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murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.16 06:01:00 - [811]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Nyxus
Now that the Harbinger has a +dam instead of +rof, please give it back the 8th turret slot it so desperately needs as well as the grid/cpu to fit it.

The model also looks incredibly lame with only 7 turrets. That big gaping empty spot on the front of the ship is incredibly annoying.

Nyxus



It's still listed as ROF, but was changed to damage if you look at the numbers. Check the damage mods on the guns.

I think Keepiru calculated that it means 8% less damage, but 25% less cap use.

Nyxus


It has a damage bonus instead of ROF? Where has that been announced? On test atm it's still ROF.



ty ty Very Happy

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2006.11.16 07:06:00 - [812]
 

Originally by: Vaedon
If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys.

If it were somehow possible (either through ship bonuses or the ability to fit one or two drone control units or something else) to run 6 or 7 (medium or light) drones instead of just 5, would that be a decent middle ground for DPS?

Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights.

Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol

not really, I posted something similar on page 6-9

Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Posted - 2006.11.16 07:11:00 - [813]
 

Originally by: Torment
Edited by: Torment on 15/11/2006 09:25:09
Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that the Command ships(The Astarte in this point)really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account.

Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,QuestionBecause as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close


Great... just fracking great. And I have trained Command Ships lvl5. Rolling Eyes

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.16 07:39:00 - [814]
 

Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Torment
Edited by: Torment on 15/11/2006 09:25:09
Tux after testing against the tier II BC in my astarte i have found that the Command ships(The Astarte in this point)really do struggle against them...My Astarte went through all its cap 800 boosters and actually had to warp off against a Drake on my other account.

Maybe a slight boost is in order for all Command ships,QuestionBecause as of now they are really close to the new BC...maybe too close


Great... just fracking great. And I have trained Command Ships lvl5. Rolling Eyes


On the plus side, you can hop into any command ship in about 25 days.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.16 09:23:00 - [815]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, but again, then it needs a tackler or someone else to be in range with a 20km scram. And again, it still cant kill anything without that scram because it cant keep things in range and comparing it to pvp fits with scrams/webs of the other BC's is ridiculous.


Yes.

But the thing is: BCs are not exactly the most effective tacklers. Slow targeting & low speed. Unless your target does not pay attention the only ship a single BC can relieably tackle is a BS. And probably other BCs with a ~50:50 chance depending how far they come out of warp.

So regardless which BC people are flying, having an inty tackler is always a very good idea. And a Drake will still blow the other BCs out of the water when they do not use any meds for tackling gear.

murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2006.11.16 10:52:00 - [816]
 

Originally by: Kruel
Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more.


Big time.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:01:00 - [817]
 

Originally by: murder one
Big time.


To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps.

So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:19:00 - [818]
 

Originally by: Vaedon
If I understand correctly, popular opinion says the Myr needs more DPS than the Vexor, which people run 5 meds in, and less DPS than a Dominix, which runs 5 heavys.

If it were somehow possible (either through ship bonuses or the ability to fit one or two drone control units or something else) to run 6 or 7 (medium or light) drones instead of just 5, would that be a decent middle ground for DPS?

Additionally, increase the drone bay to 120m3 (thus avoiding the dreaded 5 heavys). 120m3 would allow for two flights of 6 mediums, or 3 flights 7 lights.

Or am I thinking too far outside of the box? lol


No, I'm afraid you're pretty much firmly inside the box. Sorry.

Vexor DPS is 5 medium drones plus 4 medium turrets WITH damage bonus

Dominix DPS is 5 heavy drones plus 6 large turrets WITH damage bonus

The drone DPS is only part of the equation with these ships. Those guns with damage bonuses matter, a lot. 6 large blasters with +20-25% damage bonus *hurts*.

So, with heavies Myrmidon would be 5 heavy drones plus 6 medium turrets with NO damage bonus. That's slightly above the DPS of the other tier2's so balance things out by removing 1-2 turrets.

End result: 5 x heavy drones plus 4-5 med turrets with NO damage bonus. Balanced and works as a drone boat, not a bad-at-drones-and-turrets hybrid with no role in battle other than "tank a bit and then die". See Sacrilege and Damnation for the end results of that brilliant ship design philosophy...

Anyone using terms like "the dreaded 5 heavies" does not really understand drone ships. For a ship of this class, the DPS of 5 heavy drones isn't anything special. Hell, the Ishtar gets almost 3 full waves of heavies (with drone damage bonus), *and* it gets a drone range bonus, *and* it also has a gun damage bonus! Compare to Myrmidon which is supposed to be a drone bc, and you see how pitiful the Myrmidon is as a drone boat -- or as anything else, since the Brutix outperforms it by a mile in the gun department.

Why is it that the Myrmidon only compares to the other tier2's in full-gank mode with minimal tank, while the others are in balanced gank/tank mode?

In it's current state, the Myrmidon is not worth flying, especially compared to the borderline-overpowered other tier2 bcs.

In addition, all the others can stand toe-to-toe with their race-respective HACs, sometimes outperforming them. The comparison of Myrmidon and Ishtar just underlines how crappy the Myrmidon is, it's close to being "no comparison even possible".

Why can the Ishtar wield multiple waves of heavy drones and still be balanced with the other HACs (good at 1-vs-1 and closerange, not so good elsewhere), while somehow the Myrmidon is supposed to wield medium drones as primary weapon, against battlecruisers to boot?

It does not work, as multiple calculations and practical tests have shown. The Myrmidon currently loses against any of the other 3 tier2's, unless the enemy pilot is an idiot. Hell, it even loses against some of the tier1 bcs. Hooray.

It either needs those heavy drones, or the other new battlecruisers need to be nerfed. Simple as that. And no, I would not especially like to see a nerf.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.16 11:42:00 - [819]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: murder one
Big time.


To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps.

So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it.


Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful.

So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.16 12:59:00 - [820]
 

Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: murder one
Big time.


To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps.

So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it.


Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful.

So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships?



NOS/Neut.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.16 13:52:00 - [821]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: murder one
Big time.


To repeat what I answered that poster - if a drone is shot at you need something which shoots it. That dps is not coming out of thin air. By shooting at drones you will reduce the myrs dps AND your dps.

So effeciently it won't really put the myr in any dps disadvantage vs the other ship. Unless it only sends 1 single warrior on a drone, but then the myr can take it's time to recall it.


Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful.

So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships?



NOS/Neut.


Doesn't effect missiles or projectiles. Try again.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.16 13:54:00 - [822]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 16/11/2006 14:01:25
Originally by: Alex Harumichi
Ummm, what? The Myrmidon can currently only wield 4 heavies, with no spares. Sure, it takes some extra effort to kill a drone, but every drone you kill of those 4 means a huge permanent drop to DPS. Without the drones, and with no spares, the Myrmidon DPS is pitiful.

So tell me again how I can permanently kill the primary weapon systems of the other ships, especially now with ECM fixed to only work properly on ECM-specialist ships?



That particular comment was about recalling drones BEFORE they get killed (in order to avoid them getting killed) and the resulting dps loss because they spend some time in transit and do not shoot the other ship all the time.

Original comment:

Originally by: Kruel
Something that often isn't taken into account is that even IF the Myr were to do more raw DPS on paper than the other BCs, in a realistic situation it wouldn't. Every time a drone is shot, the Myr pilot would have to call the drone back. DPS goes down. The further the drone has to travel will effect the overall drone DPS even more.


Does it says anything about destroyed drones? No? It was referring about the dps reduction droneships get when they juggled drones. But, as said, if a droneship has to juggle them the enemy ship is also focussing some of it's dps on them, so both ships get a dps reduction. So that particular argument is not really valid.

Does not mean that the myr does not need an 150-225m dronebay, though.

Polinus
Caldari
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.11.16 14:24:00 - [823]
 

NOS it and keep it nossed. Drones dissadvantages come aoong wiht nice advantages :)

Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2006.11.16 16:22:00 - [824]
 

It takes a bit longer to recall/redeploy a drone than the time it takes to fire one missile. At a range of 10k you're looking at 15-20 seconds for recalling/redeploying a single drone.

Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2006.11.16 16:32:00 - [825]
 

Originally by: Kruel
It takes a bit longer to recall/redeploy a drone than the time it takes to fire one missile. At a range of 10k you're looking at 15-20 seconds for recalling/redeploying a single drone.


I should've clarified, I was talking about a slowboating OgreII. Also, remote reps are crap. If they had a lot more range, they might be useful for drone ships.

Vladimir Tinakin
Caldari
Wife Aggro Productions
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:00:00 - [826]
 

Edited by: Vladimir Tinakin on 16/11/2006 17:02:22
Scanned the thread, but haven't seen this...

Drake is now 6 launcher slots, and the RoF bonus is exchanged with a 5% Kinetic bonus. Sad

CPU/Grid is now 525/850. Slots are 4/6/8, Launcher/Turret 6/3

Honestly, its been pretty badly nerfed...I can see the grid reduction--forces you to go tank or gank--but the RoF to Kinetic change along with the loss of a launcher gimps the DPS badly.

And the 5% kinetic is a joke. If we're going to lose the RoF bonus, at least change it to a 10% damage boost. Even the Caracal gets that.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:20:00 - [827]
 

Very needed changes.

It just loses a missile hardpoint and can still mount 8 weapons. It's just that 2 of them won't be bonused. Big frigging deal.

The kinetic bonus instead of RoF means an mere 8% damage loss, but a 33% damage loss if you wants to vary damage types, which is still a low price to pay seeing as how Amarr and Gal can't even do that.

On the other hand, now you justs fit 2 Nos instead of 1 I guess?

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:26:00 - [828]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 16/11/2006 17:27:20
well the new bcs look a lot better all of a sudden.

havent checked on their new damage output yet but i always found them to be too good compared to the tier 1 bcs. then again us amarrians only had the prophecy to compare to.

apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.


edit: hurricane lost 1 turret slot btw.


keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:31:00 - [829]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 17:33:37
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Very needed changes.

It just loses a missile hardpoint and can still mount 8 weapons. It's just that 2 of them won't be bonused. Big frigging deal.

The kinetic bonus instead of RoF means an mere 8% damage loss, but a 33% damage loss if you wants to vary damage types

Hahahahaha... hahaha. Excuse me, I know this a personal question but... you're on drugs, right?

You obv. haven't tried fitting anything but launchers in the damn thing. Please do. You'll find once you're done with the launchers you'll need help just to fit an afterburner and a shield booster. That's why every setup for this ship that was thrown around before had NOTHING in the spare high, and will keep having nothing now.

As for the damage, it was already the lowest-damaging BC, now it falls into line with every BC since they were 1st released that does not outdamage its type-equivalent HAC.

Which is to say, its a waste of database entries, JUST LIKE THE FEROX.

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.

Hate to disappoint you but they haven't.

Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:50:00 - [830]
 

Originally by: keepiru

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
apparently tux has also improved cap on all ships. looks like he forgot to put in a sizeable difference between ships using cap to fire and those that use cap-free weapons though.


Hate to disappoint you but they haven't.

Cap and cap recharge time has been increased by 50% accorss the board, cap/sec is unchanged, differences between ships are unchanged in % points.


oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire.



Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.16 17:54:00 - [831]
 

the drake has been overnerfed ugh HAM Javelin were out of whack, not the drake

changing the rof bonus to kinetic dmg is oke and good in my book, but it shouldnt have lost a launcher slot


hurricane? ****ing joke the change ugh


and the broken battleships? no change Rolling Eyes

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:09:00 - [832]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 16/11/2006 18:11:21
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
oh i'm not really disappointed. a quick 50% boost to all ships is a lot easier to do than to actually increase the cap of each ship according to what is needed by that ship. so the hp boost will still favour ships that dont require cap to fire.

Ofc, after all, its too much to expect game desing to address existing problems and use moderation, instead of swinging ships from zomgovepowered to bahusless and leaving trails of broken stuff along the road Rolling Eyes

Oh and the Myrmidon STILL has more grid than the brutix.

Really guys, game design and industrial cleaner abuse dont' mix, k?

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:14:00 - [833]
 

ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...

how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:15:00 - [834]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...

how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?


silly you, Brutix is a gallente ship, they are allowed to be better

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:23:00 - [835]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...

how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?

It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:42:00 - [836]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 16/11/2006 18:48:05
Okay, now how about giving the Harbinger the Augoror bonuses to continue that extremely popular line of ships?
And someone really needs to kill an MC outpost or four, a certain person seems to have way more influence than any player should be allowed to have and might need to be taken down a notch or three from his high perch...

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.16 18:53:00 - [837]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Ath Amon
ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...

how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?

It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs.


for passive high plated i agree but active one is pretty similar

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:13:00 - [838]
 

non-plated tanks are suicidal in kali.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:17:00 - [839]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 16/11/2006 19:24:10
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Ath Amon
ok so hurricane dps was so overpowered that it melted all other ships in no time...

how about the brutix that was doing more dps than the old hurricane and tanked as good?

It never tanked remotely as good. If you want to get a similar plated fit as the Hurricane was able to do with 220s and 3 guns rigs, you had to use electrons and 3 grid rigs.


for passive high plated i agree but active one is pretty similar


No its not, the Hurricane can basically always fit at least one plate, and doesnt use cap to fire.

Edit: Also, the changes are over the top. The Harbinger was supposed to get another turret, the Hurricane was not supposed to lose one. The Drake lost a launcher slot, not a huge deal... but the ROF bonus? Are you kidding me?

Doweena
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2006.11.16 19:23:00 - [840]
 

What about the fact that even though the Drake has an additional launcher it has less grid than the Ferox?


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