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Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.31 11:14:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: keepiru
Good stuff


Thank you for the helpful graphs that illustrate that the Drake is not going to kill everything that comes within 15km.

Kalhystia
Posted - 2006.10.31 13:07:00 - [452]
 

Originally by: keepiru
No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.

Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.


Well, donīt get me wrong, if the Myrmidon gets 250m3 drone bay I wonīt complain; I perfectly agree that it should be able to wield heavy drones.

But, just by doing that, you allow a BC to weild same drone power than a dominix; now I donīt even say the DPS would be overpowered or anything, but I think it is a bit unreasonnable to ask for such a large dronebay. Mediums arenīt that bad, the are far faster to reach distant targets, track lighter ships but have less HP yes.

Now, if you successfully convince Tuxford to increase the Myrmidon dronebay to wield 2 waves of 5 heavies drones, fine, I will light a candle for you in the lost and dusty pantheon of the Gallente heroes Twisted Evil.

ClogMan
Caldari
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2006.10.31 13:10:00 - [453]
 

Can any tell me a bit about the Drakes damageoutput with HAL's and diff. ammo types?

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.31 13:17:00 - [454]
 

Originally by: keepiru


Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it.


You don't think that 7/4/7 would be better, as it would be more "amarr like" and would provide more fitting flexibility?


Originally by: keepiru
No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.

Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.


Might be a bit too much, 175m3 would give it the same drone space as a typhoon and a bit of flexibility. In any case the issue of preventing the DPS from the guns from adding up too much damage to this ship still has to be dealt with, it would seem that the PG on the ship would have to be decreased I would think. Also, 8 high slots is about 2 too many, but another lowslot would come in handy.

Alek Row
Minmatar
Silent Step
Posted - 2006.10.31 13:18:00 - [455]
 

Originally by: keepiru

You're damned right it would, the Harbinger:
  • has a MUCH harder time fitting guns

  • is slower

  • has a larger signature radius

  • has about 60% of the tracking

  • has no choice in damage type

  • has a 14cap/sec draw with HP II (cannot be fit with MWD Injector and Rep) or 11cap/sec with focused pulse - this is in theory counterbalanced by a whole 0.694* better cap recharge Laughing - on top of the repper and mwd




  • ONLY when comparing Pulses and ACs, there is Artillery and Beams too, and this 2 weapon systems have exactly the same cap requirements.

  • And? That's not new when comparing Amarr and Minmatar ships. Harbinger still have a lower sig than the Drake.

  • And the Harbinger is the second fastest bc. Drake and Myrmidon are slower than the Harbinger.

  • For some reason the Harbinger have a better drone bay. Use the different damage types.

  • Cap problems. Yep you do. You don't have reloads too (only thing I can say for that one, it's a lame thing to say, I know, but cap problems are not a new thing for Amarr).


  • No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo.

    Alex Harumichi
    Gallente
    Gradient
    Electus Matari
    Posted - 2006.10.31 13:18:00 - [456]
     

    Originally by: Kalhystia


    Well, donīt get me wrong, if the Myrmidon gets 250m3 drone bay I wonīt complain; I perfectly agree that it should be able to wield heavy drones.

    But, just by doing that, you allow a BC to weild same drone power than a dominix; now I donīt even say the DPS would be overpowered or anything, but I think it is a bit unreasonnable to ask for such a large dronebay.


    Not at all. As has been noted before, drones are only part of the equation of Dominix DPS, a huge part comes from guns. We're comparing:

    5 x medium guns with no damage bonus

    vs

    6 x large guns with +5% per level damage bonus

    That's a huge difference, and one one that pushes Dominix damage to "battleship level" while keeping the Myrm at "battlecruiser level".

    Medium drones just flat-out do not give enough DPS for a battlecruiser's primary weapon system, unless you give them enough damage bonus to make them near-equal to heavy drones -- which *would* be unbalanced.

    Various calculations have shown that the Myrmidon DPS would be just barely adaquate vs the other tier2's even with 5 heavy drones. There is no balance problem there.

    The only balance problem with drone boats in general has been the broken state of ECM. With that more of less fixed in Kali, drone boats need to do adaquate DPS in order to compete, they can't do the nosfe+drones+ECM trick anymore.

    Personally I'd be willing to lose one turret slot, or even two, if someone thought that would be needed to compensate (I don't, personally, but...). But the Myrmidon needs 5 heavy drones + spares (or alternatively more than 5 drones to control, but I don't see that happening).

    It would be interesting to get some dev feedback at some point. The general consensus here seems to be that the Myrmidon is clearly lacking, the other bcs are more or less in the right ballpark (but may also need some tweaking).

    I think the simplest fix is just to increase the drone bay to the 200m3 ballpark, and maybe remove one turret if needs be. Then test some more.

    Udyr Vulpayne
    Amarr
    PIE Inc.
    Posted - 2006.10.31 14:04:00 - [457]
     

    Originally by: Alek Row

    No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo.



    it would have better RAW-dps then the others. and compared to a drone, ac or missile boat it should have the best raw dps by far. simply because this raw dps will turn into a much lower number once you factor in resists and because lasers in contrast to drones, projectiles and missiles do use cap. a lot of it actually. seeing how kali will bring a hp boost for ships/plates/extenders fights will last longer there and cap management will become much more important. being able to use a capless weapon system is not just a slight advantage. its a rather big one. i for one would gladly trade my no-ammo consumption in for a zero-cap-using laser. no ammo use is really more a pve advantage anyway.

    sure with the longer fights with kali you may have to reload a few times to get through a harbingers hitpoints. on the other side you have the harbinger using his cap for ammo. cap booster charges are slightly larger than projectile ammo and thereby limit the number of times a laser using ship can reload by a lot.

    also note that once you do start to use t2 crystals our ammo does get used up. only we dont get the opportunity to bring just a few hundred rounds per gun. each crystal equals 1000 pieces of ammo. if we want to bring t2 ammo for 7 guns for both short and long range we need to buy 14000 rounds worth. and thats not including the possibility that they could run out while your at it.


    Nyxus
    Amarr
    Fat J
    -Mostly Harmless-
    Posted - 2006.10.31 14:49:00 - [458]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25
    Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win.

    Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon.

    Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here:

  • The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med.

  • The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Razz


  • Now, on with the graphs!

    Current Situation:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


    Originally by: keepiru
    Originally by: Tiuwaz
    your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns


    You're damned right it would, the Harbinger:

  • has a MUCH harder time fitting guns

  • is slower

  • has a larger signature radius

  • has about 60% of the tracking

  • has no choice in damage type

  • has a 14cap/sec draw with HP II (cannot be fit with MWD Injector and Rep) or 11cap/sec with focused pulse - this is in theory counterbalanced by a whole 0.694* better cap recharge Laughing - on top of the repper and mwd


  • Just for comparison, a T2 Med Rep draws 17.7 cap/sec. Rolling Eyes



    QFT. The Harbinger needs an 8th turret slot and the grid to fit it. Otherwise, why would I ever chooose it over the Hurricane? There are a lot of negatives to being Amarr, how about some positives to balance it out?

    I don't think its too much to ask.

    Nyxus


    Alek Row
    Minmatar
    Silent Step
    Posted - 2006.10.31 15:15:00 - [459]
     

    Edited by: Alek Row on 31/10/2006 15:15:39
    Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

    Stuff...



    Factoring resists, that ac ammo and cap will not be enough for that battle, that drones can be shoot at, that everybody have the same amount of skillpoints and that everybody will fit their ship in the exact same way are predictions. Battles can happen with millions of possibilites and different endings, depending of fittings, specializations, ammo type, tank type, drone types, distance to the battle, and so on... And that's what can give you the edge in a battle.

    And because of all that, I still think that no ship should have a better RAW-Dps than all others at ALL Ranges.

    And with all due respect to Udyr or Nyxus, but asking for a IWIN BC against all other BCs because "there are a lot of negatives to being Amarr", it surelly does not seem a good way to balance the Race as a whole. I still think that Harbinger should have a better tank, but for what I see on the graphs posted, DPS seems already balanced.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 15:16:00 - [460]
     

    Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 15:17:51
    Originally by: Kai Lae
    Originally by: keepiru


    Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it.


    You don't think that 7/4/7 would be better, as it would be more "amarr like" and would provide more fitting flexibility?

    Either works, but if you swap the utility for a low - I fragging hate utility slots, turn it into something actually useful either way - it needs a good cap boost.

    Either way:

    Harbinger w. HP II: 419MW left
    Harbinger w. FMP II: 1043.4MW left

    Hurricane w. 425mm II: 779.8MW left
    Hurricane w. 220mm II: 1057MW left

    Perphaps its time to bring HP II grid requirements down to be mroe in line with FMP II, as was done for Heavy Neutrons last time around? From a DPS POV, FMP IIs are mid-tier guns...

    Originally by: Kai Lae
    Originally by: keepiru
    No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.

    Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.


    Might be a bit too much, 175m3 would give it the same drone space as a typhoon and a bit of flexibility. In any case the issue of preventing the DPS from the guns from adding up too much damage to this ship still has to be dealt with, it would seem that the PG on the ship would have to be decreased I would think. Also, 8 high slots is about 2 too many, but another lowslot would come in handy.

    But the EOS has 300m3, and the Ishtar has 275m3... no, I don't think 175m3 is nearly enough.

    This is a ship that has to compete with HACs and other BCs, not just swat cruisers around. You risk ending with the same situation as the NH, a ship that fails at playing on the same level as its peers.
    Originally by: Alek Row
  • ONLY when comparing Pulses and ACs, there is Artillery and Beams too, and this 2 weapon systems have exactly the same cap requirements.

  • And? That's not new when comparing Amarr and Minmatar ships. Harbinger still have a lower sig than the Drake.

  • And the Harbinger is the second fastest bc. Drake and Myrmidon are slower than the Harbinger.

  • For some reason the Harbinger have a better drone bay. Use the different damage types.

  • Cap problems. Yep you do. You don't have reloads too (only thing I can say for that one, it's a lame thing to say, I know, but cap problems are not a new thing for Amarr).


  • No ship should be an IWIN button, and your second graph shows the Harbinger as an IWIN button against all other Battlecruisers. Your 1st graph is WAY MORE balanced than the second one imo. I would understand a tanking bonus or a 7th low slot on the Harbinger, but better DPS than all other BCs at any range??? That's not balanced at all imo.

    Artillery and beams you say? Indeed, the Harbinger fits HB IIs easyer than the Hurricane fits 720mmm IIs.

    However, take this into consideration.

    7x 720mm IIs, cap draw: 0.
    7x Heavy Beams IIs, cap draw: 20cap/sec.

    I'll let you imagine how long your cap will last when firing beams. Hint: You'll cap out way before you kill your target, unless you're popping frigs. BTW, reload time is factored into the damage/time graphs already.

    The bottom line is, right now the Harbinger and Hurricane are pretty similar, but the Harbinger is essentially worse in every respect, if not by much.

    I'm proposing to give it the ability to outdamage the Hurricane, but with unchanged fittings and cap. I'm sure you can see that hardly makes for a pwnmobile with the lenght of fights in Kali.

    The other option is to swap the utility for a low and give it a cap boost, so while being larger, slower and with worse tracking and worse overall cap, it will have the ability to tank more.

    Alek Row
    Minmatar
    Silent Step
    Posted - 2006.10.31 15:28:00 - [461]
     

    Originally by: keepiru

    The other option is to swap the utility for a low and give it a cap boost, so while being larger, slower and with worse tracking and worse overall cap, it will have the ability to tank more.


    And that's the option I like for the Harbinger.

    In your first option you're out-DPSing everybody at all ranges, not only Hurricane.
    About Beams and Artillery you're right, but I think that's why Beams have way more DPS than Arties, is this correct? ( Nope, I'm not an EvE expert, only 4.5m sp at the moment Wink )

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 15:53:00 - [462]
     

    I'd expect the Harbinger outdamages the Hurricane w. long-range weapons, yes (up to a certain range when the 720s actually pull ahead).

    The brutix would come close if it had the grid to 250mm IIs (and outrange the harbinger by a chunk too), but tux still hasn't given in to my pestering about letting gallente sub-battleships fit proper sized guns without a bendover, like the thron does.

    However, artillery is very much under discussion right now - a 50% hp boost is a direct nerf to alpha-strike and a dps boost of some sort is not unlikely. I will wait and see what happens in that respect... either way, the Hurricane is the ship I will be flying for PVP.

    Aramendel
    Amarr
    Queens of the Stone Age
    Black Legion.
    Posted - 2006.10.31 15:56:00 - [463]
     

    Edited by: Aramendel on 31/10/2006 16:03:25
    Actually, weapon vs weapon ACs autodamage pulses (with the first shipbonus). At a lower range, of cource. But the hurricane has a speed advantage and can control it. The reason the Harbringer has more dps lies in it's bigger drone bay.

    And, yes, higher speed and lower sig are typical minmatar advantages. But that does not make them invalid for comparing the ships. And there are also problems there. For which race would you say is "tanking" a typical advantage? And hurriance can fit a better tank than the Harbringer - it has more grid left after ACs and does not need to use cap to sustain it's weapon fire. The higher caprecharge of the harbringer is only enough to counter about 15% of the total capdrain of 7 heavy pulse 2 at peak recharge.

    Alek Row
    Minmatar
    Silent Step
    Posted - 2006.10.31 16:41:00 - [464]
     

    Edited by: Alek Row on 31/10/2006 17:31:37
    Edited by: Alek Row on 31/10/2006 16:42:49
    Originally by: Aramendel
    And hurriance <-Evil or Very Mad can fit a better tank than the Harbringer - it has more grid left after ACs and does not need to use cap to sustain it's weapon fire. The higher caprecharge of the harbringer is only enough to counter about 15% of the total capdrain of 7 heavy pulse 2 at peak recharge.


    I have to agree, that's why I think the Harbinger could use a better tank, or a 7th low slot with more cap or a tanking bonus (don't know how this *bonus change* would be accepted by the Amarr Comunity tbh).

    About the Hurricane speed and the fact that it is an advantage, I think that some people will shield tank the Hurricane in PVP with nanos and gyros in lows, not leaving room for a web in the mids. I know I'm only making assumptions now...

    With 4 mids, both ships can be bit impredictable on their fittings, we have a nice array of modules to install in the 4 mids, and with a 75m3 drone bay the Harbinger can even put 3 webfier drones too per example (maybe it's a really dumb ideia, I don't know how much this drones really web or if they are really usefull). Because of this *not-so-vast-but-not-so-small* array of choices in the way we can fit the ship, modules/drones can balance one battle for one side or the other, and because of that no BC should out-DPS all others at all ranges by default... that's what I meant. Sorry for repeating myself. Wink

    Edit: Only 50m3 Drone Bay on the Harbinger, sry, my mistake, thanks Keepiru.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 17:18:00 - [465]
     

    50m3 IIRC.

    Blind Man
    Caldari
    Blue Republic
    RvB - BLUE Republic
    Posted - 2006.10.31 17:46:00 - [466]
     

    Edited by: Blind Man on 31/10/2006 17:46:28
    these are t1 ships people...Shocked at those graphs..

    /me hits self for training command ships 5 Confused

    Areconus
    Posted - 2006.10.31 22:45:00 - [467]
     


    Originally by: Tiuwaz
    Originally by: keepiru

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


    your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns

    myrmidon would only do a little less dps at a small spot around the 5km mark, everwhere else it would do equal/superior damage while having a much better tank

    your first graph with the current stats looks a lot more balanced to me



    /agreed

    Aramendel
    Amarr
    Queens of the Stone Age
    Black Legion.
    Posted - 2006.10.31 23:10:00 - [468]
     

    Originally by: Alek Row
    I have to agree, that's why I think the Harbinger could use a better tank, or a 7th low slot with more cap or a tanking bonus (don't know how this *bonus change* would be accepted by the Amarr Comunity tbh).


    The the dps would fall significantly below every other tier 2 BC. It's not really a solution.

    Quote:
    About the Hurricane speed and the fact that it is an advantage, I think that some people will shield tank the Hurricane in PVP with nanos and gyros in lows, not leaving room for a web in the mids. I know I'm only making assumptions now...


    People being stupid and trying to use the Hurrican as big vaga (which won't really work) is not exactly a balance argument.

    Quote:
    With 4 mids, both ships can be bit impredictable on their fittings, we have a nice array of modules to install in the 4 mids, and with a 75m3 drone bay the Harbinger can even put 3 webfier drones too per example (maybe it's a really dumb ideia, I don't know how much this drones really web or if they are really usefull).


    Apart from the 50mģ there is this problem that web drones get killed really really fast by medium-small weapons. Or enemy drones.

    Noriath
    Posted - 2006.10.31 23:16:00 - [469]
     

    I think the Myrmidon is the ultimate proof for the fact that having the amount of drones a ship can launch and the amount of drones a ship can carry be the same basic stat is not a very good system.

    Ships should have a number of controll points that limit the number of drones they can launch, and the bay should be independent from that, so that you can have a carrier that uses medium drones without having to ruin its ability to have backups so it doesn't launch heavies instead...

    Nebuli
    Caldari
    Capital Construction Research
    Pioneer Alliance
    Posted - 2006.10.31 23:34:00 - [470]
     

    Originally by: Noriath
    I think the Myrmidon is the ultimate proof for the fact that having the amount of drones a ship can launch and the amount of drones a ship can carry be the same basic stat is not a very good system.

    Ships should have a number of controll points that limit the number of drones they can launch, and the bay should be independent from that, so that you can have a carrier that uses medium drones without having to ruin its ability to have backups so it doesn't launch heavies instead...


    Huh?

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.10.31 23:53:00 - [471]
     

    hurricane don't work well as a bigger vaga... the ship is too slow and cumbersome tried for fun to fit nanos and a phoon works waaaay better :P

    still i don't see all this thing about hurricane with better fitting/tank than harbringer

    425mm vs focused pulse gives almost same dps with focused with more range, more fitting, more base tank...

    hurricane have to fit 220mm to get a similar fitting/tanking and this impact a bit both the range and dps...

    when i saw first comments about harb i tought that something went wrong in its design, but more i look into it and more it seem a fine ship to me...

    dps is good, speed is good, tankage is good, range is good, the only real weakness is the cap... but is also an amarr ship

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.01 01:24:00 - [472]
     

    220mm have the same range as 425... well, possibly a few hundred m less optimal but you still have 8km falloff so *shrug*

    When you do that the Hurricane (which is faster and more agile, and dictates range) can easily get into the range sweetspot where it is both doing more damage, and way below your optimal using your weaker tracking against you.

    And of course, since it has more cap play with, gets hit less and has the same number of lowslots and you both lack a tank bonus, it tanks better.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.11.01 01:38:00 - [473]
     

    there is not really a range sweetspot for the hurricane

    harbringer have more range and even at close range the dps is veery similar...

    so you can't do as with a blasterboat where you (try) to keep distance to reduce his dps...

    this is the benefit that longer range gives to harbringer

    hur vs har as said i will prefer to stay in the hur, but simply because it will perform overall better in this situation, not cause the 2 ships are umbalanced


    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.01 02:15:00 - [474]
     

    Edited by: keepiru on 01/11/2006 02:20:58
    I'm sorry, but thats not true. Take a look, and keep in mind this doesn't even include the effect of tracking: 220mm II vs. FPM II

    And before you ask, no, it doesn't change much at all with secondary weapons, see here

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.11.01 02:44:00 - [475]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Edited by: keepiru on 01/11/2006 02:20:58
    I'm sorry, but thats not true. Take a look, and keep in mind this doesn't even include the effect of tracking: 220mm II vs. FPM II

    And before you ask, no, it doesn't change much at all with secondary weapons, see here


    but in your second graph they have no more a similar setup...

    hurricane is using the heavy assault the harbringer have a nos...

    personaly i'll take the nos over the HAM, imo is waaaay more benefical in short range combat

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.01 03:10:00 - [476]
     

    Yeah but:

    Harb w. Nos, Hurricane w/out nos: Advantage Hurricane, still has more cap for tank, does more damage.

    Harb and Hurricane both w. Nos: Advantage Hurricane, does very similar damage with way more cap for tank.

    Kai Lae
    Gallente
    Shiva
    Morsus Mihi
    Posted - 2006.11.01 03:41:00 - [477]
     

    Originally by: keepiru


    But the EOS has 300m3, and the Ishtar has 275m3... no, I don't think 175m3 is nearly enough.





    Ishtar is 375m3 w/ max skills. It's one of the things that I find annoying about the Eos - for a drone ship, it doesn't do a very good job of it.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.01 03:51:00 - [478]
     

    And anything less than 250m3 will make the Myrm a decent drone boat how? Laughing

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.11.01 04:38:00 - [479]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Yeah but:

    Harb w. Nos, Hurricane w/out nos: Advantage Hurricane, still has more cap for tank, does more damage.

    Harb and Hurricane both w. Nos: Advantage Hurricane, does very similar damage with way more cap for tank.


    mmmm hurr vs har i think hurr have most of its advantage in res...

    hur and harb both with nos i bet on the hur...

    hur with missile, harb with nos... imo is way closer

    but my point was mostly that HAM vs nos is a fair tradeoff and looking at the graph with hur using HAM you should take that into account...

    as said imho the 2 ships are quite balanced and they shine in different situations and against different enemies...

    also i'm not saying that they are perfectly balanced, the hur can be overall a bit better, but imo not to the point to make the ship really umbalanced and for sure not to the degree i read in this topic (expecially on some of the firsts posts)...

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.11.01 04:41:00 - [480]
     

    Well, I still say at the very least that 7th high needs to move to the lows =P

    And they better fix the model so the 7th gun doesn't make it look lopsided anymore =P


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