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Sadist
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.06 13:13:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Tux has been considering it, I wouldn't be surprised if he improves drones a bit, but we're still looking at playtesting feedback from Singularity in general before doing any major updates.


You mean listenting to all the caldari whiners that don't like to let go of their iwin buttons?

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2006.11.06 14:35:00 - [122]
 

The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.06 14:59:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


I agree with he has to say

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.06 15:30:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


Pretty much sums it up. /signed

Kaden Seer
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.06 16:16:00 - [125]
 

Yes.

Young DrPhil
Caldari
Blood Red Dawn
Posted - 2006.11.06 16:31:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


SIGNED,SIGNED,SIGNED,SIGNED,SIGNED,SIGNED/

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2006.11.06 17:03:00 - [127]
 

/Signed

- A more complete and coherant version of what I said earlier in the topic! Good job!

Mokojn
The Angeleyes
Posted - 2006.11.06 18:57:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).




Perfect, I agree with everything here. This sums up the majority of the problems and it seems clear no developers care for drones. We are nowhere near as powerful as turret users. We should be matched.

Serendipity007
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.06 20:43:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Serendipity007 on 06/11/2006 20:46:20
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


I agree wholeheartedly. Sums up the drone problems quite well.
I would LOVE to see buttons in the drone list similar to those that are in the new gang list. The "I need Cap" type buttons. Those would be absolutely perfect to put a "Attack Target" or "Defend Me" or "Defend Target" or "Hold Position" or even all of them!

Oh, and I absolutely LOVE the idea of a "Bomber" type fighter. Make it slow but powerful, and only good against other Cap Ships.

Please fix the drones/fighters! They are a big part of what sets EvE apart from other space sims.

Vitalunus
Posted - 2006.11.06 22:16:00 - [130]
 

Signedł

We need more t2 bpos if i lose my berserkers t2 and hammers t2 and ogre t2 in impass i dont have where to buy new drones.

Nihilion Saro
Gallente
Stray Cats Social Club
Posted - 2006.11.06 22:28:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Nihilion Saro on 06/11/2006 22:30:32
HOLY FRIGGIN' SIGNED, BATMAN!!! I could not agree more. Drones need a little TLC to remain a viable weapons system.

And nerfing them out of the game would really, imho, be a tragic loss. Not only are they a truly unique style of combat, but they give a fighting chance to us players not blessed with 25 perception and 23 Willpower. Diversity of game play is a good thing.

Lastly, I want to revisit the RMR math that was supposed to allow 5 drones to do as much damage as a fully decked out pre-RMR dominix...

- previously, domi could deploy 15 drones. After RMR only 5.

- Drone interfacing skill at 5 (20% per lev) gives 100% bonus, or doubles drone damage. This makes 5 drones equal to 10.

- Battleships skill used to allow domi to deploy 1 drone per level.
Therefore, the drone damage/hp bonus of the battleships skill should also be 20%, allowing the 5 remaining drones to gain the power of an additional 5 drones (at lvl 5).

Battleships skill bonus (5 * 20% = 100%)
Drone interfacing skill (5 * 20% = 100%)
__________________________________________
total bonus is 200%, or 3 times base damage

The way it is now (10% bonus per bs lvl), results in the equivelent damage of 12.5 drones. Am I right here?

I would be happy if someone made sure my (simple) math and understanding that the bs bonus on the domi prior to RMR was +1 deployable drone (I'm actually not completely sure about that because I didn't play then).

Nihilion Saro

Nizdaar
Gallente
Digital Fury Corporation
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.11.06 22:28:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


Agreed.

If anyone is bored and wants to be amused, load up 5 x drone navigation computers, warrior drones and a jet can. Sick the warriors on the jetcan and watch as they flail about, never hitting it.

They approach the can at roughly 15km/sec though!

A way to make drones hot just like weapons would be nice. Nothing is worse than when in a laggy fight you have to wait extra time for the lock, then extra time for your drones to move.

Sally
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.07 00:47:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Nihilion Saro

- previously, domi could deploy 15 drones. After RMR only 5.

Therefore, the drone damage/hp bonus of the battleships skill should also be 20%, allowing the 5 3 times base damage

The way it is now (10% bonus per bs lvl), results in the equivelent damage of 12.5 drones. Am I right here?

I would be happy if someone made sure my (simple) math and understanding that the bs bonus on the domi prior to RMR was +1 deployable drone (I'm actually not completely sure about that because I didn't play then).

Nihilion Saro


Watch the hands:
Before RMR: Domi could deploy 15 drones, each drone could do say 20 DPS = 300 DPS.
After RMR: Domi could deploy 5 drones, each drone do 2*1.5 = 3 times pre-RMR damage = 300 DPS. Got it?

Nihilion Saro
Gallente
Stray Cats Social Club
Posted - 2006.11.07 05:49:00 - [134]
 

So are the skill bonuses compounded, or are they just totaled and that calculated? I mean, you have a 100% (2x) bonus with drone interfacing, and a 50% (1.5x) bonus for battleships...

So is it calculated like this: x = base damage

x * 2 * 1.5 = 3x

or is it

100%+50% (2.5x)

??

Triss S'Jet
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.07 12:55:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


/SIGNED

Devs read this post please!!

Matori Kar
Caldari
SlightlyAnnoyingGitCorp
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:47:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


/SIGNED

Kirive
Gallente
Infinitus Odium
Curse Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 13:58:00 - [137]
 

Incidentally, can you guys please fix the Hammerhead I and Hobgoblin II models? They've had the wrong model ever since i reactivated my account months ago - should be a simple thing to fix.

DrAtomic
Atomic Heroes
Chain of Chaos
Posted - 2006.11.07 14:44:00 - [138]
 

Great list of the current drone issues; also would be nice to see how much damage your drones are doing...

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.07 16:10:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Kirive
Incidentally, can you guys please fix the Hammerhead I and Hobgoblin II models? They've had the wrong model ever since i reactivated my account months ago - should be a simple thing to fix.


Extremely seconded. This one little thing probably ****es me off more than any of the other 100's of bugs.

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2006.11.07 18:37:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 07/11/2006 18:40:40
Apparently my post resonated with other drone users. I've posted somewhat like this before on these forums. Unfortunately, requests for 'drone-love' never seems to resonate with CCP. Even in this thread we've got what we always get: "We sure would like to do something but we're really too busy doing other stuff right now."

I can't help but feel that drones will always be on the bottom of the list. Maybe CCP don't like drones, maybe they don't use them themselves. As said above, this is a shame. The ability to use drones as a weapon makes EVE pretty unique among space-games and even in the state it is now, it has great potential.

Frankly I don't understand it. Things like the model mix-up between the hammerhead and hobgoblin sure aren't game breakers, but they surely are very easy to fix and have been in-game for ages. I recognise that the combination of two complex dynamic algorithms (evasion- and flock-algorithm) is difficult to get right 100% of the time, but, again, the effect on drones have been in-game, well-described, and much whined over for ages. And make no mistake, that problem is a game breaker for drone users.

I personally don't like to whine but maybe that is the problem here. Either drone users have given up on expecting changes and just bash on regardless (like I do), or, maybe more likely, drone users have given up on drones and have joined the legions of missile spammers.

At any rate, whenever I see a lot of attention on a subject on the forums (some may call it whinage), CCP reacts to that and things happen. Maybe all drone users should come together as well and draw some attention to the drone problems. Maybe then something will happen as well.

I'm sure at a loss of what else to do.

Aki Yamato
Posted - 2006.11.07 20:34:00 - [141]
 

Im not going to flaming about drones HP etc, but i thing drones could recive another kind of upgrade.
For example formations. Currect chaostic movement of drones looks wierd for me, I rather see drones/ fighters fly in formations like fighters i H2 do. There could be many different formations each beoosting or reducing som of drone capabilities as speed, attack, defence, jamm... You know what i mean, attack formation increase attack and decrease defence...

Drone flight formation could be handled as one flying object insted of many (reduce lag).


Jennie moo
Gallente
Grave Raiders Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.08 01:57:00 - [142]
 

Drones Yes! Fighters yes. Allso fighter drones should have some kind of shield or Armor booster.. After all they are not like normal drones > Single-pilot combat vessels, deployable from carriers and motherships.

Pan Crastus
Anti-Metagaming League
Posted - 2006.11.08 03:03:00 - [143]
 

What I miss most is that you still can't see the drones' real stats after skills/modules anywhere (using "show info").


lpha centurion
Confrerie des ombres
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.08 05:44:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).




/Signed !!!! Very Happy


Admiral Pieg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.08 15:36:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
The problem isn't with Caldari I-Win buttons, it is, instead, with the broken implementation of drones and with their coming extra vulnerability in Kali. I hope we can keep Caldari bashing out of this thread.

Drones are the only weapon system that can be permanently disabled in a fight. No turret or missile has this disadvantage.

This is made worse by the fact that the main advantage of drones, the ability to retreat them from the fight, is buggily implemented, making taking advantage of this a dangerous proposal.

Furthermore, a buggy implementation of the way T2 BPOs are distributed means that the cost of the T2 drones is exorbitatantly high when compared to other weapon system (a T2 Hammerhead costing more then some frigates!), so if a drone is lost, this is quite a financial blow to the user, similar to losing a T2 turret or missile launcher.

With the longer fights in Kali, targeting and popping drones will become a viable strategy. Just check what happened in the long engagement in the last tournament. This wasn't so much the case before because of the short engagement times.

I suggest the following remedies to be implemented before Kali release/HP increase:

  • Up the HP of drones proportional to the HP of ships, preferably by the same amount and preferably the shield HP as well (at least some increase);

  • Change the signature radius of drones to the ones I specified in an earlier post in this thread (heavy drones with the signature radius of cruisers is ridiculous);

  • Have the drones return to cargo-bay using their MWD and revise the flocking algorithm of drones in such a way that they do no longer 'cling' to each-other (having observed this behaviour too many times, I am certain it is a borked flocking algorithm that produces this);

  • Reduce the time needed to lock onto your own drones, preferably to zero (this allows a drone user to support its own drones);

  • Allow support drones to target the parent vehicle (the idea that a shield support drone can help someone else but not the parent is just plain silly), related: allow me to support gang-members with support drones without getting shot by Concord would also by nice;

  • Revise the drone targeting algorithm so that they will all attack the same target, will no long forget targets, and will take into account their own tracking ranges modified by the user's skills (all these a bugs and nothing less, also decreasing DPS by increasing skill does not make any sense); and

  • Revise the drone part of the overview in such a way that:

    • It shows at least the armour left of drones in dronebay;

    • It shows the actual attributes of the drones as affected by skills; and

    • It is easier to use or allows for more flexibility (can you say hotkeys?).


Most of these remedies are simply bugs that haven't been addressed (for years!) and bork drone specialists and to a certain extend the Gallente race. The drone fix some months ago was a good start but not nearly enough.

Some love for the drones is long overdue.


excellent post, sums it up nicely. Listen to this guy ccp

Mothmar Friedsquid
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.08 18:22:00 - [146]
 

I agree with the statements made, but have one qualm:

Drones just getting blanket increases as requested are going to be more powerful and not require any slots. I'd personally like a more varied and powerful set of mods available for drones on a lot of the stuff mentioned, and a small increase in the base power of drones. But asking for ALL of it kinda asks for the nerf bat to come out in a few months.

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2006.11.08 18:34:00 - [147]
 

Quote:
Apparently my post resonated with other drone users. I've posted somewhat like this before on these forums. Unfortunately, requests for 'drone-love' never seems to resonate with CCP. Even in this thread we've got what we always get: "We sure would like to do something but we're really too busy doing other stuff right now."

Of course it resonates with drone users. Now go see if it resonates with non-drone users. I think the answer would be a big no! And of course CCP have ignored requests for "drone-love". Drone ships have been ridiculously overpowered since RMR.

You've basically just given us a huge long list of ways to make drone ships virtually indestructible. Increase HP AND decrease sig radius??? Instant-target lock so you can remote rep them with ease? How exactly would a battleship ever destroy a drone?

And the drones ability to be destroyed is one of their only disadvantages in 1 v 1 pvp. They have no fitting requirements. They have insane tracking. They take up no cap.

Can't you see the huge advantages drones give? Now I personally like these advantages (I'm a drone user). I think they are a really neat weapon system, but I also know that the advantages have to be weighed out by disadvantages.

Now, certainly, some of the things on your list should be looked at. Repairing the bugs which effect drones is a big yes.

But tell me, why exactly should I be able to lock my own drone to repair it faster than my opponent can lock it to destroy it? To do so makes it much easier for me to defend than for him to attack.

Then tell me why exactly I should be able to fly my drones around with impunity (smartbombs notwithstanding) while I use ALL my cap and fittings for tank, while my opponent divides his capacitor and fittings between defence and attack, always running a risk of running out in one area or another?

Why exactly should I be able to fit drones which can kill almost anything in EVE (5 heavies for bs and cruisers and then 5 lights for ceptors and frigs) but my opponent has to fit what, a horribly-gimped-against-anything-else smartbomb setup to beat me? Why do I get to wander around EVE pwning all when every other ship has to choose its fights? And how can you even think of increasing my tanking capabilities even more by allowing me to have a huge tank on my Dom PLUS armor repairing drones adding to my power?

Now... the answer to this, I think, is that its silly not to. Drones are small, therefore they should have a small sig. If a Drone can target any other ship to repair it, it could easily target its parent ship. If a Drone "wants" to allow itself to be targetted, so as to be repaired, it would be easy to put a permanent homing interface in.

This is all perfectly true.

But it would horribly unbalance the game, making drone ships horribly overpowered. So let's just accept that this game is FANTASY. As one poster mentioned recently, we've even worked out how to make sound travel in space!

So stop trying to make it make perfect logical sense and instead, look to making it balanced and fun!

lpha centurion
Confrerie des ombres
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.08 19:57:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: lpha centurion on 08/11/2006 20:00:51
Edited by: lpha centurion on 08/11/2006 20:00:11
Edited by: lpha centurion on 08/11/2006 19:58:35
(first i'm sorry but i have some difficulties to speak english : i'm a french gamer ^_^)

I don't think that drones are so powerful,
Compare a battle between a raven with cruises missiles and a dominix with heavy drones.

I think that the winner will probably be the raven, why ?
=> The drones can be destroyed.

And other example, when you are on a lvl4 mission. If your drones are locked by the npc, they will be probably destroyed because they are slow. I don't think that missiles (ok there are defender but it's different), lasers and hybrid can be destroyed Laughing

So there are differents way :
-> Increasing the drone speed
-> Increasing their HP
-> Increasing their damage

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2006.11.08 21:24:00 - [149]
 

Well, Jasai Kameron, you make a number of interesting points, allow me to reply:

  • In increasing the HP and reducing the signature radius, a certain balance should be found, I agree. I'm not advocating making drones indestructable. Although that would be popular with drone users no doubt, that would unbalance the game, thus inviting a good swing of the nerfbat. But since we're all testing on Sisi, why don't we start with a reduction in the signature radius (for which there is some solid argument) and work from there? I'm of the opinion that drones now are too vulnerable, and it is plain to see that with the HP increase, something needs to be done for drones and especially fighters.

  • You take it that with an insta-lock on drones, they will become indestructable. I beg to differ. Remote armour reppers have long cycles, take a high slot with decent requirements (which gimps your setup for other purposes) and have limited range. These things combine to give any opponent a number of options to counter drones (they have them now already in fact), the most important being: range (from the mothership, not the drone). An opponent keeping out of range while attacking the drones means no remote repair for the drones. Also, given the DPS of most ships out there (especially PvP ships), compared to the HP of drones (even when increased) means that it will still be difficult to maintain drones in the field. Also, remember that to be repaired while out of range also means that the drone user has to pull them out of the fight, losing DPS (which with drones isn't very high to begin with). Insta-lock on drones only increases the chance that drones can be maintained, but only under specific circumstances, most notably the ones under which most drones prefer not to fight (close range). I don't think we're talking I-WIN button here.

  • You claim the suggested changes means only smartbombs can kill drones. Nothing is further from the truth. The suggested changes do not invalidate any of the options open to players now. Missiles still always hit, target painters still work, webbers are still useful to slaughter drones. And with the longer engagement times as a result of HP increase, opponents will have time to use all these options. The suggested changes do boost drones, I do not denying that, but it is a boost desperately needed in light of the HP increase, and in my opinion long overdue.

  • You mention that when drones can be used to boost shields or armour on the mothership, this will make drone users' ships indestructable. I think I've already covered the destructability of drones above, so I limit myself to the following two remarks:

    • this is an option open to the opponent as well. Many ships have at least some sort of drone bay; and

    • every drone engaged in 'healing' isn't attacking and thus not contributing to DPS, gimping your attack.


    The self repair for drones is a double edged sword. Sure, it gives drone boats some extra flexibility in defense, but it comes at a great cost, lost of offensive capability. I think this is great actually, it gives the player options to balance out.


This game maybe fantasy, but the fantastic fact remains that the weaponsystem drones has both the least DPS and the buggiest implementation of all while providing the least rewards for the biggest risks. I think CCP wants to keep the DPS of drones the way it is, so can we then have a better implementation and a bit more flexibility?

Common, you know it makes sense Wink

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2006.11.08 21:56:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 08/11/2006 21:58:04
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

This game maybe fantasy, but the fantastic fact remains that the weaponsystem drones has both the least DPS and the buggiest implementation of all while providing the least rewards for the biggest risks. I think CCP wants to keep the DPS of drones the way it is, so can we then have a better implementation and a bit more flexibility?

Common, you know it makes sense Wink

*laughs* Well... it would certainly be nice. I completely agree that the bugs should be removed and, like you, I'd prefer a sig radius reduction to an hp bonus, at least to begin with. It makes more sense given the size of drones. And I further agree that one needs to apply changes slowly, working from the results that one gets.

I just think you underestimate drones a little. The fact that one can put all ones pg and cpu towards tank or EW on a dedicated drone ship and the fact that one doesn't have to worry about capacitor or tracking are really huge advantages.

Try flying a blasterthron in combat and worrying constantly about capacitor and capacitor boooters and tracking and transversal velocity and normal velocity and sig radius and... who knows what else. The Dom far outclasses the Blasterthron in 1 v 1 even though it's DPS is far lower, due to the fact that it's tank can be so powerful and it never has to worry about running out of cap. Admittedly EW and Nosf have played a huge part and there will be nerfs coming along for those, but I honestly just think that this brings the Dominix et al in line with other ships, rather than weakening them completely.

I feel that increasing hp AND decreasing sig radius to the levels you suggested would be a mistake. Would a bs turret even be able to hit a heavy drone with the sig radius you proposed?


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