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Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:22:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Hurricane pros:
  • Better close and long range DPS (with t2 ammos, and t2 is almost needed in pvp, expecially for long range, is not the case)
  • More speed
  • More CPU after fitted weapons(yup)
  • More Grid after fitted weapons (nope, with similar weapons and good skills harbringer have actually a bit more pg)
  • Lower Sig
  • Better Tank due to non-cap using weapons (tank is tank, and harbringer have a better base tankage, for cap it depends, with harbringer using nos and hurr using HAM probably it will have also a cap advantage)
  • Better sensor strength
  • Less mass (yup)
  • Better Agility (yup)
  • Better weapon damage types (only short range and at the cost of dps)
  • Ability to change damage types (is the same as above)


Harbinger Pros:
  • 50 more dps between 7km & 15.5km (i'd say more dps between 5 and 60km and when fitting an HAM instead of a nos or dps is always better for the har)


Have I missed anything here? Does this look remotely balanced? Is it any wonder I am training up projectiles as we speak?

Nyxus


yup fixed Razz
my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj...

hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:30:00 - [512]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 00:37:07
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 00:36:29
No, the Hurricane really does have more grid after fitting similar weapons. The Harbinger has to fit lower teir weapons to have more grid than the Hurricane.

The best case analysis, with the Harbinger fitting FMP's and the Hurricane fitting 220's the at t1, the Hurricane has 1 more PG with max skills[more with less than max skills] with Tech II versions of the similar weapons the Hurricane is 13.4 powergrid ahead of the Harbinger at max skills.

The more skills, the closer this number gets.

In order for the Hurricane to have less powergrid left over after fitting weapons, the Hurricane has to fit bigger weapons [425's vs FMPs] than the Harbinger.

Edit:

Damage types. Phased Plasma M does 17.5% more damage to armor before weapon DPS modifications and before ship bonuses than Multifrequency M crystals.

Multifrequency does more against shields[about 40%]. With a damage bonus [say, 25% damage] the phased plasma gains the penalty back to 10%[so take weapon DPS multiplier and then multiply by .9 to get damage relative to a laser with MF on shields] and the bonus to armor goes up to about 50%.

Its worse against shields for T2, but invariably better against armor, and armor tanks are the more prevelent tanks.

Saying that projetiles dont get better damage types in the current situation is just plain false. They even do at t2 ammo. Not nearly as strong against shields [which wont matter much because of the ease of fitting a 20-25% EMP shield boost rig vs a 20-25% armor boost to explosive]

The better weapon damage types are not "at the cost of DPS" They increase real DPS by significant margians.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:41:00 - [513]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:47:28
Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 00:41:25
Originally by: Sniser
Originally by: keepiru

Now, on with the graphs!

Current Situation:
Damage @ Range
Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

Realistic Boosts:
Damage @ Range
Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


those screens are incorrect hurricane isnt using their drones. but harbringer is using them. If you add drones to hurricane they have a lot more high dps


They're all using drones, spreadsheet just runs out of space.

Originally by: Ath Amon
my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj...

hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof

Both Gallente BCs are total suck compare to the Harbi, Hurri and Drake.

The Brutix with its tank bonus could compete with them even though it has 1 less low to tank with, but only if it could fit compartable setups with Ion IIs that the Harbi does with FMP II and the Hurricane with 220mm IIs - which is to say, Guns, MWD, Injector, MAR II, 1600 tungsten.

Right now its short a 1600 Tungsten, which means it has half the HP = goes pop every single time.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 00:56:00 - [514]
 

mmm are you sure about pg?

considering max skills and the 100 base pg bonus (more with skills) i got harb with a few more pg... maybe messed up with ships or gun stats...

for damage it really depends...

imo explo is not bad for small ships, expecially, as you said most ships armor tank...

but with the ship getting bigger, with better tanks and eventual res bonuses it mostly lose that advantage.

for example for BS, expecially with new ones, i think EW and explo are quite equal in the end, even if again it depends mostly by tank fitted.

then proj have the ability to change damage type, for sure this is an advantage over lasers, but it can be done only in short range and imply a loss in dps

now, i'm not saying that lasers have no dmg type problems, but i consider it a problem mostly against hybrids than against proj.

proj have a bit more versatility but in the end, due to the low base dps they are in a similar situation, forced to use only explo/kin in long range and forced to gimp more their base dps in short range

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 01:07:00 - [515]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/11/2006 01:08:56
Originally by: keepiru

Originally by: Ath Amon
my advice is to train for hybrids... they outperform both lasers and proj...

hybrids need just 1 bonus to get a veeery good effectiveness while lasers need cap usage and rof and proj need dmg and rof

Both Gallente BCs are total suck compare to the Harbi, Hurri and Drake.

The Brutix with its tank bonus could compete with them even though it has 1 less low to tank with, but only if it could fit compartable setups with Ion IIs that the Harbi does with FMP II and the Hurricane with 220mm IIs - which is to say, Guns, MWD, Injector, MAR II, 1600 tungsten.

Right now its short a 1600 Tungsten, which means it has half the HP = goes pop every single time.


the bcs situation is a quite peculiar one, you have to consider that brutix is the dps dealer but (luckilly) it is tier 1, so it have less slots.

amarr and minnies get their damage dealer at tier 2 so they have more dps to tank...
(also with its tank bonus and very good dps i think it will still be quite close in performance to the new bcs)

the actual situation of hybrid weapons imo is pictured better by tier3 bs...

due to their good base damage, good tracking and range (for rails) and decent tracking (and for bigger ships even range) for blasters, hybrids can perform very well with just 1 dmg bonus or even whitout any bonus boosting them.

the example as said are the rokh wich will have huge tanking and range whitout needing "major" turret bonus to work well.

tank + range bonus will make a proj ship too low in dps comparment to be effective and a laser one can run in some cap problems, even if probably will be more effective than the proj

the hype is considered a bad ship... but mostly due pg... note that the very low pg is the only way to balance that ship atm... with more pg it will have an overkill dps and good tank/utility... again because hybrids just need 1 dmg bonus to reach awesome dps and the second bonus can be used for tankage or other usefull things

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 01:53:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
mmm are you sure about pg?

considering max skills and the 100 base pg bonus (more with skills) i got harb with a few more pg... maybe messed up with ships or gun stats...

for damage it really depends...

imo explo is not bad for small ships, expecially, as you said most ships armor tank...

but with the ship getting bigger, with better tanks and eventual res bonuses it mostly lose that advantage.

for example for BS, expecially with new ones, i think EW and explo are quite equal in the end, even if again it depends mostly by tank fitted.

then proj have the ability to change damage type, for sure this is an advantage over lasers, but it can be done only in short range and imply a loss in dps

now, i'm not saying that lasers have no dmg type problems, but i consider it a problem mostly against hybrids than against proj.

proj have a bit more versatility but in the end, due to the low base dps they are in a similar situation, forced to use only explo/kin in long range and forced to gimp more their base dps in short range


Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2]

Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2]

Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2]

Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills.

The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane.

So yes, I am absolutly sure.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 02:56:00 - [517]
 

Ok, so... can we agree that the Harbinger is subtly worse than the hurricane in nearly every respect, at once?

And especially in the 2 things which the boring, "guns & armor" amarr are supposed to be good at, which is, surprise, guns (hurricane does more damage) and armor-tanking (hurricane has the same slots and more cap for it)?

And start discussing how we go about making the Harbinger better in at least 1 department, without nerfing the Hurricane which is, quite frankly, exactly what a damage-oriented tier-2 BC should be like? Thnx Smile

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 03:03:00 - [518]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Ok, so... can we agree that the Harbinger is subtly worse than the hurricane in nearly every respect, at once?

And especially in the 2 things which the boring, "guns & armor" amarr are supposed to be good at, which is, surprise, guns (hurricane does more damage) and armor-tanking (hurricane has the same slots and more cap for it)?

And start discussing how we go about making the Harbinger better in at least 1 department, without nerfing the Hurricane which is, quite frankly, exactly what a damage-oriented tier-2 BC should be like? Thnx Smile


Yes, we can. So lets do that.

I like the 7/4/7 slot lay out with minor stat adjustment better than the 8 gun layout, but the 8 gun layout +CPU/PG to fit em all is pretty simple in its brutish amarri elegence.

Also, we wouldnt have that funky lopsided turret

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 05:02:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2]

Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2]

Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2]

Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills.

The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane.

So yes, I am absolutly sure.


1 pg is not that much... also here you are comparing a fitting with 7 guns with dps with hurricane using 7 guns and 1 HAM

looking here you have a picture where the lasers have same dps at close range and better at longer using 7 guns + drones vs 7 guns + 1 ham + drones

Damage @ Range

again to me it seem quite balanced, we have also to consider that here the fitting difference is not 1 pg but over 100pg for the harbringer...

removing the 8th high slot and putting it in the low imo it will overpower the ship... not only it will still do equal or more damage with also a better range but it will give one more slot to put in another dmg or tank mod, making the difference between the 2 ships more marked.

as said looking at graph... even ones you posted it seem to me the damage is similar at close and better for har at range...

looking at fitting and base tank the harbringer should outtank the hurr...

so again as i see the harb beat the hurr at tanking (as amarr should do) and at range (again as amarr should generally do), hurr beat it for speed and both ships have similar best dps in similar conditions...


if the 8th harb slot will be moved down then the ship imo should get penalized in the drone compartement or the difference in dps + tankage + range of the 2 ships will be to high to make the hurr worthwile

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.03 06:02:00 - [520]
 

Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 06:02:47
Originally by: Ath Amon
Keepiru's graph 67796



Wait.....isn't that Keepiru's graph of the Harbinger with 8 turrets? Ath are you saying that the Harbinger is fine as it is, or that it needs 8 turrets to be balanced?

I can't tell.

Also: the Hurricane has more grid left over when fitting comparable weapons. It will be able to fit a better tank becuase of this. It also has a lot more cap than a Harb when firing weapons. A LOT LOT LOT more if the Harb is using HP II. Hurricane WILL outtank the Harb. Period.

Nyxus

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 07:37:00 - [521]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 03/11/2006 07:41:56
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Goumindong

Base powergrid for a Focued Medium Pulse Laser is 120 [132 tech 2]

Base Powergrid for a 220 Autocannon I is 100 [110 tech 2]

Difference between 7 guns at max skills is 126[138.6 tech 2]

Difference between Harbinger PG[1875] and Hurricane PG[1750] at max skills is 125. So the difference at max skills between 220's and FMPs is 1 PG in favor of the Hurricane at max skills[and loads of CPU] and 13.6 PG when using tech 2 guns at max skills.

The worse your skills, the better this comparison gets in favor of the Hurricane.

So yes, I am absolutly sure.


1 pg is not that much... also here you are comparing a fitting with 7 guns with dps with hurricane using 7 guns and 1 HAM

looking here you have a picture where the lasers have same dps at close range and better at longer using 7 guns + drones vs 7 guns + 1 ham + drones

Damage @ Range

again to me it seem quite balanced, we have also to consider that here the fitting difference is not 1 pg but over 100pg for the harbringer...

removing the 8th high slot and putting it in the low imo it will overpower the ship... not only it will still do equal or more damage with also a better range but it will give one more slot to put in another dmg or tank mod, making the difference between the 2 ships more marked.

as said looking at graph... even ones you posted it seem to me the damage is similar at close and better for har at range...

looking at fitting and base tank the harbringer should outtank the hurr...

so again as i see the harb beat the hurr at tanking (as amarr should do) and at range (again as amarr should generally do), hurr beat it for speed and both ships have similar best dps in similar conditions...


if the 8th harb slot will be moved down then the ship imo should get penalized in the drone compartement or the difference in dps + tankage + range of the 2 ships will be to high to make the hurr worthwile


1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons.

2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate.

3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses.

At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 08:30:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

1. I already accounted for the Harbingers extra Powergrid when comparing the Powergrid usage of weapons.


nope you are calculating the pg on 7 weapons for both ships, but then you discuss the dps with the hurr using 8 weapons...

an option of the har is actually to leave 8th slot empty (is also the reason you are proposing to move the slot :P) in this situation it will gain around 100pg over a ham hurricane, and the dps is still balanced... i will prefer to fit a nos (same for the hur) but is still an option...

Originally by: Goumindong

2. The Harbinger does not beat the Hurricane when tanking, this is because the Harbinger uses cap on its guns. A whole bunch of cap, while the hurricane does not. This is important to figure into your calculations. Especialy when 1000 armor really isnt all that much. It is 20% of the base values, but much less if each decides to stick on a plate. And what happens if you stick on a plate? Well, the capacitor becomes a much more important issue, becuse you have more rep cycles to accomidate.


you have cap reduction that reduce cap usage, and also if you with a nos and the hur will fit an ham you will probably end up with a overall cap usage and, as you say, tanking

for plates i disagree, i see plates mostly as a buffer so is not that you need more cycles/more energy... the cap usage is the same is just that you are living more due to better hps.
so basically you sacrifice some active tankage for passive one.

Originally by: Goumindong

3. The graphs show the Harbinger being better than the Hurricane when it has 8 guns and the powergrid to fit 8 heavy pulses.

At the moment it has the PG to do so, or fit 7 heavy pulses, but it looses a huge amount of tank to do so, its next step down, is still behind the hurricane in damage.


mmmmm it was a bit different than mine here why Razz also i'm quite curious to see the graph with new t2 ammos... /crossfinger for sisi

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 08:46:00 - [523]
 

Ath, i dont believe you actualy have any clue about what you are talking about.

1. The damage bonus from a missile launcher is negligable, because its is a single launcher and there is no bonus on the ship.

2. The graph you are citing as showing the harbinger as so much better shows the harbinger using 8 guns versus the Hurricanes 7 guns/launcher. There is no equivelency between an extra gun and a missile launcher.

3. Missile launchers and AC's do not use any cap at all, so no, between the guns and the missile launcher the hurricane will not be anywhere near the cap use of the Harbinger even with the cap use bonus for lasers. The cap use bonus for the Harbinger would have to be 18%/level in order to make even the cap use of the Hurricane and the Harbinger. Not even with a medium NOS [5 cap/second base] You would have to fit two NOS's in order to eat into the cap use of your guns at max skills, and then you arent doing nearly as much damage as the Hurricane anyway

4. Plates prolong death. That is the point of plates. However, the longer before you explode, the longer you have to cycle your repairer. This benefits the Hurricane because the Hurricane uses so much less cap than the Harbinger. If a Plate gets you 3 cycles worth of staying alive then the Harbinger is in absolute terms, worse at tanking than the Hurricane, as it will have less effective HP while still firing its guns. If the plate doesnt get you three cycles[about 40 seconds], then having it wasnt worth much anyway now was it[as you lasted, at most, about 1 minute 10 seconds]?

Either way the Hurricane tanks better.

5. When i discuss the powergrid usage of both ships, I am doing so because the Hurricane does as much damage as the Harbinger with 7 guns and no launcher, and with equal fittings has more powergrid. Everything else is bonus. I dont compare with 8 guns, because i dont expect a Hurricane to fit 8 weapons, nor do I expect for them to need to, nor do I expect such a fitting to make much of a difference.

After you fit your guns, the Harbinger has more PG left to fit what it wants. If you fit a NOS[175 PG]like you suggest and the Hurricane fits a HAM[100 PG or so] then the Hurricane adds another 75 relative PG to the numbers above.

And the Hurricane STILL uses less cap, heck, it uses less cap if you NOS it and use that cap to power your guns!

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:34:00 - [524]
 

I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range.

Now, the problem is that the graphs give the distinct appearance that Ogres are useful and does damage past 20km - while they theoretically do damage out there, they aren't useful at all. At that range they are extremely vulnerable and they make it so that the drone ship must sacrifice all the drones if it needs flee the combat.
Essentially, it's the same as back in the days when missiles suffered greatly from long time-to-damage, with the important difference that drones are even slower. Well, the missile ships didn't lose their missile launchers if they fled, but...

If you wish to make "realistic" graphs, cut heavy drone damage at 20km, medium drones at 30km and light drones at 40km. Sentry drones really are useless in a PvP combat situation, since they don't orbit your ship (they really should orbit the host ship) but remains stationary where launched.
This is in situations where you aren't very certain to win, of course, but in situations where you are 100% certain to win graphs really do not tell anything at all - except maybe how many seconds the target has to get to gate/station.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:43:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
I must say that I've always found those graphs misleading when drones are involved. Essentially, the heavier the drone the less useful it is at range.

I agree, and that's why I tend to remove drones from long-range weapon dps graphs.

However, when comparing the myrmidon to other BCs fitted for short range, its a necessity, for obvious reasons.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 10:46:00 - [526]
 

1) then compare the graph with both ships using 7 guns (as i made at the beginning)

you have the "base dps" of the 2 ships with similar fitting requirements (1pg difference at highest skill) and the option for hurricane to fit an HAM or a NOS while the har have to fit a nos or leave it empty.

(about that i think there should be a bit more utility option for high slots but that's another story)

this way as said you get the basic picture of both ships with the versatility difference

2) my fault tought it was a normal graph + damage mods and is why it was a bit different than my basic graph

3) ok it doesn't use cap, but also with lasers you have a range bonus, no ammo usage and around 20-30% more base dps... these are the pros and cons of this weapon type and i think is generally quite balanced compared to proj. (hybrid and missiles imo are another history)

we can also discuss for midrange, but this is mostly a BS issue as the range for mids is too low to be really considered midrange.

for medium and quite a slow ship class as said in the other post imo range is a good bonus as it doesn't permit to get outranged with close range weapons, not to say that with such longer range you can also score some hits before the opponent.

4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary

also i prefer to keep the distinction between cap and tank, tank is the ability to absorb or sustain damage, yes it need cap to work but is the same for everything ecm, ab, scram and so on.

and the tank between the 2 ships is veeery similar with the main difference, as said, of +20% base armor for the harb

Swamp Ziro
Ultimate Betrayal.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:02:00 - [527]
 

Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 11:04:00 - [528]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58
Originally by: Ath Amon
with lasers you have a range bonus

Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a *very good* BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing.

Originally by: Ath Amon
around 20-30% more base dps

Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier.
Originally by: Ath Amon
4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary

Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here Laughing

And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay.

Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali.

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:04:00 - [529]
 

Edited by: Sniser on 03/11/2006 12:16:07
stuff

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:07:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Edited by: keepiru on 03/11/2006 11:04:58
Originally by: Ath Amon
with lasers you have a range bonus

Meaningless because the Hurricane dctates range. The Harbinger is a *very good* BC, the proble is that its outclassed by the Hurricane in everything, and that's what we're discussing.


is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem.

you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case

Originally by: keepiru

Originally by: Ath Amon
around 20-30% more base dps

Meaningless because the Harbinger only out-damages the Hurricane when the Harbi is using top-tier weapons and the Hurricane uses middle-tier.


is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats...

if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant

Originally by: keepiru

Originally by: Ath Amon
4) hurricane can use less cap (probably around 8 cap/s depending on t1 used) but also will have to use the cargo to store proj... this means more cap boosters for the harbringer that can regenerate more cap if necessary

Try more like 10 cap/second with FMP II, much worse with any other gun - I think we can all agree quad light beams are a non-issue here Laughing

And the Hurricane has like 50% more cargo bay.

Base armor is pointless if you don't have the cap to run your guns & reppers, with the fight lenghts in kali.


as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap.

it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 12:21:00 - [531]
 

Originally by: Sniser
then why i having too different numbers?

True Dmg

hurri out dps everyone ;)

Looks I forgot them then Embarassed

Originally by: Ath Amon
is not meaningless, you will not fight only hurricanes, hurricane is just one of the many ships and not one of the best for the harbringer, hurricane can't dictate range too against most cruisers and in that situation a lower weapon range can be a problem.

you say that the hurricane outperform the harbringer for everything, in my opinion is not the case

Yes, they wont only fighjt hurricanes, that's all fine and dandy BUT. Tell me *one* reason to fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane. You say you disagree, so show me why.

There isn't one.

I'm not asking to make the Harbinger UBER. I just want it to be better at one thing that's actually valuable in the real world - more damage outside web ange with short-range guns it meaningless.

Keep in mind, I'm horizontally specced, I can fly all BCs basically equally well... I would like one reason to actually use my laser spec, because right now there wont be, apart from NPCing ugh

Originally by: Ath Amon
is not meaningless as is the way weapons where developed and balanced... different weapons with different bonuses and different stats...

if you think that lasers are underpowered then it's another discussion and a "primary" problem, while the comparsion between these ships is less relevant

Its meanignless because we're not talking about the weapons, we're talking about the ship.

Originally by: Ath Amon
as said cap is particular area of a ship, you can say that amarr are weak on cap, but when you say that amarr are weak on tankage because of cap is like to say that amarr are weak on ecm, offence and so on because of cap.

it can seem a marginal distinction but is an important one as it focus an area where you have a problem. this makes easier to analyze the problem itself and to better compare balance and eventual solutions whitout unbalance other areas.

I dont agree with you. An armor tank is 1/3 resist, 1/3 hp and 1/3 THE FRAGGIN CAP TO RUN IT *has heart attack* Wink

*comes back from dead*

>.>

<.<

So yeah. xtra Armor on Harbinger = fragging useless, thanks to oh gee amarr are supposed to havbe better cap but they dont.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:30:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: Swamp Ziro
Personally, I wouldn't mind buffing the harbringer a bit, if only just to please the Amarrians. What they ask seems reasonable, unlike myrmidon buffs for example (:D), so why not.


Im not sure why myrmidon buffs isnt reasonable. I assume its because of the Brutix already having so high damage?

Ganking battlecruisers

Just some graph I made. Sorry for not using t2 missiles for the Drake, it didnt work for some reason. But with Rage missiles, the dps is 577. Not sure about Fury.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:42:00 - [533]
 

Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs.

Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.03 16:11:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Hmm. T2 missiles work for me, at least in DPS @ range graphs.

Just not in Cumulative Damage / Time graphs.


Ill check it out.. :)

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:04:00 - [535]
 

Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:19:00 - [536]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?


f'in, sweet!

bigger tank than a brutix now!

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:22:00 - [537]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?


Any changes to the Harbinger?

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:30:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Any changes to the Harbinger?

Not that I can see.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:33:00 - [539]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Goumindong
Any changes to the Harbinger?

Not that I can see.


:(

Jaxtet
Gallente
Posted - 2006.11.03 19:42:00 - [540]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Myrmidon is now 6/5/6, 6 turrets. No other changes that I can see, was it always 1175MW/400tf?


From a mission runner standpoint, that seems umm quite nice.


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