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hitech redneck
Digital Mind Crimes
Posted - 2006.11.22 17:36:00 - [211]
 

Well i see that us drone and fighter users are getting the shaft so far. Both still have not been changed. Guess the hp increase will not help carriers that much.

Xcom
Gallente
Quantum Vortex Battalion
Posted - 2006.11.22 20:35:00 - [212]
 

I hope a dev looks into the ideas posted in this thread. It seams they have been ignoring drones because they have more important things on there minds. Bugs are not exactly what are prioritized. They only want the game to look more appealing from the outsider. Even though they have lots of work to do on what they already got. They choose to add more ships and new feechers instead of bug hunting and balancing. Seriously drones have been around sense the beginning of the game and it’s still bugged and has a crapy interface.

Nir
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.22 22:20:00 - [213]
 

I think Tuxford hasn't touched Heavy Drone HP yet in fear of unbalancing the Dominix. Dominix as is stands is going to be even better in Kali, so any more indirect boosts to it would tip it over the scales. Its a double edged sword, on the one hand nearly everyone uses drones to a greater or lesser extend, so a boost to drone HP seems in order. On the other, the current situation of the Dom having 2k+ HP Ogre IIs is just wrong.

I say lower the HP bonus on droneships from 10% to 5% HP/level. Then increase the HP of all drones and fighters by 50%. That way everyone who can use drones (Every Battleship, BCs and most Cruisers) sees some improvement here and everyone will be happy.

My 2 cents.

Admiral Pieg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.22 23:18:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Nir
I think Tuxford hasn't touched Heavy Drone HP yet in fear of unbalancing the Dominix. Dominix as is stands is going to be even better in Kali, so any more indirect boosts to it would tip it over the scales. Its a double edged sword, on the one hand nearly everyone uses drones to a greater or lesser extend, so a boost to drone HP seems in order. On the other, the current situation of the Dom having 2k+ HP Ogre IIs is just wrong.

I say lower the HP bonus on droneships from 10% to 5% HP/level. Then increase the HP of all drones and fighters by 50%. That way everyone who can use drones (Every Battleship, BCs and most Cruisers) sees some improvement here and everyone will be happy.

My 2 cents.


^ you mean 25% right? And even then, i think it would unbalance things, as 25% off 1000 is less then 25% off 1250.

Lets say a drones hp now is 1000, with a domi thats 1500. If they bost all drones to 1250 base hp and reduce the domis bonus to 25% then the final result would be 1562.5 hp for the drone in kali.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.22 23:56:00 - [215]
 

No HP boost, sig radius or skill changes in KALI to drones due to the problem mentioned below...Seems easily resolved to me.

PROBLEM: Drones being re-deployed quickly with full shields after being scooped.

SOLUTION: Have the dronebay slowly repair drones and make it so they cannot be re-launched until fully repaired.

PROS: Makes targetting drones viable, may entice drone ships to use remote repairs, allows for differences to passive dronebay repair rates to reflect better drone ships.

CONS: People need to be very careful when recalling drones. Poor drone AI is already a nuisance - delays for relaunch after repairs could play havoc.

Anything I'm missing here?

Selnix
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.23 00:40:00 - [216]
 

Quote:
No HP boost, sig radius or skill changes in KALI to drones due to the problem mentioned below...Seems easily resolved to me.

PROBLEM: Drones being re-deployed quickly with full shields after being scooped.

SOLUTION: Have the dronebay slowly repair drones and make it so they cannot be re-launched until fully repaired.

PROS: Makes targetting drones viable, may entice drone ships to use remote repairs, allows for differences to passive dronebay repair rates to reflect better drone ships.

CONS: People need to be very careful when recalling drones. Poor drone AI is already a nuisance - delays for relaunch after repairs could play havoc.

Anything I'm missing here?


With drones only returning to the bay at standard speed in a straight line, a drone under fire is likely to die if you don't fight at blaster range. Also, a webbed drone is a dead drone 90% of the time if you are not close enoght to scoop it immediately. As both large shield transporters and large armor repairers only have 7-9km range, doing as you sggest would dictate the range of drone ships for them, regardless of the range of any ausiliary weapons that the person may be using, unless they see their 2m isk Hammerhead IIs as disposable.

Unrelated to the above, below is a link to a thread I started yesterday in response to all of the whining about overpowered drone ships. Within it is my idea of what I would like to see the drone interface changed to more or less. I added a few more pictures farther down in the thread in addition to the one in the first post. I'd appreciate any feedback that any of you might have regarding the interface, since I'm not sure if it really does look better of if I am just having too much caffiene or something.

Interface Idea

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:33:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 23/11/2006 02:45:33
Originally by: Selnix

With drones only returning to the bay at standard speed in a straight line, a drone under fire is likely to die if you don't fight at blaster range. Also, a webbed drone is a dead drone 90% of the time if you are not close enoght to scoop it immediately. As both large shield transporters and large armor repairers only have 7-9km range, doing as you sggest would dictate the range of drone ships for them, regardless of the range of any ausiliary weapons that the person may be using, unless they see their 2m isk Hammerhead IIs as disposable.



I'm not going to repeat myself, but post 76 of this thread is how I feel about drones and what I would like buffed as drones do really needs fixing. However I just read somewhere that they will not get any more HP or be changed in Revelations due to the scooping/redeploy full shield issue. My above post was my suggestion in response to counter that reason - drone repair bays would at least mean time before damaged drones can be relaunched.

Anyway - valid point about the remote rep range being short, but if your other option was scooping your drone and not being able to use it again for 60 seconds while it repairs in the dronebay then I'm sure you'd see more remote reppers anyway.

Regarding feedback on your interface - I've not read your whole thread yet, but it looks just cosmetically it looks too cluttered with too many options for my taste. Xcom's post on the previous page seems a better 'look' anyway. No offense - Cheers.

Derick Stralen
Posted - 2006.11.23 03:22:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Derick Stralen on 23/11/2006 03:26:35
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

/\/\/\/\

Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


Boy.. Where do I start? I want to use drones as a primary weapon.

For the other weapons you have small, medium, large, and captial. Drones do the same thing, almost. Except for the fact drones are broken, you have small, medium, heavy, and fighters. On the carrier they ARE the primary weapon. On smaller ships you also have that.

Some ships have greater room for drones, and lack the weapon bonuses that most ships have. For these ships the drones play the larger role. However, as previously stated, thier application and implementation in the game is flawed.

Now, I can not speak from personal experience. I am just getting into being a droner. I am speaking on what I read of others experiences, and the little that I do have.

Mostly my issue is - I want to be a droner. Isn't that what EVE is supposed to be about? But- There is a problem. I'm at the point where I'm ready to start skilling for drones, even with thier current limitations. But with Revelations comming, the next major version of the game, and the possibility that drones won't be fixed, I am really concerned.

Bring in to the picture how much I pay to play this. It costs me $$$ to play this.

This is not to say any of the effort in Revelatons isn't appreciated. I am REALLY looking forward to the Gag/Fleet changes. The HP increase has me excited. Scanning improvments have really been needed. But so do drones!

From what Ive read some problems have existed for years! Drones are a major part of the game. Just like Turrets, Missiles, EW, and all the other nuances that mke it fun and variety.

Please address these thingsin Revelations. This is where most of your efforts have been. When else would you, after having had years, finally fix these things?

I want to do drones. More principally, I want the assurance that if I go into a field, I don't enter into it only to find 2-3 months later the field I enetered into is bugged to heck. And most of all, I don't want to wait several more yars forit to be addressed.

DEVs, I beg you, please give sincere, %100 attention to this. Becuase, for the time it will take me to train what I have to train, I would like results.

Ths isn't a post on specifics, becuase those are just a means to an end. This is a post requesting action. I've seen devs more involved in other threads, and this one seem on the low end of the totem pole for some reason. When we can at least get you to decide to take action, I'm faithful that the specifics will be worked out.

baaaaal
Posted - 2006.11.23 04:23:00 - [219]
 

just because you can scoop/deploy drones doesnt mean fighters shouldnt get a hp boost , a carrier can hardly scoop them fast & half the time you dont know there under fire until they start poping

Aphotic Raven
Gallente
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.23 06:08:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Nir
I think Tuxford hasn't touched Heavy Drone HP yet in fear of unbalancing the Dominix. Dominix as is stands is going to be even better in Kali, so any more indirect boosts to it would tip it over the scales. Its a double edged sword, on the one hand nearly everyone uses drones to a greater or lesser extend, so a boost to drone HP seems in order. On the other, the current situation of the Dom having 2k+ HP Ogre IIs is just wrong.

I say lower the HP bonus on droneships from 10% to 5% HP/level. Then increase the HP of all drones and fighters by 50%. That way everyone who can use drones (Every Battleship, BCs and most Cruisers) sees some improvement here and everyone will be happy.

My 2 cents.


Do domi nerfers ever get sick of being stupid... i sometimes wonder.... has anyone ever argued that the domi is in fact balanced given its terrible pg (when contrasted with tier 2 and 3 BS's)
And have you come to the realisation that ECM domis will be at worst nerfed to all hell and at best non existant.

Drones are ****, i use them, i love them, but the AI driving them is terrible to the point of tears...

they need more HP or much more realistic sig radius's.

It has been argued that they always have their MWD on, then why are they so f'ing slow sometimes?

It has been argued that sig radius is to do with the communication signals being sent to the mothership... should we not then get a sig boost for gangs (yes.. nerf fat gank packs.. nerf them i say...)

I dont really care about drone HP or sig radius when compared to the AI. PLEASE devs just decide on the ships and tell everyone to STFU and then fix drones.. they weren't even working last time i was on the test server, its hard to test a myrmidon when its drones wont attack anything for any reason whatsoever.

Hawk Fireblade
Posted - 2006.11.23 08:13:00 - [221]
 

The biggest thing needed for fighters is a saftey net where they redock upon a disco.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.23 11:11:00 - [222]
 

Edited by: Patch86 on 23/11/2006 11:11:07
Originally by: Aphotic Raven
It has been argued that sig radius is to do with the communication signals being sent to the mothership... should we not then get a sig boost for gangs (yes.. nerf fat gank packs.. nerf them i say...)


Heh, that one was me, and I was mostly being whimsical. I was only suggesting a possible fluff as to why Drones are the size of a drive way with the sensor foot print of a football pitch....

In all reality, I think that Drones should have their sig rad reduced, with their total HP left the same. Their HP count should be rebalanced to have more HP in armour than in shields, so that said sig-rad boost doesn't make scooper 'n drop tactics a must (like most drone users, I don't want to have to MWD to blaster range just so I can use my drones- 60 km drone range anyone?).

Probably.

To be completely honest, I think my brain has been scrambled by all this number crunching.............

Sith Vador
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:18:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Sith Vador on 23/11/2006 14:29:46
I think the new hp increase is great for carriers but there are a few things that need to be fixed with fighter drones an the minmatar carrier.

Fighter Drones:
1) They need a HP increase equal to other ships of there size as they are supposed to be. Being that fighters don't get the other drone bonuses they aren't drones an are supposed to be piloted by People per say. If you don't a few BS's could take down a carrier pretty easy by just killing the poor fighter drones.
2) It only makes sence being they don't use the regular drone skills they need there own class of skills. Makes sence right.

Minmatar Carrier:

1) Well to be honest the minmatar carrier is a huge crap of heep compared to all the other carriers. I believe the remote repair bonus (no offence to CCP) the worse bonus ever. Some options to make it somewhat close to it's brothers:
5% Damage 5% Drone Speed per lvl

5% Damage 5% HP per lvl

Or if your stuck on the current bonuses go with this to make it worth somethin. Making it effective in it's job as a support carrier.

10% Reduction in shield & Armor Transfer Duration & Cap Usage per lvl

PS: I think the last option would really make it stand out in supporting other ship in combat. But I'd really like to see the damage an HP bonus.

Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:34:00 - [224]
 

Had a lot of la..euhm..fun last night on the fleet test gang thing. I was in the x-m2 gate camp gang, in my old and only remotely possible drone ship in game, the dominix. I had the only useful drone rigs on (armour repair amount and sentry drone dmg rigs).. 3 drone links and a sensor booster to give me a nice 134km targetting and 117 drone control range, 4 sec lock on BS.

Heh it was rather pathetic. You need to lock, then engage drones. I takes like 7 seconds for the first salvo to hit. I suppose it's faster than missiles. After some motherships dropped in (CCPMasta stands out) I figured I'd go for fighters. First tried sentries, which can't hit for shizzle even with target painters and omnidirectional drone mod on, at 40-80 km, which is usually great stuff.

Ofcourse I didn't just have sentries, it's a domi: first I sent in my medium drones (loverly t2's, with BS lvl 4, so kinda buffed) .. and after a few smart bombs on the way those were gone (nice mothership setup to kill drones).. They got of one salvo. The light drones lasted to get of a full 10 seconds of shooting, but got SB-ed too .. Not having offensive guns I figured I'd just drop a bunch of sentries and go nos someone (the Nyx ofcourse) and get his fighters as he was recalling them. With my large SB >:). Worked well enough to get noticed and 30 fighters took my domi to the next level.. fast..

So I fitted a nanophoon with small lasers and heavy nos. Orbit a Nyx, nos and mwd and get 40 fighters on you which are helpless. If i could use missiles (tech 2 pref) a bunch of heavy assault/heavy/light missiles would have exterminated those fighters one by one. As it was I used light t2 drones and small lasers to do it.

Drones need a hp boost, smart bombs are excellent drone killers, so are drones, not to mention missiles.

Kaden Seer
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:36:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Keitaro Baka
Drones need a hp boost, smart bombs are excellent drone killers, so are drones, not to mention missiles.
Agreed.

Turtla
U Itachi
Posted - 2006.11.24 09:26:00 - [226]
 

Remind me not to use fighters unless it's to hunt NPC.

Now they are way to easy to kill for the time it takes them to kill a BS.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 18:17:00 - [227]
 

ya the only use carriers will be now is with a shoot me sticker on the back, while all the kos will just wait for you to launch fighters so they can laugh at you when they insta pop them, they do not do enough dmg to justify using them in a fleet, as poping them does more dmg to the wallet then shooting at a frig/ceptor/cruiser

im quite disappointed with the fact that they could not fix drones in this patch… its very pathetic, this wav of patch is supposed to fix things as they had promised, but such issues as this its pathetic… couldn’t they fix the mwd issue? And the disconnect issue of fighters? How about the fact that they simply can not hit small targets at all? Or let the carrier pilots get bonus from the drone skills

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.24 18:22:00 - [228]
 

also when i went on test server i was shocked to see the bug of initial launch of drones/fighters in a carrier that creates client side lag massive one... makes you go into a slide show....

it takes some time to select any other object in your overview, its a simple bug that is causing this massive lag and the solution is obviously selecting any other object on your screen, as for some reason when you launch drones/fighters one of the drones fighters is randomly selected and thus is causing some major lag for unknown reasons.


Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.25 01:40:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Patch Notes
Ship, module, weapon, ammunition and drone balancing for improved Player versus Player and Player versus Environment experiences.


Anyone have any idea what this might actually be? Have Drone stats changed at all? (say, HP or Sig Rad?).

If not, it would appear Drones missed the Kali 1 boat, seeing as this is the last few days running up to deployment.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.25 04:27:00 - [230]
 

Here are the changes to drones -

  • Fighters will shut down their microwarpdrives at the proper distance from their targets.
  • The drone control unit description now displays a CPU reduction bonus for Motherships and Carriers
  • Mining drones now display their tech level.

Rock on! ugh

Blackest Sheep
Sensaten
Posted - 2006.11.25 09:06:00 - [231]
 

The last few fights on sisi my drones returned to the drone bay at once when ordered. The mwd'ed back to the ship all the way. No flying there to collect them, no waiting for ages.

Luck? Or a change?

hankey
Minmatar
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.11.25 11:37:00 - [232]
 

/signed
Drones should get damage bonus, because all ships now got more HP, and shields tank will leave forever even with 5 T2 heavy against tanked ship.

Galazar
EnMass
Posted - 2006.11.25 11:47:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Blackest Sheep
The last few fights on sisi my drones returned to the drone bay at once when ordered. The mwd'ed back to the ship all the way. No flying there to collect them, no waiting for ages.

Luck? Or a change?


"Fighters will shut down their microwarpdrives at the proper distance from their targets."

Im guessing this includes the return flight, as in they also dont shut off their MWD's until they actually reach you...the above statement probably covers a few minor but conciderable changes as well...

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.25 13:19:00 - [234]
 

Evil or Very MadOnce again - a new patch with NOTHING for us drone users and lots of things for turret and missile users..

Oh ffs #¤%#/%(#%

when will you stop ignoring us and actually concentrate on drones CCP? Give it a f.. min and you know what to fix !

Its ALLWAYS the turret ans missiles! If their missiles changed targets, if their turrets wouldnt react when you tell them to shoot, if it was possible to shoot their torrets - YOU WOULD GOT DAMN FIX IT INSTANTLY -

eeek, my brain is melting

Felxia
SkottE Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.25 14:53:00 - [235]
 

not signed.

I'll sign it when carriers have to show themselves i nbattle instead of assigning drones to frigs to go around a pwn everything...

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:02:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Felxia
not signed.

I'll sign it when carriers have to show themselves i nbattle instead of assigning drones to frigs to go around a pwn everything...


Which would defeat the entire function of a carrier in combat. Carriers are not front line support (even though some use it as such, and to the I say rock on space cowboys, rock on) they are designed for rear support with fighters.

Denga Vulture
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:03:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


/Signed. I still hope for the HP bonus ... how about a simple increasing of Drone durability ?

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:17:00 - [238]
 

I just found something nice looking through the rigs...

There is a rig called "Sentry Damage Augmentor I" That increases sentry damage 10%. It's the only damage increasing drone rig though.

Teylas
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:20:00 - [239]
 

Did CCP fixed drones? I mean that bug when you send drones at target 40+km away from you and those stupid buggers started returning or changing target after flying 70% way???

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.25 19:08:00 - [240]
 

Edited by: FawKa on 25/11/2006 19:13:17
Originally by: Tribunal
I just found something nice looking through the rigs...

There is a rig called "Sentry Damage Augmentor I" That increases sentry damage 10%. It's the only damage increasing drone rig though.


It doesnt change anything.
While the gunners can fit dmg modules and bonus repping rigs we have to fit drone dmg rigs and no repping bonus modules (as there is non). We have no drone dmg modules so if we want dmg to drones we have to use the rigs right? Which you cant really do as it will get as basic to have a cap booster fitted now in RMR than to have those bonus repping rigs fitted in Kali.
so where the f.. are the dmg drones mods?

There was drone dmg modules but the Moros got uber so the deleted those again. Why cant we just make em highslot modules? Will take some NOS power from domies, the moros wont fit it as theres not much highslots tbh.

Anyways, fix before feature.. so lets talk about features in about 5 years time

Edit:
didnt make my point clear as I am getting angry. I pay for this game to and have been for years, but my drones are still f..'d and they keep improving turrets!!! eeek!


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