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Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:16:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain

In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat.

Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing.




Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you!

1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds).
2. Are of the general scenario:
a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS
b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm.
c) We've tested it and it really sucks.

to these:
1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded
2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space.
b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase.
c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is.

To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing.

I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:21:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Spaced Skunk
Ok the new battlecruisers :) Heres my discussion contribution;

Gallente;
I see no problem with the gallente battlecruisers, Brutix is blaster, Myrmidon is a drone boat.
People are complaining about the lack of drone space in the Myrmidon (waa waaa waaaa I cannot fit 5 heavies and have more heavies for backup) to put it short anyway Very Happy But this ship has more tank than the smaller version (Vexor), and more mid slot versatility like the bigger version (Dominix/Ishtar/Eos), and more high slots for nos and guns and whatever. I really see this as being a bigger Vexor and a smaller Dominix. If you were going to boost it, more powergrid/CPU and maybe 1 or 2 extra turret points.

Caldari;
Drake seems nasty but why the hell does it have more damage and more tank than the ferox? Drake needs to be ballanced I think, basically lose its resistance bonus, replace with missile velocity. Ferox therefore remains the tanker. Ferox/Vulture also needs more turret points at reduced missile points.

Amarr;
Prophecy is still an uber tanker and its damage isnt too poor either. Harbinger is just like the Minmatar Hurricane, the layout is just dam fine, and very PVPy Very Happy Obviously will suffer lack of tank when fitted with a full rack of heavy pulse, which balances it out, looking at the Harbinger, I am going to train t2 medium lasers up too Very Happy

Minmatar;
I dont really like the Cyclone, its very versatile but it just doesnt want to solo PVP , its heavy on cap cos of its active tank, and really does need an extra medium at the expensive of a low.
Hurricane therefore is just a damned fine ship, ROF and damage bonus like Rupture, but with more damage and tank. I just like it, I can see myself happily pvping in this ship for the rest of my time playing EvE tbh :)


Sorry buddy but I'd hardly choose a Ferox to tank hardly anything for PvP, maybe missions? lol.. be real, the BC class needs every shield res that it can get!

Kepp the Drake as it is !!!

Nicolaia Doniachevski
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [243]
 

Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there...

((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones))

Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that:

1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done.

2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done

3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them.

4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level"
-- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game?

Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such.

Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari

Galea Scorpii
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:29:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: TalanR
Caldari:
Gallante:
This is a lot of complaining about this ship. I have tried it and I seems alright. A compromise might be a be this:

base dronebay: 75m3

Fitting:
5 high (3 guns)
4 med (-1 slot)
8 low

Bonus:

25m3 of dronespace per level (200m3 max.)
10% drone hp per level
7,5% armor repair per level


this reduces the possible gun dps and compromises it with the drone space bonus.

about the 4 med slots. i think that 5 is going to push it to a ecm/drone boat but I don't think a 5th slot would overpower the ship

TalanR

How about this for the Drake:

3 high (2 missile)

Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level.




How about you go back to playing WoW!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:33:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 15:30:49
Originally by: Razin

How about this for the Drake:

3 high (2 missile)

Change shield resistance bonus to 1 additional missile high slot per level.



Sounds fair. Very Happy

Honestly, if people think it's ok for the Myrmidon being a slightly more tanked Vexor (with same DPS), then the only thing to do is to change the Drake into a slightly more tanked Caracal.

So let's see, that means 5 launcher slots. You can keep the 8 highs, but you'll have to use 3 of them for nosfes or smartbombs.

Or if you want to compare with Myrmidon and 4 heavies: your Drake has 7 launchers, but every time your shields drop below 50% one of your launchers blows up (this is to balance the ease of destroying those Myrmidon drones, leaving it helpless with no spares).

Not happy with that? Right. Neither are we with the Myrmidon.



Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there!

English enough for you m8 ?????

Galea Scorpii
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:36:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Nicolaia Doniachevski
Gonna get flamed for this one but... figure I might as well throw this out there...

((Yes I dont fly Gallente nor do I use drones))

Anyway with that said, from what I can tell about EVERYONE elses posts is that:

1.The Drake, slightly overpowered, tone it down on the resists or add missile velocity. OKay... done.

2. The Hurricane... just about perfect... okay done

3. The Amarr BC... needs a cap boost in some fashion which from as far as I can tell is necessary for most Amarr ships but people will argue this as well. When it comes to lasers, not fond of the simplicity it is to resist against them.

4. The Gallente BC is just about nerfed ((at least most think so)) and this is why I am posting. Now, I am NOT going to go through and figure every blasted mathematical figure there is to determine if this is a good idea or not but everyone complaint comes down to drone capacity as well as dps. Has anyone ever pondered the idea of increasing the drone bay to hold up to 15 medium drones(3 waves of 5), limiting it to ONLY flying medium or smaller drones, but its bonus is "Capable of field +1 drone per BC level"
-- A mini carrier of sorts since the Gallente ARE the drone insanity monsters of the game?

Like I said... just an odd suggestion not meant to be anything more then such.

Ps: I am Minmitar with only a little Caldari


If that is what you fly do not summarize the whiners on this forum and let us know that you summarized ending it with "done." As you said you have no experience in anything but Minmatar. Voice your opinion about that race ship then!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:38:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Kruel
I keep seeing people complaining about how the Myr being able to field 5 heavies will "give it the dps of a battleship". Bullocks!

The DPS of a Domi with only 5 tech2 heavies is actually quite low. The only reason this works is because of the nos/ecm combo, which isn't going to work nearly as well on the Myrmidon due to the lack of heavy nos and ecm nerf.



Exactly. With the ECM+nosfe+drones platform now pretty much dead (good thing too), "drone boats" aren't all that powerful.

With increased Myrmidon drone bay:

Myrmidon damage: 5 x heavy drone + 5 medium guns (no damage bonus)
Dominix damage: 5 x heavy drone + 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus

Someone who claims those are even remotely comparable has some education to do about gun damage.

With 5 heavy drones, a Myrmidon would do general HAC damage. Like the Drake and others do now.

With the small bay, a Myrmidon can choose to do either sub-HAC damage that will be gone fast leaving the ship helpless, or do t1 cruiser damage. Whee.



Maybe now you will finally realize what it is to fly a Ferox to a Brutix! Game on!

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:49:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio


Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there!



Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. Very Happy

My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all.

And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not.

If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC.

Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:56:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio

b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS?


Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps *if* it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent.

I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though).

And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that?

How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:59:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio

Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.



Not actually reading the post 4tl!

If you can get Heavy *Assault* Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds.

Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:01:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Zarch AlDain

In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat.

Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing.




Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you!

1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds).
2. Are of the general scenario:
a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS
b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm.
c) We've tested it and it really sucks.

to these:
1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded
2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space.
b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase.
c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is.

To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing.

I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!


Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Galea Scorpii
How about you go back to playing WoW!
Are you related to Black Scorpio?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:12:00 - [253]
 

To emphasize: Heavy Assault Missiles.
A little word can change things quite a lot.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that they are the equivalent to blasters, though. On the BCs certainly with 13km range for rage ass. But on the caracal thats 20km and on the cerb 30km. The range bonus of the missile cruiser makes the "shortrange" missiles a bit to strong IMO.

And nevermind the javeling ammo. Right now you get there an 550% range boost from t1, from 15 to 100 km. Which is way too much. To compare, the range boost of jav rockets is 180% and the jav torps 150%.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:19:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Black Scorpio


Oh there is another one of your "CONSTRUCTIVE" comments now, isn't there!



Ah, I see the trolls are waking up again. Very Happy

My example was just to show that if you think it's ok that the Gallente BC does t1 cruiser damage, then you should have no problem with the Caldari BC also being dropped down to Caracal level. Only fair, after all.

And no, I don't want the Drake nerfed. But since it does HAC-equivalent damage, I damn well want the same for all the other tier2's also. The others are already pretty much there, Myrmidon is not.

If needs be, I'm ok with it losing a turret hardpoint (5 -> 4 turrets). But it absolutely needs the bigger drone bay in order to function as a drone BC.

Drake is pretty much equal to Cerberus. Myrmidon is a slightly boosted Vexor (t1 cruiser). That's the mismatch, and it needs correcting.



If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:23:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Black Scorpio

b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS?


Umm, what? The Brutix sucks, in general. Sure it has high dps *if* it gets to range, but it moves like a pig even with MWD and is very cap-dependent.

I'd give pretty even odds in a Ferox vs Brutix fight, totally dependent on tactics, fittings and pilot skill. I don't fly the Ferox myself, but one of my corpmates does and she racks up a nice amount of kills with her Ferox. She even took on an Absolution (by mistake :) and survived to tell the tale (had to run, though).

And anyways: even if there was an imbalance (which I doubt exists), what has that got to do with anything. In your logic, is it ok to have a new ship clearly gimped because some of the older ships are good? What kind of half-assed logic is that?

How would you like it if the new Caldari battleship sucked totally, and people would respond to your complaints with "well, you guys already have the Raven, stop complaining!"?


Buddy, check the speeds on the Brutix and the Ferox and don't talk me about ship speeds...

And if you went a step further than your nose, I am saying that you aren't somehow complaining when you get the ZOMG ships, but ohhh whine as usually when you don't have another winner over all in a new ship that is coming out.

And yes the Brutix is a much, much much better ship in 1v1 vs the Ferox! Ask anyone, including your friend, the Ferox pilot!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:24:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Black Scorpio

Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.



On the contrary, that was exactly the point that see Heavy misiles are a short range weapon. No they are not. And 60 km is easy with heavy misiles, 70km is a more realistic number. Add all misile skills to lvl 4-5 and take in account occasional ship bonuses.


Not actually reading the post 4tl!

If you can get Heavy *Assault* Missiles to go 60km I'm pretty impressed. That's what, 30-40km/sec velocity since their flight time is 2-3 seconds.

Who cares how far your Heavy missiles go. We weren't talking about them.


Galea Scorpii
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:26:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Galea Scorpii
How about you go back to playing WoW!
Are you related to Black Scorpio?


I can see now why that must be thought.. however no!

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:32:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Zarch AlDain

In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat.

Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing.




Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you!

1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds).
2. Are of the general scenario:
a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS
b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm.
c) We've tested it and it really sucks.

to these:
1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded
2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space.
b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase.
c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is.

To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing.

I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!


Actually Zarch is right, Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range and are the missile equivalent of blasters. They're different from heavy missiles. You lose.


Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved.

Not to mention what kind of ******ed idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned).

Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions!

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:42:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio

If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.


Well, *I'd* be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details).

...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source).

So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper.
Very Happy

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:48:00 - [260]
 

Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21

Originally by: Black Scorpio

Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved.

Not to mention what kind of ******ed idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned).

Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions!


Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali.

Calculon
Gallente
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:50:00 - [261]
 

Quote:
Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

Me thinks that Black Scorpio doesn't actually check his facts before posting. Or he simply can't differentiate between two completely seperate types of ammo.

Now, Scorpio, on your one hand you have your Heavy Assault Missiles. They have a MAX range (non-rigged) with MAX skills of about 15km on the Drake. Flight time x Velocity on the missiles, while equipped with max skills = 15km.

Now, on your other hand, Scorpio, you have Heavy Missiles. Note I left off the word "Assault" in there. You following me? Because if not you're probably going to make a post like you did earlier where you completely disregarded the difference between the two. Flight time x Velocity on the Heavy Missiles while equipped on a Drake and yes, you'll get something in the 60km range.

To sum up:

Heavy Assault Missiles - Max range 15km on the Drake (non-rigged).

Heavy missiles - Max range over 60kmish on the Drake (non-rigged).

So when people say that the HAM's (heavy assault missiles) are short range weapons, they are indeed correct. They are the cruiser equivalent of rockets or torpedos, and that right there is why I don't think CCP will be removing the shield resistance bonus and adding a missile velocity bonus to the Drake.

The Drake very much seems to have been tailor made for the HAM's. It's PG and CPU are just perfect for fitting 7 of them, and still having room for an acceptable tank. What you'd get with a missile velocity bonus is good DPS (the Harbringer and Hurricane still blow the Drake away when it comes to DPS) at an even greater range.

The weakness of a HAM-fitted Drake right now is range, and that's crucial to the way the Devs designed it, in my opinion. In order to get good DPS out of the ship, you have to close within 15km of your target on the slowest and most cumbersome of the Tier 2 BC's. So what does that mean?

Well...you could always have a dedicated Rapier assigned to you webbing the target to oblivion and back, but balance issues need to set aside a teammate from the equation.

Instead, if you want to close in on any of the other Battlecruisers or below, you're going to need to fit an AB or MWD. With a passive setup, you don't have the PG for a MWD, meaning that you are forced to go active. And with an AB fitted, any BC or below that also has one is going to run circles around you. As such, you're sacrificing tank in order to fit a module needed to close in on your target.

This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank.

Temo Jick
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:52:00 - [262]
 

Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 17:54:31
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Black Scorpio

If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.


Well, *I'd* be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details).

...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source).

So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper.
Very Happy



Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat.

Edit: just inserted the word 'working' thats rather important.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [263]
 

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea.

Myrmidon: remove one turret (leaves 4 guns, 4 utility). Boost drone bay to 175-200m3.

That would give the all-important 5th heavy drone and (even more importantly) the spare drones. The loss of a turret compensates for the added drone DPS. It could now properly function as a drone boat, while still having some non-drone firepower.

Comments? Any problems with this?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:55:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Temo Jick

Take all its high slots for all I care. I just want a working drone boat.



Amen to that. Very Happy

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:59:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Black Scorpio

If you are willing to relinquish that 1 high slot 150drone space is ok. You want a drone boat, here you go. I think also the Myr should also have only drone bonuses, since it's a drone boat. If drones are your weapon there you go 150 space is plenty and you have a wide variety and flexibility.


Well, *I'd* be ok with one less gun if it let me use 5 heavy drones and have some spares (would pref. need 175-200m3 drone space so there's more than one spare drone, but that's details).

...and the Myr already has only drone (offensive) bonuses, the other bonus is an armor repair one. No gun damage bonus (which is part of the problem, the drones are the only serious damage source).

So yeah, make it 8 highs with 4 turrets and 4 "utility" slots, and boost the drone bay, and I'll be a happy camper.
Very Happy



More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought...

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:00:00 - [266]
 

Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 27/10/2006 17:49:21

Originally by: Black Scorpio

Would you even do as much as read the info on the misiles you're talking about, since you apparently never fitted one. The default flight time is 8 sec, and speed is 3000km which gives them 24km right off the bat. The rest is skills/ship bonuses and is easily achieved.

Not to mention what kind of ******ed idea would it be in 1v1 to use those against say a Brutix, where you get a slamming cap penalty, and even without the NOS from your oponent your cap will be trained in no time. Add shield boost, the requirement of using at least 2 target painters to raise the ships sig, and the NOS from your oponent and you're dead in the water at best (not to use the real words i feel when T2 misiles are mentioned).

Here, next time actually do the work on using a weapon before reading the title and jumping to conclusions!


Again you're wrong. Zach and I were both talking about Heavy Assault Missiles. Not the T2 "Fury" heavy missiles. Heavy Assault Missiles come out in Kali.


Well maybe if you clarify what you are talking about then people will understand you. And yes the current Heavy misiles are called Heavy Assault Misiles too!

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:02:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio

More like a max of 6 highs at best is enough for that type of ship! Utility or not. Sometimes a NOS does more damage than a turret... hm... what a thought...


The Myrmidon's relatively small grid already limits the number of med nosfes you can fit, they need a lot of grid per module.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:07:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Calculon
Quote:


This carries over to missions/complexes too. How many times have NPCs in those orbitted you at 20-30km? From my experience, there is always at least one type of NPC in missions/complexes that orbits you at that distance. The Drake, in a full-tank no propulsion-boosted setup won't be able to close on them. ;) So if you're fitting HAM's, you're not fitting a full tank.


Dude, I really don't care about complexes, If i have to go through one, say for Cosmos missions that allow up to a BC I'll just jump in my Nighthawk. Much more easier. + I like the leather upholstery and the ivory on the inside of it too Cool

If anyone circles me at 15-20km I just use regular T1 Heavies, hell I use them anyway, b/c of the other variety's cumbersome limitations!

Calculon
Gallente
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:12:00 - [269]
 

Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:18:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Calculon
Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)


Can't wait for all these apparently "great" improvements YARRRR!!Cool


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