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Nihilion Saro
Gallente
Stray Cats Social Club
Posted - 2006.10.30 21:41:00 - [91]
 

Mothmar, actually I never even noticed the sig radius was that big. You're right. It doesn't make sense at all, considering that even a heavy drone only occupies 25m3 of space. Quite insignificant compared to an assembled frigate. I don't know how much that is, but when I stick packaged Atrons in my indy they take up 2500.

IMHO, drones are dangerously close to becoming a non-viable weapons platform.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 21:57:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Mothmar Friedsquid
Odd that noone really complains about drone signatures being so bloody huge except me. How is it that you can stuff a full capsule, all the life support systems it needs, a warp drive, and 160M^3 of cargo in a frigate and it doesn't give off as much of a heat signature as a blaster with an AI in it?


I don't want to go into the mechanics balancing thing (because I don't feel like number crunching). But, if you want a fluff reason:

Drones are remote controlled by computers and / or crew men aboard the control ship. The drone and it's conroller must be in continuous radio contact the whole time it's in space. The communications signal emmanating from the drone gives it a large sensor footprint. In other words, it's constant radio chatter with the control ship lights it up like a light bulb- thus, big sig-rad.

GrumpyCat
Republic University
Posted - 2006.10.30 23:49:00 - [93]
 

Fighters: Sure boost their hp
Drones: Nope, they have decent hp as it is

Drones should slowly repair their armour and you also be able to move drones from cargo to drone bay if your cap is at 100% and have no modules activated.

Scylla V
R E D E M P T I O N
Black Star Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 00:13:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Mothmar Friedsquid
Odd that noone really complains about drone signatures being so bloody huge except me. How is it that you can stuff a full capsule, all the life support systems it needs, a warp drive, and 160M^3 of cargo in a frigate and it doesn't give off as much of a heat signature as a blaster with an AI in it?


I don't want to go into the mechanics balancing thing (because I don't feel like number crunching). But, if you want a fluff reason:

Drones are remote controlled by computers and / or crew men aboard the control ship. The drone and it's conroller must be in continuous radio contact the whole time it's in space. The communications signal emmanating from the drone gives it a large sensor footprint. In other words, it's constant radio chatter with the control ship lights it up like a light bulb- thus, big sig-rad.


What constant radio chatter ? They really don't listen very well at all.

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.31 00:33:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Scylla V
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Mothmar Friedsquid
Odd that noone really complains about drone signatures being so bloody huge except me. How is it that you can stuff a full capsule, all the life support systems it needs, a warp drive, and 160M^3 of cargo in a frigate and it doesn't give off as much of a heat signature as a blaster with an AI in it?


I don't want to go into the mechanics balancing thing (because I don't feel like number crunching). But, if you want a fluff reason:

Drones are remote controlled by computers and / or crew men aboard the control ship. The drone and it's conroller must be in continuous radio contact the whole time it's in space. The communications signal emmanating from the drone gives it a large sensor footprint. In other words, it's constant radio chatter with the control ship lights it up like a light bulb- thus, big sig-rad.


What constant radio chatter ? They really don't listen very well at all.


Fair point.......maybe theres a lot of static, and a whole lot of "Attack the thorax!" "Huh?" "The Thorax! Attack the thorax!" "What? Something abouth Thought Tax?" "THE CRUISER! SHOOT THE CRUISER!" "Hey, Hammerhead #4, do we get FM radio on this thing?".

Suffer Baby
Posted - 2006.10.31 11:19:00 - [96]
 

Ok this may be a little off topic but having started reading this thread I noticed a "what am i listening to" link.

I selected the link, LOL has anyone else modeled their ingame look by using a mirror like Ithildin (follow his link to see what i mean)?


Triss S'Jet
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.31 12:36:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Triss S''Jet on 31/10/2006 12:36:47
/signed

I mean come on, if your enemy knows what he is doing, drones have absolutely no chance of surviving during longer fights, they need a HP boost!

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2006.10.31 23:26:00 - [98]
 

Fighters need 2 things currently. I won't comment yet upon what they need for Kali, though some more HP does seem reasonable. They aren't exactly cheap.

1) The ability to tell them NOT to warp after a target. The majority of time that I use my carrier in combat now, they're just baited off to a safespotted enemy on fighter-killing detail, or lead to a POS where they sit outside the shield and get picked apart. Just give me an option to toggle their warp capability for the love of God. Half the time I have to use heavy drones in combat simply because when a hostile warps out, I don't lose all my firepower.

2) The MWD-orbit bug. When a Fighter goes after a target, it drops into orbit around the target and continues to MWD for a short period of time, during which it totally nerfs its ability to track the target. In short, it ends up moving too fast for its own guns to track. After several seconds they slow down enough for this to be resolved, but it's a lot of lost DPS.

Kloro Draz
Gallente
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
Posted - 2006.11.01 01:54:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Cosmic Flame
Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 30/10/2006 19:08:07
Good point.

If a drone ship crashes, then the drones should also dissappear or something and remain in the player's control when he logs back on. Before with cheap T1 drones it wasn't such a big loss but now... with fighters and T2 drones it's a big issue. You lose connection or the node crashes and bye bye tens if not hundreds of millions worth of drones. It's not fair.


On the subject of drones ... why are there no named drones?

Part of the reason t2 drones cost so much is that there is nothing "almost as good" that drops from rats. Heck, if balancing is such a big issue, have some rats drop t2 rather than t1 drones.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:49:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Kloro Draz
Originally by: Cosmic Flame
Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 30/10/2006 19:08:07
Good point.

If a drone ship crashes, then the drones should also dissappear or something and remain in the player's control when he logs back on. Before with cheap T1 drones it wasn't such a big loss but now... with fighters and T2 drones it's a big issue. You lose connection or the node crashes and bye bye tens if not hundreds of millions worth of drones. It's not fair.


On the subject of drones ... why are there no named drones?

Part of the reason t2 drones cost so much is that there is nothing "almost as good" that drops from rats. Heck, if balancing is such a big issue, have some rats drop t2 rather than t1 drones.



There needs to be faction drones: Shadow Serpentis Hammerheads- all black with green lights. YARRRR!! Stuff like that.

Maverick McDougel
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.02 09:06:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Kloro Draz
Originally by: Cosmic Flame
Edited by: Cosmic Flame on 30/10/2006 19:08:07
Good point.

If a drone ship crashes, then the drones should also dissappear or something and remain in the player's control when he logs back on. Before with cheap T1 drones it wasn't such a big loss but now... with fighters and T2 drones it's a big issue. You lose connection or the node crashes and bye bye tens if not hundreds of millions worth of drones. It's not fair.


On the subject of drones ... why are there no named drones?

Part of the reason t2 drones cost so much is that there is nothing "almost as good" that drops from rats. Heck, if balancing is such a big issue, have some rats drop t2 rather than t1 drones.



There needs to be faction drones: Shadow Serpentis Hammerheads- all black with green lights. YARRRR!! Stuff like that.


please make those rouge drones have officer or faction spawns that drop officer or faction drone bpc's. me love you long time if you do. or even have them drop stuff like 1-3 run harvester drone bpc's or something unique like that.

Mokojn
The Angeleyes
Posted - 2006.11.02 19:18:00 - [102]
 

While I know it's pointless to add 'me too' I agree with this. I have 50% of my skillpoints invested in drones, and they are incredibly fragile, hard to replace in certain areas and ineffective in many ways (why can't drones WMD back. Why won't anyone address that issue?!)

Please, developers, at least think about addressing this. Don't promise to do anything, but confirm you're aware of our concerns at least.

Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2006.11.02 20:21:00 - [103]
 

A few suggestions....

1 - Decrease drone sig. It was already mentioned that it's 4x bigger than a frig... kinda rediculous.
2 - With sig decreased an hp increase would probably not be necessary.
3 - Make smart bombs the drone deterrent (ie. make smart bombs better).
4 - Increase the range of remote reppers by A LOT. ATM they're useless for repping drones.
5 - And this is the most important.... FIX THE GD DRONES SO THEY RETURN WHEN TOLD! I've lost soooo many tech2 drones lately because of this bug. Sure if you're sitting still they're return to bay, but if they try to dock from behind while you're moving, forget it.

Russo
The Inf1dels
B O R G
Posted - 2006.11.03 06:44:00 - [104]
 

Something that needs dire attention is fighters need to MWD BACK TO THE CARRIER. They are VERY SLOWWWWWWW. And its 20mil to lose one of them. I have better things to do in eve than generate isk in a time sink just to replace your brain dead fighters.


hitech redneck
Digital Mind Crimes
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:32:00 - [105]
 

I guess this is another issue that is going to be ignored by ccp. No lack of reply from the dev's does not give us players much hope.

Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente
Ixion Defence Systems
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:14:00 - [106]
 

/signed
Drones need either a good reduction of their sig radius or a generous HP boost. Or the combination of both to a smaller effect each.

As for the people saying that is viable to call the drones back in bay (while they are at 45 Km away) and survive, i wish that was the case but it's not.

Rigsta
Gallente
Raddick Explorations
BlackWater.
Posted - 2006.11.04 00:09:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Rigsta on 04/11/2006 00:14:04
Edited by: Rigsta on 04/11/2006 00:12:10
Quote:
for me is a nono Razz

why?

simple, hps improvement on ship improve the defensive compartment of a ship and is designed to make battle last longer...

drone instead are a weapon/utility, to improve their hps will be like to improve their general efficency... to do a crappy example it could be like to reduce cap usage for lasers or cap consumption for damps...

as drones are alredy very efficent with good damage, full damage choice, ability to hit while droneboat is jammed, less speed problem than normal weapons, not linked to droneboat speed... i think such change is a bit out of place, expecially considering that the only real cons of drone is the fact that they can be destroyed.


And they have to be scooped before warping. Doesn't sound so bad? Well, try being in a fleet or gang where you have to move, or just wait 30 seconds before warping anywhere after a battle (depending on range). Shields do indeed represent 30% or less of a drone's HP, and have to be all but stationary to scoop them. I usually scoop drones to break the opponent's lock on them rather than repair their shields, that's just a nice bonus.


If the drone HP stays as it currently is, destroying your opponent's drones is a non-brainer decision. If it's changed to be in line with the ships then it's one you have to consider (just like it is on TQ right now).

Then consider cost. If drones cost about as much as ammo I wouln't mind losing them for stupid reasons so much. Yes, T2 drones. If I have to bug out and leave my drones it feels like I lost my wallet in the rush :(

FawKa
Gallente
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.11.04 12:01:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Fighters need 2 things currently. I won't comment yet upon what they need for Kali, though some more HP does seem reasonable. They aren't exactly cheap.

1) The ability to tell them NOT to warp after a target. The majority of time that I use my carrier in combat now, they're just baited off to a safespotted enemy on fighter-killing detail, or lead to a POS where they sit outside the shield and get picked apart. Just give me an option to toggle their warp capability for the love of God. Half the time I have to use heavy drones in combat simply because when a hostile warps out, I don't lose all my firepower.

2) The MWD-orbit bug. When a Fighter goes after a target, it drops into orbit around the target and continues to MWD for a short period of time, during which it totally nerfs its ability to track the target. In short, it ends up moving too fast for its own guns to track. After several seconds they slow down enough for this to be resolved, but it's a lot of lost DPS.


^^ YES PLEASE !!!

And where is our dear devs? Allways in the turrent threads I guess.. Neutral

CCP Oveur

Posted - 2006.11.04 14:48:00 - [109]
 

Tux has been considering it, I wouldn't be surprised if he improves drones a bit, but we're still looking at playtesting feedback from Singularity in general before doing any major updates.

Ihar Enda
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.04 15:53:00 - [110]
 

Yes, drone hp boost is much needed in the light of ship hp boost, so please go ahead and do it Smile

Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.05 00:34:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Oveur
Tux has been considering it, I wouldn't be surprised if he improves drones a bit, but we're still looking at playtesting feedback from Singularity in general before doing any major updates.


Aw, you had to go and prove me wrong by replying, didn't you!

Good to know its being looked into. Judging by what I'm hearing from people on the test server, drones are gonna need said boost. Myrmidon is a nightmare to fly, with its drones getting popped, and Vexor isn't fairing much better either.

Jasai Kameron
Hakata Group
Blade.
Posted - 2006.11.05 17:05:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 05/11/2006 17:06:40
Originally by: Nihilion Saro
CCP, if you want a Dominix to do the same damage with 5 drones it used to do with 15 (before RMR), the battleships skill drone damage/HP bonus should be 20%, not 10.

Please change this along with the increase in drone/fighter HP so drone ships will remain a viable platform. You're cutting it pretty close... especially if you nerf NOS and neuts, as i've heard some speculation of.


This is missing the effect of the Drone Interfacing skill. At the moment, Drone Interfacing gives a 20% boost per level. So five drones x 100% (assuming the skill to level 5) gives you the equivalent of ten drones in damage and hp. Then add the Dom's ship bonus - 10% per level - so that's a 50% increase on the already boosted damage and hp, giving you the equivalent of fifteen drones.

Least, I think that's how it works! Smile

'course, one could argue that it should be the other way round, with the ship bonus being 20% and the interfacing bonus being 10%, but I quite like it this way. I think drones should be skill intensive to be good, just like every other weapon. (I've just finished gal bs to level 5 and have 3 weeks left for drone interfacing to level 5. Very Happy)

I agree that hp should be increased, but failing that, I think we'll see sensor dampeners replace ecm on many Dominix and Ishtar setups. Wink

mallina
Caldari
SUNDERING
Zenith Affinity
Posted - 2006.11.05 18:58:00 - [113]
 

Im more concerned that they didnt increase Cap amount and decrease cap booster size along with the HP boost. Not doing so is a nerf to all cap-heavy ships.

As for fighters, yes they need a boost - but drones are difficult. The ability to scoop a drone and redeploy it to instantly regen its shields is extremely useful and for heavier drones it may take several redeploys before the drone dies.
If you increase shield HP on drones, you give the controller MORE time to scoop the drone before it takes any damage whatsoever. If you were already struggling to kill drones before they got redeployed then this will make it harder-maybe even impossible do so.

making drone shields recharge slowly in drone bay (20-30s or so for 0-100%) would fix this, but only shields - NOT armor or hull.

Drutort
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.05 22:16:00 - [114]
 

when will the drones and fighters get fixed so they mwd back to the ship... that is a very important thing... kali cant hit live with that bug that is just stupid

Daelin Blackleaf
White Rose Society
Posted - 2006.11.05 23:27:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 05/11/2006 23:29:08
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 05/11/2006 23:28:42
Drones definitely need some love, with the HP boost we need to know our primary weapon system isn't just going to go pop before the fight is half way through.

A HP increase however likely isn't the answer

Perhaps a boost to dronebays across the board similar to the considered lowering of ammo volume (alternatively lower the volume of each drone, but altering the dronebay allows tweaking between ships)

Another suggestion would be a significant reduction in signature radius. Making them near impossible for anything larger than a destroyer to take out, a nice side-effect of this would be giving t1 destroyers an increased use in combat.

In the case of fighters id say go for the bay boost or the HP boost as they resemble NPC allies more than a nest of angry wasps. With their impressive isk value I'd say a HP boost is likely best in their case.

[Edit: grammar Very Happy ]

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2006.11.05 23:33:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 05/11/2006 23:40:18
Signed as many times as the millions of points I have in the drones category.

Instead of only considering HP though, signature radius should be looked as at well.

Just some numbers (only combat drones considered here):
light drones - 25m
medium drones - 60m
heavy drones - 125m
fighters - 125m
sentry drones - 400m

Compare this with these (not precise):
shuttles - 25m
frigates - 30 to 50m
cruisers - 120 to 150m
battleships - 400 to 450m

Are we seriously to believe that light drones have the same signature radius as shuttles? That medium drones have a bigger signature radius as frigates? That heavy drones and fighters have the same signature radius as a cruiser and that a sentry drone has the same signature radius as a battleship?

If signature radius has any relationship to ship size (which ofcourse it has), I think not.

So far, this has not lead to many problems because of the average short time of engagement. Since this will now be increased by increasing ship HP (a positive change), adequate changes need to made.

I propose the following changes to signature radius based on ship size appearence in game (not a precise science, I admit):
light drones - 12m
medium drones - 25m
heavy drones - 30m
fighters - 50m
sentry drones - 75m

This would make light drones have half the radius of a shuttle, medium drones the radius of a shuttle, heavy drones the radius of a small frigate, fighter drones the radius of big frigates and sentry drones in between frigates and cruisers, somewhat like a destroyer.

What will be the expected result of this change? Well, mostly, it would make drones harder to hit for big guns ofcourse. This will give them staying power in the longer engagements we're going to have. Also it means that combined arms will be needed for a fleet to survive. The dedicated frigate-killer will also be needed to fend off drones, it may even give some purpose to the poor destroyer as well, not to mention the smartbomb.

With these changes to the signature radius, a dramatic increase in HP shouldn't be necessary as well (maybe half the relative increase given to normal ships?).

I also don't think it will overpower drones. For one, as a weapon drones were underpowered to begin with. For two, drones will still have a counter in small turrets, rockets and light missiles, and (lets not forget) other drones.

I'll be happy to test these changes on the test server.

aquontium
Gallente
Fourth Circle
Posted - 2006.11.06 00:37:00 - [117]
 

I have to agree with Mr. Crane on this, even including making the sentry drone sig 75m. Still seems too big when they don't have a propulsion system, but I do understand that other players need to be able to hit them.

Having said that, there are so many issues with drones it's hard to know where to start. Personally I'd love to see drones MWD back to ship or at least fly back in a curve (they're meant to be intelligent, we've read the Chronicles), I want them to regularly engage targets rather than 'hey........we're almost halfway there.............it's Kit Kat time! (have a break)'. I'd like to see them hit things that are webbed/painted properly, I'd like to see them not 'go dumb' when they're in structure. I'd like to see them no longer stop and MicroWalkDrive back to the drone bay, or ignore commands to do anything, sometimes. I'd like it if I didn't have to work out why OgreI's are much more likely to do this thank OgreII's......that should be a dev job! I'd like it if we could be told of the dev's intentions, not just 'hey, we're looking into it' but 'we think drones need fixing and we've not got round to it yet', 'we think drones need a nerf', or 'we think they'll be fine if we ignore them'. Fighters I'm no expert on - but drones.........drones I know, and I know a lot of Gallente friends (and others) are making accurate and constructive comments about the problems with them. Having a HP increase in line with the rest of everything else will prevent our nice T2 drones turning into expensive popcorn - there isn't any other ammo on the market that costs up to 2.5m ISK per round.

Thanks for listening devs - we do appreciate it and the hard work that's gone into Kali.

CharlieMurphy
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.06 04:34:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: El'jonson
Basically what all drone specialists want is for drones to be treated as anoughter 'full' weapon system, instead of the surport weapon that most people see them as.

Drones need to be able to last longer in a fight, wether this is through more hp or higher resists or decreasing their sig radius so they are harder to hit. Very Happy

The bugs with the drones/fighters need fixing seriously its getting beyond a joke when a guy flying a carrier gets dropped by the server and loses all his fighters, this should of been sorted before carrier were released and a year on (nearly) its still broke. Sad

In line with drones being treated as a full weapon system they need more commands (that work), such as defend target etc like drone users have been asking for. Very Happy


i very much agree with that
atm drones feel like 3/4 of a primary weapons system and in this respect they are holding gallante back in the sense of their background story
Gallante are meant to use drones,unleash swarms of drones,perhaps even disposable drones that when they get shot down the ship drops another to replace it
every gallante ship should have a large drone bay because its what gallante do,if it needs balancing perhaps drone "slots" so while an ishkur might have a huge drone bay it would never launch a heavy drone because it didnt have a heavy drone slot
atm ccp appears to try and control what drones can be used by limiting the drone bay itself which for want of a better word is "ungallante" for example the myrmidon with its 100 m3 bay will clearly not field 5 heavys so why not give it a 250m3 bay with only 4 heavy slots so the end result would be the same but it would be a real drone ship

on the subject of leaving drones behind when you warp out.. how bad would it be if drones warped with the controling ship? after all you dont mysteriously leave your turrets behind when you warp out

Drones need alot of work imo both in their combat ability and their control interface but there is also great potential and they are a unique form of combat
i will reseve judgement on how they will or wont be gimped after kali but i have just spent a long time specializing in drones and if i log on after the patch and find i have just wasted all that time i will be most unamused

pls dont make my drone specialist useless ccp Sad

Thayder
Posted - 2006.11.06 11:25:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Temo Jick
How about we just boost drone armor and structure but not shields? that way drone users like myself, dont gain a bigger scoop to repair advantage but we also dont suffer quite so much from longer combat time?


nuff said.

Caya
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.06 12:22:00 - [120]
 

One thing i would very like to see about drones and fighters is chance to see their actual stats modified by skills, mods etc...


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