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Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.01 05:07:00 - [481]
 

Argh, some of you really frustrate me. :p

Not all of the new ships are supposed to be tactically identical. The Drake and Myrmidon are more tanking ships than ships designed to dish out firepower, and the Harbinger and Hurricane are more for laying out the damage. A damage ship should not have seven lowslots for tanking, so why are people complaining that it doesn't? Admittedly it seems that the Hurricane has a stronger tank than it should, but remember that the Harbinger stands out above the other battlecruisers in that it has more capacitor--the others are all equally below the Harbinger. Certainly, the capacitor drain of lasers is significant, and so perhaps the Hurricane's capacitor should be reduced to 2000; but don't go adding and removing slots. As a general rule, missile ships do far less damage than turret ships, but they have the freedom of manueverability (not constrained by transversal, etc) and a tank that is extremely strong for an extremely short amount of time. The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs).

Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics, that's why a battleship cannot (any longer) one-shot a frigate orbiting it at 500 meters. There is no "WIN" button in EVE, so stop trying to make one. With the Myrmidon, you can either field four heavy drones (with a damage and hitpoints bonus), two wings of five medium drones each, or four wings of light drones, or a combination somewhere between them. Has anybody considered logistics/electronic warfare drones?; it's designed to survive, so it wouldn't perform too poorly in a support role. Sure, give it the sixth turret slot so the graphics look all spiffy, and then leave it alone.

Personally, I hope they all suck, but look cool, so that everybody will buy them and blow them up, needing to buy more from me. :D

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.01 05:56:00 - [482]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Argh, some of you really frustrate me. :p

The feeling is mutual, I assure you.

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Not all of the new ships are supposed to be tactically identical. The Drake and Myrmidon are more tanking ships than ships designed to dish out firepower, and the Harbinger and Hurricane are more for laying out the damage. A damage ship should not have seven lowslots for tanking, so why are people complaining that it doesn't?

Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot.

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Admittedly it seems that the Hurricane has a stronger tank than it should, but remember that the Harbinger stands out above the other battlecruisers in that it has more capacitor--the others are all equally below the Harbinger.

Wow, a whole 250 more cap, yup, that will definitely cover the guns that draw as much or more cap/sec than a MAR II....

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Certainly, the capacitor drain of lasers is significant, and so perhaps the Hurricane's capacitor should be reduced to 2000; but don't go adding and removing slots.

Why not? Why should all ships be identical in slot setup? We're not talking about adding or removing, we're talking about moving a slot, so that the Harbinger goes from being a cheap copy of the Hurricane to being an Amarr ship worth flying for anyone but RP'ers - rememeber with BC5 you just need to spec for the guns to switch race, so why would anyone fly the Harbinger over the Hurricane, apart from when ratting (no ammo).

The Hurricane's cap is fine, its the Harbinger that needs more.

Originally by: Packtu'sa
As a general rule, missile ships do far less damage than turret ships, but they have the freedom of manueverability (not constrained by transversal, etc) and a tank that is extremely strong for an extremely short amount of time. The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs).

Uh, perhaps you need to actually get on the test server and see what a Drake can tank before you make such sweeping statements about tank bonuses... not that its any different from now, even on TQ resists bonus are miles better than repped/boosted bonuses in every situation.

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics, that's why a battleship cannot (any longer) one-shot a frigate orbiting it at 500 meters. There is no "WIN" button in EVE, so stop trying to make one. With the Myrmidon, you can either field four heavy drones (with a damage and hitpoints bonus), two wings of five medium drones each, or four wings of light drones, or a combination somewhere between them. Has anybody considered logistics/electronic warfare drones?; it's designed to survive, so it wouldn't perform too poorly in a support role. Sure, give it the sixth turret slot so the graphics look all spiffy, and then leave it alone.

Because 4 heavy drones will just you killed, and medium drones from a 35m isk ship with a 300m sig thats slower than a typhoon is 1) a waste of money (hello, vexor anyone?) and 2) will just get you killed.

In a nutshell, the Myrmidon with anything less than 5 heavy drones with bonus and replacements is a waste of space, isk, trainign time, and database entries. If it cant compete toe-to-toe with the ishtar, then its pointless as a battlecruiser.

Areconus
Posted - 2006.11.01 22:54:00 - [483]
 

Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 22:55:49
"Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot."

Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time.

"The Hurricane's cap is fine, its the Harbinger that needs more."


I agree with you on that. THe Hurricane's cap and slots should be left alone, instead, it is the harbinger that needs a tad bit of change, and not in a way that will give it est tank and damage at same time


Derran
Minmatar
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:00:00 - [484]
 

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned but why not just do something with medium and heavy drones instead? I very seldom see people bothering with medium drones. Why not just adjust the damage and the tracking on mediums and heavies? Make it so that medium drones work on cruisers and up and heavy drones (except maybe the berserker) work best against battleships. I'm not sure how great a solution it is to just increase the myrmidon drone bay. Something like that may just fix other issues with drone usage on non-drone based ships.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:04:00 - [485]
 

Originally by: Areconus
"Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot."

Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time.

Sounds to me like YOU are being sarcastic.

No matter what you do, the Hurricane is a better tank.

They both have the same lowslots, both lack a tank bonus, and the Hurricane will *always* have more cap available, as well as getting hit less thanks to smaller sig and being faster...

And if you want to super-plate, the Hurricane is better again, since Amarr dont have a dual180mm equivalent.

And the Hurricane outdamages the Harbinger... so uh, can I have some of what you're smoking? Very Happy

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:10:00 - [486]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 01/11/2006 23:21:59
Originally by: Areconus
Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 22:55:49
"Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot."

Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time.





No, we dont want both at the same time, but we want one of them, at least some of the time. At the moment, there is no Harbinger setup that tanks better than a similar Hurricane setup.

O.K. Not such an issue, the Hurricane has tank over the Harbinger.

Problem: While doing that, the Hurricane also does significantly[about 50% more for the guins] more damage than the Harbinger due to the Harbinger needing to fit projectiles in order to have a similar tank than the Hurricane.

Well, that ain so bad, so long as the Harbinger, if it fits lasers does more damage than the hurricane.

Nope, a Harbinger and Hurricane both fitted out for damage and the Hurricane does just as much as the Harbinger!

So, when the Harbinger tries to tank, it tanks as well as a hurricane [technically worse, due to the speed and sig boosts from the Hurricane making it harder to hit/do damage too, though i doubt its that significant] and does 66% of the damage. And when a Harbinber tries to gank, it ganks just as well as the Hurricane, but the hurricane has a stronger tank.

I.E. the Hurricane is better at both ganking and tanking in all similar situations over the Harbinger. If you were going to decide which one to fly, with equal skills, you would never, ever fly the Harbinger, because for whatever your goal[gank or tank], the Hurricane would be better at it, or just as good at it while being better in other, relevent, areas.

This is why the Harbinger needs to be changed so that at least if it decides to, it do something better than the Hurricane, whether that single something is tank, or gank, or EW, or anything really, is up in the air. But at the moment it is nothing.

Areconus
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:14:00 - [487]
 

Edited by: Areconus on 01/11/2006 23:18:06
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Areconus
"Because tanking and damage are the Amarr "thing", and at the moment the Hurricane is better at both, at the same time, than the Harbinger, thanks to the usual gimp utility slot."

Uhh what? I hope you are being sarcastic....you cant have the best tanking AND damage, so the reason why you are seeing problems is you are trying to have both at the same time.

Sounds to me like YOU are being sarcastic.

No matter what you do, the Hurricane is a better tank.

They both have the same lowslots, both lack a tank bonus, and the Hurricane will *always* have more cap available, as well as getting hit less thanks to smaller sig and being faster...

And if you want to super-plate, the Hurricane is better again, since Amarr dont have a dual180mm equivalent.

And the Hurricane outdamages the Harbinger... so uh, can I have some of what you're smoking? Very Happy


No, im not being sarcastic about anything. Did you read the rest of my post? I also said that the Harb should get a slight boost to do one of these jobs better. But, you said tanking and damage are the amarr thing. Not at the same time pal!

Like I said, increase harbinger cap, give it an xtra low slot, do something! It needs the ability to outperform the hurricane at tanking or damage, when it is fitted for it.

Besides, why doesnt CCP just decrease cap usage on ALL amarr guns? Would solve quite a few problems....

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.01 23:48:00 - [488]
 

Originally by: Logan Xerxes
Originally by: keepiru
Good stuff


Thank you for the helpful graphs that illustrate that the Drake is not going to kill everything that comes within 15km.


One should note, though, that this is only for T1 ammo. T2 ammo is changing this, especially the javelin assaults. Instead having 99 dps post 15 km the drake has with those 484 dps from 15-50 km.

Chronojam
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.11.02 00:03:00 - [489]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa

Now, last words about the Myrmidon.. why do people insist that it be able to field four wings of heavy drones with a damage and hitpoints bonus? EVE is about making choices-- that's why we have skills that encourage specialization, that's why we have CPU/Powergrid constraints, that's why the races involve different tactics


The Myrmidon can right now only hold four heavy drones period, not even a single wing of heavy drones. It would be nice if those of us who specialized in drones and chose to run without using CPU/Powergrid on turrets could employ our own unique tactics that may involve a Gallente racial base.

I don't want to be forced into the typical "lots of guns and gun damage boost" that many ships get. I want a ship designed for drones, and I want a ship that will let me benefit from my drone skills, and a ship that my drones can benefit from. If you tie an increased deployed-drones count to perhaps Advanced Drone Interfacing, to reward players who take such an out-there skill, awesome.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.11.02 05:41:00 - [490]
 

The real question is simple:

Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?

Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.

Nyxus

Wintermoon
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2006.11.02 06:18:00 - [491]
 

Why not think about taking the myrmidon in a completely different direction?

It will only be either compared to the vexor as an overexpensive version of it or to the dominix which does the same job better for only a little more ISK.

Personally, I'd go for a 5% damage bonus and a sensor dampening bonus, given it had 6 turrets and lost a low slot to a mid slot.

It would fit better the part of the description that mentions this being more for the cautious gallente pilot.

Also offers a completely different alternative to the brutix and the other battlecruisers.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.02 07:19:00 - [492]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
The real question is simple:

Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?

Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.

Nyxus



Hurricane looks a lot better Wink

why to fly a harb?

imo range...

we are speaking about BCs so cumbersome and slow ships, you can't really dictate range (except against some other bcs and bs)

so range here can be quite benefical as you will not get outranged by fast ships and you can outrange some enemy ships (i think brutix is slower)

dps is almost identical considering drones and gunds... hur can fit the HAM but i consider it a fair trade for the nos

tanking is in no way inferior, hur and har have an almost identical fitting with similar guns with harbringer having around 20% more base armor... the difference is not huge but for sure is not inferior to the hur

the difference is basically cap usage for range and ammo comsumption

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.11.02 08:12:00 - [493]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs).



The other way round, the repair bonus is only useful for low and steady damage.

At max skills, the +25 resistance is equal to the following bonuses:
+33.3% to shield size
(which results in +33.3% better shield recharge)
+33.3% to shield boost

For Drake, the bonus is a bit better than a free large T2 extender (with the 50% bonus) plus a shield boost amplifier. Oh, and a 33.3% bonus to any actual extenders fitted.

For Myrmidon, the 37.5% bonus is equal to 0.75 times a small repper that doesn't use cap (times the actual med reppers present).

I wouldn't call that identical.

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.11.02 08:43:00 - [494]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25
Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win.

Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon.

Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here:

  • The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med.

  • The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Razz


  • Now, on with the graphs!

    Current Situation:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


    Okay well.. the "realistic" boost graph scares me.. it has the Harbinger doing insane DPS, way too high for a tech I battlecruiser...

    The Harb probably should have a tad more cap, that is if it has cap issues, which I don't know as I haven't flown one yet.. I think an 8th turret would be overkill. 725DPS is quite a lot..

    I will admit the Hurricane is quite good, but I don't think it needs to be nerfed, maybe lose a turret slot if anything.. but that is probably not necessary.

    Why does the Hurricane and Harbinger have the same sensor strength? Shouldn't the Hurricane have less? I always thought Minmatar was supposed to be the easiest to jam, but they both have 16 strength.

    The Myrmidon does need more drone space, but not that much more, I think 175m3 would be sufficient for this ship.. 250m3 would be overkill, this ship does get a decent drone bonus and it's a pretty tank oriented ship with that armor rep bonus.. unlike the harb/hurr which seems to be all out DPS. 175m3 would give the Myrmidon the ability to use 5 heavy drones with a few spare or a LOT of mediums.. I guess that's fair.. honestly people want this ship to be a DPS monster but that's already really the role of the Brutix so I don't know if the Myrmidon should be that much of a DPS king, I do believe its kinda gimped with it's current 100m3 dronebay though.

    Drake looks pretty balanced to me, I think t1 HAM range should be 20KM with max skills though, not 15KM judging by those graphs.. seems like the Drake can get pretty out DPS/Ranged from 15KM-20KM and it's ofc the slowest of the tier2 battlecruisers.. will definitely need to use t2 javelins on this ship in PvP and reserve t2 rage for if you are lucky enough to get someone hideously close.. still that's not much of an option for most people who will fly this ship and can't use tech II launchers on it. =P

    HAM don't really have the uber DPS people been saying they do considering their relatively short range and the horrible mass/speed of the Drake itself.

    Goumindong
    SniggWaffe
    Posted - 2006.11.02 09:51:00 - [495]
     

    Originally by: Ath Amon
    Originally by: Nyxus
    The real question is simple:

    Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?

    Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.

    Nyxus



    Hurricane looks a lot better Wink

    why to fly a harb?

    imo range...

    we are speaking about BCs so cumbersome and slow ships, you can't really dictate range (except against some other bcs and bs)

    so range here can be quite benefical as you will not get outranged by fast ships and you can outrange some enemy ships (i think brutix is slower)

    dps is almost identical considering drones and gunds... hur can fit the HAM but i consider it a fair trade for the nos

    tanking is in no way inferior, hur and har have an almost identical fitting with similar guns with harbringer having around 20% more base armor... the difference is not huge but for sure is not inferior to the hur

    the difference is basically cap usage for range and ammo comsumption


    Why is anything fast enough to dictate range against you going to stick around in your wheel house when they will invariably have optimals at different ranges?

    Why wont they close the distance to pounce your terrible tracking, or run the distance out to take advantage of your granual like falloff?

    In order for longer range to be a benefit, you have to be able to dictate at what range the encounter happens. The Harbinger cannot do this. If it fits HP/FMP's and faces a fast long range ship, its going to get outranged. If it faces a fast short range ship, the short range ship is going to close until its under the Harbingers tracking/in its own wheel house.

    You will be able to dictate range to Battleships and some BC's in this situation. Well kinda, if they are close range they will probably have a MWD on, and they are close range unless they are another Harbinger. Problem, the Harbinger cant run the MWD nessesary to dicate range and fire its guns at the same time, not enough cap, especialy if he needs to make any repairs.

    If the Harbinger is fitted long it has similar issues, ships that get under its optimal will decimate it, it will be even with ships that want to fight at the same distance and ships that want to go long can simply go long.

    Medium Range only works if you have a means of keeping your enemies in medium range. If you dont, it doesnt work. Blasterboats are going to ram you, AC's are going to orbit really really close and long range runs are going to go long.

    How do you plan to dictate range with a harbinger? 2 Heavy Webber Drones? Will that slow down an MWD rammer? Will that shop a sniper from running long?

    Range is only a benefit if you can dictate where and how the encounter happens, and the Harbinger cant dictate where and how the encounter happens[except in fleet battles, but even then, im not really sure how much use it will be after the first seconds]. And no one is going to want to stick around in its wheelhouse, because their wheelhouses are in different spots.

    Freakus Geekus
    Posted - 2006.11.02 10:52:00 - [496]
     

    Originally by: Bramson
    Myrmidon
    With the new BC for Caldari which is more like a CARACAL and a mini Raven - you would think it would have the normal % bonus to kinetic missile damage and missile velocity bonus. Giving it the 5% shield per level as well is pretty extreme ;).


    The Raven does not get a kinetic missile damage bonus.

    Originally by: Old Geeza

    Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective.



    If you're that paranoid, reduce the ROF bonus, but don't be a sick and evil fiend and reduce it to being a purely kinetic based platform. Doing that effectively makes the ship useless as everyone knows to tank kinetic damage when fighting people in those ships.

    Of course, I don't know if you including the reload times in your damage calculations...

    Originally by: Kapitanleutnant Mei

    replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important



    I'd go along with that one happily! I don't mind having a weak tank if I have the damage output to make up for it, which I thought was the POINT of the tier 2 battlecruisers...

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.02 11:18:00 - [497]
     

    Originally by: Nyxus
    The real question is simple:

    Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?

    Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.

    Well. its technically a better long-range ship from 0 to 15km. After 15km the Hurricane soundly outdamages it.

    Soooo... not really much of a reason.

    Theron Gyrow
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    Posted - 2006.11.02 12:37:00 - [498]
     

    Originally by: Theron Gyrow
    Originally by: Packtu'sa
    The 5% shield resistance bonus of the Drake and the 7.5% armor repair bonus of the Myrmidon are almost identical, with the exception of the Myrmidon being more active than the Drake's ultra-passive shield tank (which only works against relatively low and steady damage, like that of NPCs).



    The other way round, the repair bonus is only useful for low and steady damage.

    At max skills, the +25 resistance is equal to the following bonuses:
    +33.3% to shield size
    (which results in +33.3% better shield recharge)
    +33.3% to shield boost

    For Drake, the bonus is a bit better than a free large T2 extender (with the 50% bonus) plus a shield boost amplifier. Oh, and a 33.3% bonus to any actual extenders fitted.

    For Myrmidon, the 37.5% bonus is equal to 0.75 times a small repper that doesn't use cap (times the actual med reppers present).

    I wouldn't call that identical.


    Quoting myself, but what the hey...

    Did the calcs, and the result when comparing 25% armor resistance bonus with 37.5% armor boost bonus (shield regeneration would muck the situation a lot) was:

    When the incoming damage exceeds the unmodified repair capability by 50%, the bonuses are equal. Above that, resistance bonus always gives you longer life.

    On MAR II with max skills, the point is at about 54 DoT after resistances. If the damage is resisted at 70% (not a bad tank), that's 180 pure DoT. With shields, the effective bonus to passive recharge would mean that the passive bonus would start to dominate even earlier.

    Of course, one bonus needs an active module and the other is useful in every situation.

    To summarise: if you are in a cruiser with one med repper with about 70% resistances, you are better off with the repair bonus if you are against 1-3 frigs. In every other case, resistance bonus wins. Evil or Very Mad

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.11.02 13:23:00 - [499]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Originally by: Nyxus
    The real question is simple:

    Why would I fly a Harbinger over a Hurricane, assuming sp are the same for both ships?

    Can anyone give me a good reason? Because atm I can't think of one. Heck, Hurricane is looks better too.

    Well. its technically a better long-range ship from 0 to 15km. After 15km the Hurricane soundly outdamages it.

    Soooo... not really much of a reason.


    from 0 to 15km is not that long range :P

    also with more drones and laser with higher range i don't see how hurr it can outdamage it outside 15km...

    using arties vs beam i think the harbringer should do more dmg/gun, if so then there is no way an hurrican can outdamage it (again similar config)

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.02 13:40:00 - [500]
     

    Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36
    Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal.

    And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period.

    With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless.

    Take a look:

    Short-Range
    Long-Range

    Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv.

    Peppy LePew
    Posted - 2006.11.02 14:26:00 - [501]
     

    I know EVE is about PvP but... I honestly don't think these ships were designed for head to head PvP. And I also don't think any of them will be effective at it. Or at least no more than the existing BCs.

    Big like battleships, yet less damaging, I see the current and the upcoming battlecruisers as easy-to-afford and effective PvE ships, possibly a stepping-stone to battleships and definitely a stepping stone to command ships. They are fat, and lack firepower, none of them can easily dictate range. They have no EWAR bonuses whatsoever. Yes, they can use multiple gang modules to be helpful in fleet vs fleet situations, but otherwise why would you fly one in PvP other than "for a challenge"?

    I ask this due to most of the complaints in this topic being directly in question of these ships' PvP capabilities (often comparing them against eachother). But how often will this actually happen? Because I do not see them as anything more than gang support outside of PvE.

    Now that I've said my peace on that subject... some other stuff:

    Command Ship prices are unimportant, and a silly comparison. Even if the new BCs do the SAME damage as a Command Ship, Commands are still far superior gang support, as they were meant to be. If they do become less useful their prices will simply drop.

    T2 HAMs may be too good, maybe not. But compare them with other T2 ammo. If anything, you will never in a million years create a sniping platform out of a Drake Confused. In fact a Ferox is a better choice for long range PvP even with it's pathetic (read: zero) damage bonus. And last I checked it took a single defender missile to pop a Heavy Missile, anyone tested this with HAMs? And yes I know defenders will not be viable from close ranges but they definitely are useful at 30kms and above, and shorter distances without lag. Given long enough range, I have no doubts a single rocket launcher with defenders will allow you to pop 3 heavy missiles out of the 7 a Drake can fire.

    Giving the Myrm a 125m3 drone bay.. It won't be overpowered and maybe the Gallente will be happy so go for it. But not any bigger, why would you want another big, slow drone ship? If you do make it bigger, give it some less versatility and make it better at drones than with guns, but not a weird combination of both, IMO. (But hey, maybe that's what it was meant to be?)

    The capacitor drain of the Amarr ship is worse than that of other Amarr ships how? I sympathize with the complaint but I see it as a problem with Amarr ships in general, not necessarily a problem with the Harbinger. Even the ships with laser capacitor use bonuses are still cap hogs if I understand correctly.

    What about the Drake? It's going to need those resists if it intends to use HAMs at all. It can't fit a good active tank with HAMSs because it will absolutely need to MWD, probably with nanos and probably also a web just to keep it's target in range. Yes, just like a blaster ship yet unlike a gun ship it is NOT viable for long range. Even if you see one target you, you have plenty of time to warp out before those missiles reach you. Don't change the Drake, pretty please? Nobody has made a valid complaint about it so it must be perfect, now buff the other BCs if anything, thanks!

    I wish I had more to say but it's early and brain is still half asleep. You may now poke and prod me at your liesure.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.11.02 14:37:00 - [502]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36
    Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal.

    And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period.

    With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless.

    Take a look:

    Short-Range
    Long-Range

    Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv.


    if you look at t2 ammos the picture is quite different, for long range no need to look at t1 as they are quite inferior

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.02 14:48:00 - [503]
     

    I'm not going to consider T2 ammo as 1) it should not be a necessity to fit T2 ammo to compete and 2) the whole of T2 ammo balance/stats is up in the air right now.

    Steppa
    Gallente
    Posted - 2006.11.02 15:05:00 - [504]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Originally by: Packtu'sa
    If it cant compete toe-to-toe with the ishtar, then its pointless as a battlecruiser.


    As a dedicated Ishtar pilot (I own four), this should be where a drone battlecruiser's capabilities BEGIN. When you are talking about the race who made drones their "thing", you have to consider that a pilot heavily skilled at drone use is going to use them as his primary weaponry. All drone boats should get a drone bonus (damage or tracking or speed)and a drone bay volume bonus. I would sacrifice turret slots to be able to tank and fly my wings of drones. If the argument is then, "well, its just a bigger Ishtar", then FINE!!! However, in the interest of diversity, I wouldn't mind a drone/turret hybrid, but the drone bay bonus needs to stay.

    If you really want to make it useful, make the bonuses reflect the way most Ishtar pilots fly their ships...give us an mwd or ab bonus and tie it to increased drone bay volume. Most of us try to "get under the guns" and pound away with drones anyway.

    SmokeDog
    Nex Exercitus
    Raiden.
    Posted - 2006.11.02 18:46:00 - [505]
     

    Ugh.. Kinetic Missile Damage bonus would kill the Drake.. it's fine as it is, it's very much in line with the other battlecruisers right now. Don't turn it into a 50mil isk Caracal..

    I think both the Harb and Hurricane are insanely powerful, without the ROF bonus the Drake would become total garbage.. It does less DPS and has very poor range so why take away its resistance bonus? It would be quite easily picked apart without it since it lacks the DPS of the other tier2 battlecruisers, even with the "uber" HAMs.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.02 19:55:00 - [506]
     

    Needs more testing, but I don't think there's anything particularly "overpowered" about the drake.

    Sure, it can mount a really, really strong tank and still do very good damage, but when it does that it'll have at most a scrambler.

    Not really that hard a target to wear down.

    If it actually tries to dictate range, then its tank gets progressively weaker...

    SmokeDog
    Nex Exercitus
    Raiden.
    Posted - 2006.11.02 20:03:00 - [507]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Needs more testing, but I don't think there's anything particularly "overpowered" about the drake.

    Sure, it can mount a really, really strong tank and still do very good damage, but when it does that it'll have at most a scrambler.

    Not really that hard a target to wear down.

    If it actually tries to dictate range, then its tank gets progressively weaker...


    I don't think fitting a MWD on a Drake is realistic, too massive, not enough mids if you want to put up a shield tank, it won't give you enough speed to get into range quickly enough and by the time you do your cap will be dead, and it's a fitting nightmare. I am pretty sure 7x HAM II, an Injector, and a 10mn MWD II isn't going to fit without some serious low slot gimpage.

    You'll have to just depend on javelins or use heavy launchers on it.. I do think HAM range needs increased a tad.

    Messing with the resistance bonus would be ******ed, imo.. I don't see any reason to swap it with a weaker bonus.

    Goumindong
    SniggWaffe
    Posted - 2006.11.02 21:48:00 - [508]
     

    Edited by: Goumindong on 02/11/2006 23:09:13
    Originally by: keepiru
    Edited by: keepiru on 02/11/2006 13:43:36
    Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal.

    And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period.

    With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless.

    Take a look:

    Short-Range
    Long-Range

    Notes: that Ferox in the graph has 7 turrets, the Brutix can't really fit 250mm IIs, and its also missing a plate in an Ion II setup, when Harbi and Hurri have to drop plate only to fit neutron-equiv.


    model it using Phased Plasma M range. Despite having less total damage than EMP M, Phased Plasma M does more damage to Armor than EMP, and almost as much on shields [1.2% less]

    Sniser
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2006.11.02 22:54:00 - [509]
     

    Originally by: keepiru

    Now, on with the graphs!

    Current Situation:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


    those screens are incorrect hurricane isnt using their drones. but harbringer is using them. If you add drones to hurricane they have a lot more high dps

    Nyxus
    Amarr
    Fat J
    -Mostly Harmless-
    Posted - 2006.11.02 23:42:00 - [510]
     

    Edited by: Nyxus on 02/11/2006 23:54:39
    Edited by: Nyxus on 02/11/2006 23:43:37
    Originally by: keepiru
    Comparing the Hurricane w. Arty vs. the Harbinger w. Beam there, after 15.5km the Hurricane out-damages the Harbinger, thanks to negligible falloff on beams and having the same optimal.

    And that's only because EMP does 22hp, if it was 24 it would probably out-damage the Harbinger period.

    With short-range guns, the Harbinger out-damages the Hurricane past web range, but that's kinda pointless.

    Take a look:

    Short-Range
    Long-Range


    So let us see if I have this straight-

    Hurricane pros:
    • Better close and long range DPS
    • More speed
    • More CPU after fitted weapons
    • More Grid after fitted weapons
    • Lower Sig
    • Better Tank due to non-cap using weapons
    • Better sensor strength
    • Less mass
    • Better Agility
    • Better weapon damage types
    • Ability to change damage types


    Harbinger Pros:
    • 50 more dps between 7km & 15.5km


    Have I missed anything here? Does this look remotely balanced? Is it any wonder I am training up projectiles as we speak?

    Nyxus


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