.
Currently, when looting with a tractor beam, each can requires:
.ctrl click the can in either overview or space to lock it
function key activated to use tractor beam
.click to select can on overview
.click to open can
ctrl-a to select all the items in the can
.click and drag to move the loot to cargo bay
4 clicks per can, and clicking on buttons in the top right of the screen and the lower middle.

Kali will be adding:
.click to unlock empty wreck
and a confusion as to which wrecks have been looted.
If one has a salvage module, it probably adds a click or two to do the salvaging as well as the looting.

I would very much like to have less rather than more clicks involved in the looting process, either using hotkeys, or a more streamlined process.
For example, there could be an option on cans or wrecks similar to the 'scoop to dronebay' option on drones, which would move all the contents of that can or wreck to ones cargo bay (only failing if ones cargo bay isnt large enough)

Even better would be an auto-looting tractor beam, that puts the contents of a can or wreck into ones cargo bay as soon as the item is close enough.

Sakhun Adal
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:03:00 - [36]
 

I used to destroy all the cans (after looting the BS ones) to minimize the lag. If one can't pop the wrecks....I bet a system will become very laggy after 2-3h of intensive hunting.

Can one use a tractor beem to get the wreck closer? I cant test it since the server is down :(

DukeJoost1
The Last Solution Inc
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:07:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
....

I would very much like to have less rather than more clicks involved in the looting process, either using hotkeys, or a more streamlined process.
For example, there could be an option on cans or wrecks similar to the 'scoop to dronebay' option on drones, which would move all the contents of that can or wreck to ones cargo bay (only failing if ones cargo bay isnt large enough)

Even better would be an auto-looting tractor beam, that puts the contents of a can or wreck into ones cargo bay as soon as the item is close enough.


/signed !

Indeed the current amount of clicks when looting is high, with salvaging it might be even more.
Looking forward to a smart T2?? tractor beam.

Fly safe

Evol1
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 - [38]
 

I wasted a lot of ammo trying to shoot/pop a wreck. It didn't appear to take any damage.
That goes for both player and NPC wrecks. I self destructed a BS and it left a wreck with no loot, then couldn't shoot the wreck (took no damage)
It's gonna be a mess if wreck upon wreck gets piled up and only a "wrecker" can scoop it up.

Turq
Minmatar
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:05:00 - [39]
 

I destroyed a wreck, from a Rohk I had ejected from and blown up with a hurricane..

Jezra Olmerga
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:24:00 - [40]
 

Got many Wrecks, but:
- which ship should be used for salvaging?
- which modules must be fitted?

Thx

Monica Foulkes
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:47:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: zoltar
I self destructed 2 freighters on test server, didnt drop any wreck.

I wonder if that was due to the bug described in point 4 by the OP or if freighters just behave as they always have done? Any chance you can eject from the frighter and blow it up with another ship instead?


As for blowing up wrecks, they have the same hitpoints as cans.

Skarraza
Gallente
Crossflow Enterprises
Posted - 2006.10.31 00:40:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
Even better would be an auto-looting tractor beam, that puts the contents of a can or wreck into ones cargo bay as soon as the item is close enough.


To me, having the tractor beam pull the entire can to you at a constant speed, regardless of it's total mass always seemed a bit odd. It will seem even more so if you drag a wreck to you. The whole point of a wreck is that its a pile of whats left over - which is what the images even look like. So how would we expect a tractor beam to maintain the integrity of the wreck???

I think rather than dragging wrecks to you, the tractor beam should permit you to loot the cans from that distance. They could change the tractor beam so that it gives a constant (passive) benefit, or just that it has to be turned on and drawing cap.

It would be great if they could also cut down on the number of clicks. A shortcut for "drag everything to my cargo" would be awesome.


Lefia
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
Posted - 2006.10.31 05:49:00 - [43]
 

I think an option to autodestroy wreck upon looting is definately a neccecity for those who don't want to bother with scavaging them. It would also go a long way to preventing lots of empty wrecks from hanging around in space.

As for the deal with blowing up lots and lots of rifters to make a profit... I don't see how this could be any more effective than just mining. Surely mining would probably be a lot less tedious (amazingly); and in the long run I highly doubt that any gain on salvaging an insured self destructed shift would be worth the time investment. I would imagine it's a fairly low gain as it stands.

Lienzo
Minmatar
Amanuensis
Posted - 2006.10.31 07:05:00 - [44]
 

Maybe vaporizing a wreck should carry a 3% chance of creating a temporary gas cloud.


Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.31 09:50:00 - [45]
 

Last time I was able to enter Sisi the salvage module wasn't jet available. To address some of the above problem, a combo tractor beam/salvage module can be a solution, or to be more clear, giving to salvage module the ability to tractor the wreck.
As thing stand, a dedicate salvager in a slow ship need to use 2 modules: 1 high for the tractor beam, and another for the salvage module (a middle i think). That will be a big nerfing for the PvE players Sad, the ones that have the greatest chance to have big numbers of wrecks.

PS: I will be very unahppy to shoot unlooted/unsalvaged wrecks only to clear the space a little, some of the best loot I have found (faction items and BPC) came from frigates NPC rats.

Za Po
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.31 14:34:00 - [46]
 

Hmm... even if the number of wrecks is equal to the number of cans in the current system... if the wrecks don't pop when looted, they are going to be considerably more numerous at any given moment.

Inairin
Posted - 2006.11.01 22:42:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Za Po
Hmm... even if the number of wrecks is equal to the number of cans in the current system... if the wrecks don't pop when looted, they are going to be considerably more numerous at any given moment.


you'll have gimps like me trying yet another failed method to making my living off them by going around with a salvage kitted ship, popping the wrecks. then realizing i get more money from mining veldspar and the place will be so clouded with wrecks you will get bumped 1500 AU out of the solar system before stopping.

Cpt Silance
Posted - 2006.11.02 06:51:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
Edited by: Sphynx Stormlord on 30/10/2006 14:14:21
After running a single mission on the test server, I can say that it will be a rare occurance for me to loot missions in the future if wrecks are put in as they are.

Previously, looting had slightly more mouse clicks than I liked, and looting large missions could cause noticible rsi pains.
Currently, when looting with a tractor beam, each can requires:
.ctrl click the can in either overview or space to lock it
function key activated to use tractor beam
.click to select can on overview
.click to open can
ctrl-a to select all the items in the can
.click and drag to move the loot to cargo bay
4 clicks per can, and clicking on buttons in the top right of the screen and the lower middle.

Kali will be adding:
.click to unlock empty wreck
and a confusion as to which wrecks have been looted.
If one has a salvage module, it probably adds a click or two to do the salvaging as well as the looting.

I would very much like to have less rather than more clicks involved in the looting process, either using hotkeys, or a more streamlined process.
For example, there could be an option on cans or wrecks similar to the 'scoop to dronebay' option on drones, which would move all the contents of that can or wreck to ones cargo bay (only failing if ones cargo bay isnt large enough)

Even better would be an auto-looting tractor beam, that puts the contents of a can or wreck into ones cargo bay as soon as the item is close enough.


This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad

Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Posted - 2006.11.02 17:10:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Cpt Silance

This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad


I wouldn't go throwing accusations like that. There are a lot of people with RSI problems, and minimal mouse movements are an integral part of ergonomics.

I also vote for the auto-popping of emtpy wrecks, maybe as a user option.

A combined tractor/salvage high slot module would be great!

Auto-looting with a tractor beam is also a plus.

Cpt Silance
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:18:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Andargor theWise
Originally by: Cpt Silance

This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad


I wouldn't go throwing accusations like that. There are a lot of people with RSI problems, and minimal mouse movements are an integral part of ergonomics.

I also vote for the auto-popping of emtpy wrecks, maybe as a user option.

A combined tractor/salvage high slot module would be great!

Auto-looting with a tractor beam is also a plus.



I'm sorry if you missunderstode(sp) me or maybe i missunderstude(sp), but i tought that EVE was a MMORPG, meaning that you play WITH other people.

The way i see it, with wreks the Devs are trying to get more people to work and play together, say i'm a salvege I'll kill to be with one of the mission runers so i could salvage, like 20-30 wreks after 1 mission and i could help with his loot giving the mission runner time to consentrate on killing his targets and finishing the mission quickly = morre ISK. Both Salveger/Looter and Mission Runner WIN!

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:15:00 - [51]
 

So were I find someone willing to spen an afrenoon running after my wreks? Hardly fun. And he need a god set of skill too.

Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2006.11.02 21:43:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Cpt Silance

This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad


While I have not tried to set up any macros, if there are activities in the game that are not fun, and agravate rsi due to repetative clicks doing what is basically a repetative task, why are they there? Why not improve the interface so that no one would be tempted to set up macros.

Good gameplay should involve decisions, idealy interesting ones, not repetative actions that people might want to macro.

so:
Autopilot: good - allows one to do something that would otherwise be repetative with one click
Mining: bad - nothing but turning game time into isk with no fun value; hauling ore for some miners realy messed up my hands once, never doing that again.
Looting: bad as currently implented; see my earlier post.

Anything that reduces the repetative aspects of eve with respect to either gameplay or interface is an improvement; less repetative stuff = less desire for macros from those who make or use them.

Cpt Silance
Posted - 2006.11.03 05:52:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
Originally by: Cpt Silance

This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad


While I have not tried to set up any macros, if there are activities in the game that are not fun, and agravate rsi due to repetative clicks doing what is basically a repetative task, why are they there? Why not improve the interface so that no one would be tempted to set up macros.

Good gameplay should involve decisions, idealy interesting ones, not repetative actions that people might want to macro.

so:
Autopilot: good - allows one to do something that would otherwise be repetative with one click
Mining: bad - nothing but turning game time into isk with no fun value; hauling ore for some miners realy messed up my hands once, never doing that again.
Looting: bad as currently implented; see my earlier post.

Anything that reduces the repetative aspects of eve with respect to either gameplay or interface is an improvement; less repetative stuff = less desire for macros from those who make or use them.



Have you Ever played any game. I want you to name just 1 MMO game that is not repetetive, hell i want you to name 1 Single/Multi player game that is not repetetive. PvP = Lock Targe, Engage Weapons - F1,F2,F3..., Activate Tank Alt+F1, Alt+F2...., repeat till no more targets or you're dead, go back to station get a new ship, rince and repeat.

I think you're whining just for the hell of it. " Oh god i can't insta loot all my kills, i want it changed."Rolling Eyes

BTW, what is RSI?

Cpt Silance
Posted - 2006.11.03 06:06:00 - [54]
 

Have you ever mined with say more than just yourself or 1-2 people. While mining you have a lot of time to chat with all your m8s, discusing Industrial plans, PvP anf Fleet tactics, ***** on the Forums.

Eve is a social game, if you want a fast moving space game, that doesn't involve socialising try out Freelancer it's a good game with a lot mods out there to suite almost everyone. And it has an Outo-Loot butten.Very Happy

Avrunath
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:54:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Avrunath on 03/11/2006 11:57:24
Edited by: Avrunath on 03/11/2006 11:54:51
Edited by: Avrunath on 03/11/2006 11:54:36
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Maybe changing the colour of your looted wrecks can be the easy solution.
Green = not looted, white = looted, yellow = another player can.


/signed

bonesbro
Legio Prima Victrix
Posted - 2006.11.03 22:11:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cpt Silance
Originally by: Sphynx Stormlord
Originally by: Cpt Silance

This looks a lot like a whine about being dificoult to set up a macro, especialy the part where you whine about diferent and far in between places to click on the screen.Evil or Very Mad


While I have not tried to set up any macros, if there are activities in the game that are not fun, and agravate rsi due to repetative clicks doing what is basically a repetative task, why are they there? Why not improve the interface so that no one would be tempted to set up macros.

Good gameplay should involve decisions, idealy interesting ones, not repetative actions that people might want to macro.

Anything that reduces the repetative aspects of eve with respect to either gameplay or interface is an improvement; less repetative stuff = less desire for macros from those who make or use them.



Have you Ever played any game. I want you to name just 1 MMO game that is not repetetive, hell i want you to name 1 Single/Multi player game that is not repetetive. PvP = Lock Targe, Engage Weapons - F1,F2,F3..., Activate Tank Alt+F1, Alt+F2...., repeat till no more targets or you're dead, go back to station get a new ship, rince and repeat.

I think you're whining just for the hell of it. " Oh god i can't insta loot all my kills, i want it changed."Rolling Eyes

BTW, what is RSI?


RSI = Repetative Stress Injury. Like Carpal Tunnel Syndrome or Tendonitis.

I stopped playing EVE because it is physically painful. While I enjoy the game, it is one of the most painful games for me to play. This is primarily because it is so mouse-centric. Common game actions require constant clicking and dragging. That hurts. In most MMOs you can press a key or two instead of reaching over to the mouse, moving it around, clicking, dragging, etc.

UI changes that require more steps to accomplish a task make the game more painful for someone with an injury. The salvaging changes described here appear to have that problem.

Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2006.11.04 00:20:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Sphynx Stormlord on 04/11/2006 00:21:05
Originally by: Cpt Silance

/snip ignorant insults
BTW, what is RSI?


Personally I recomend www.google.com or en.wikipedia.org for 'what is ...?' questions, rather than insulting people by ignoring the medical condition they are talking about and making assumptions that they are just whining.

As someone else has pointed out, RSI (repetative strain injury) is muscle or tendon inflamation caused by repetative mouse or keyboard actions, and agrevated by having a poor posture while using computers.
I would strongly recomed reading up about it if you use computers for any length of time; keeping a good posture to start with will likly stop RSI from developing, but once you have it, it doesnt realy go away.

I find that RSI is particularly agrevated by short, fast mouse movements, particularly those combined with mouse clicks or drags (which are worse than clicks).

Having hotkeys to reduce the dependance on a mouse interface can help significantly; performing different actions with the mouse rather than repeating the same one in a short space of time is also useful.

Addressing your rant, though: MMO's do tend to have a problem with repetative gameplay; the problem is not, however that the game play is repetative, but that the mouse movements are repetative over short periods of time.

Example non-repetative game: Laser Squad Nemesis (play by email tactical combat; worth a look for a while, at least; main skill while playing ones turn: predicting ones enemy's moves and tactics).

Zatch
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.04 06:46:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Zatch on 04/11/2006 06:48:44
Okay here are the facts, including the problems with wrecks, and a viable solution:

Facts:
1) Many structures and all NPCs drop wrecks upon destruction, so far as I can tell.
2) Wrecks may drop with absolutely nothing in them. I am used to seeing loot after blowing up structures, this is no longer the case.
3) Different sized wrecks are dropped for different-sized NPCs. All structures seem to drop the same sized wreck.
4) Wrecks do not pop after you remove the loot from them (if any.)
5) Wrecks appear to have infinite capacity.
6) Wrecks don't have a noticeable impact on visual performance until we zoom all the way in, when the polygons and textures are finally rendered (and there's much more to a wreck than a can, but they fade with distance regardless of your LOD settings it seems.)

Problems:
1) More cans (wrecks are fancy cans) means more time spent looting. When half of the cans are empty, I'm spending half of my looting time doing absolutely nothing worthwhile.
2) Wrecks cause more lag because they are not automatically destroyed after looting (though they are probably destroyed after a set amount of time, maybe an hour like the old cans.)

Solutions:
1) Do NOT drop a wreck if it contains nothing. Yes, this means you will have less to salvage, however most people engaged in combat will not be packing the salvaging modules anyways. Also this will help prevent an over-proliferation of rigs.
Here is what should happen if and only-if a wreck spawns:
* The wreck contains loot.
* Looting the wreck automatically destroys it.
* This means salvaging must be done before looting. This will NOT adversely affect salvaging operations, it serves only to alleviate the stress imposed on mission-runners and NPCers who want to just loot a can and have it disappear from the overview. Leaving the cans floating in space with some sort of tag or color change is also not a reasonable solution because when cans are a problem, they are a big problem (meaning they are literally a cloud standing between you and your destination; looting the cans clears out the problem.)

These are not so much suggestions as they are demands. These changes must be implemented or at least something similar in order to prevent frustrating the PVE/Mission crowd any further. Once again, the system is broken at the moment and is a BAD new feature. Adding a bad new feature means reducing the quality of the game. Fixing the issue changes this from a bad, performance-hindering and frustration-inducing issue into a nice graphical upgrade with the optional ability to gain more from a typical loot drop if the salvaging operation is performed before removing loot from the wreckage.

I hate to sound like an ******* but that's how it is, and this issue has not been getting the attention it deserves. If the system is implemented as it currently exists on SISI, the game will be WORSE than pre-Kali. Think about it.

Alexi Borizkova
Caldari
New Age Solutions
The Laughing Men
Posted - 2006.11.04 06:50:00 - [59]
 

2006.11.04 04:45:32 Notify You successfully salvage from the Gallente Battleship Wreck. Unfortunately there was nothing to be salvaged.

I have been salvaging dozens of wrecks and so far this is the most common message I get.

With the requirements of the rigging blueprints the prices for rigs will be, quite frankly, insane.

Is the intended yield of items from wrecks intended? Are these just goign to be a way for those with deep pockets to buy fights? (more than they already do)

Shimarra
Caldari
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2006.11.04 07:03:00 - [60]
 

With all due respect to the RSI suffers, you probably shouldn't be playing EvE. The game is built to be mouse-centric, and the actions required royally mess with most suffers of Carpal and other wrist and arm RSI.
Now, I personally believe that making the game a bit easier with respect to hot-keys and keyboard interaction will make the game a bit more playable for everybody.


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