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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:44:00 - [421]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 30/10/2006 19:52:35
Originally by: Ath Amon
Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups.

the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.



yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance

harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res.

still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb

so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational



It has "20% more tankage"

Which is true if you consider the resists equal, where the Hurricanes armor resists are actualy about 20% better than the Harbingers[10% bonus to EM resists = 25% less EM damage, 10% bonus to explosive resists = 12.2% less explosive damage]

Harbingers also dont really have more range, well it only does if the Harb if sitting a MWD and the opponent is not, and the Harb neither has the fitting ease, or capacitor ease to do so. The Harbinger is not paticularly fast and has no way to dictate range like the Hurricane does, not like it matters if your optimal is under web range anyway.

One thing i think you are forgetting about the fact that no, Focused Medium Pulses really arent close to 425's

FMP II DPS Multiplier = .5926
425 II DPS Multiplier = .616

Now what happens when with 1 level of BC to 5 levels of BC

425 II DPS Multiplier BC1 = .6468
425 II DPS Multiplier BC2 = .6776
425 II DPS Multiplier BC3 = .7084
425 II DPS Multiplier BC4 = .7392
425 II DPS Multiplier BC5 = .77

Looking at 425's against Focused Medium Pulses and figuring out how much more damage the 425's do in a percentage amount at each level of Battlecruiser.

BC 1 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 9.1%
BC 2 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 14.3%
BC 3 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 19.5%
BC 4 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 24.7%
BC 5 % Damage Difference in favor of 425's = 29.9%

Now in exhcange for this very large damage difference, the hurricane is smaller, faster, doesnt use cap on its guns, has a better tank, and will have about 300 PG less than you to fit things other than weapons.

Oops, its a shame that that 300 PG is irrelevent because at AWU 0, the Hurricane can still fit a 1600 plate, MAR II, and AB II/MWD, but doesnt give you the ability to fit two 1600 plates+reppers/AB.

I dont know what "faster/harder to hit/takes less damage/doesnt use capacitor to fire guns/does more damage" means to you, but to me, it means "better"

edit: Rigs make the damage come back into place a bit, but still leave the Hurricane with better damage if it also fits one rig, and it certianly can.

+ the whole not using cap thing.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.30 20:46:00 - [422]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26
Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until.

  • EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M

  • You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this

  • You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this


  • Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s.

    Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.10.30 20:48:00 - [423]
     

    Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42
    EM dmg is not that common in close range...

    also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right...

    the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range

    also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical.

    (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos)

    later i'll post a graph (now can't :( )

    also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :)


    Tek'a Rain
    Gallente
    Collegium Mechanicae
    Posted - 2006.10.30 20:53:00 - [424]
     

    why do folk keep proclaiming that removing the damamge modifier for drones is a magic fix? take away the bonus and suddenly the ship that was almost, barely, approximatly as hard hitting as the vexor is now much less so, while still being crippled and nerfed for its class and size.. silly, just silly.

    Brechan Skene
    Posted - 2006.10.30 21:25:00 - [425]
     

    This is just a suggestion for the Galante teir 2 BC.
    Alter the drone damage/hitpoints bonus to effect only light and medium drones.
    Change the armour bonus to a +1 drone contol per lvl.
    Change drone capacity to 200m3.
    Also add this. It can not hold heavy drones.
    Keep the rest the same.
    Flame suit on.


    Goumindong
    SniggWaffe
    Posted - 2006.10.30 21:26:00 - [426]
     

    Edited by: Goumindong on 30/10/2006 21:55:19
    Originally by: Ath Amon
    Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 20:48:42
    EM dmg is not that common in close range...

    also the range is way better, around 2x if i remember right...

    the difference in dps at BC5 is compensated by better drone dps, i looked at graph and as said in the other post is very similar with harbringer who have better range

    also harb is slower than a hurr but is faster than a brutix so is not that slow compared to other bcs and against cruisers that are generally faster its higher range should be quite benefical.

    (of course i'm speaking with similar config with both ships with 1 nos)

    later i'll post a graph (now can't :( )

    also with rigs that increase turret dps at the cost of PG is not that bad to have a bit more pg :)




    1. DPS multiplier is relevent because

    A: Lasers have worse tracking than other guns[FMP has 30% worse tracking than 425 II
    B: Range is irrelevent unless the ship can dictate its range, which the very slow Harbinger cannot, especialy since the range it needs to dictate is under web rage with pulse weapons.
    C: Ammo and Crystals [t1 at least] do similar damage at equal ranges modifications.

    The difference at BC 5 is compensated by better drone DPS when the harbinger is using Heavy Pulses and the Hurricane is using 220's

    Rigs would be great, but even with rigs, the 425's do better than the FMP's with 3 rigs, if the 425 has 1 rig. So the Hurricane has 2 other slots to fit with things like an 8% PG rig [And then the Harbingers PG fitting bonus is gone and the Hurricane is ahead by 15 PG in absolute terms(1890 to 1875)] So now the Hurricane is using less PG for guns, doing more damage, has an extra rig slot it can use, and has more absolute powergrid. If the Harbinger doesnt fit three gun rigs, it does less damage than the Hurricane.

    And the Hurricane is still faster, smaller, and doesnt need to use cap to fire its guns.

    Edit: The Hurricane can fit 7 425 II's, 1 Medium Cap Injector II, 1 MWD I, 2 MAR II's with 24 PG left over, 9 PG left over with a MWD II, which is enough for a EANMII/DC tank[5] a damage mod II [1], and two mid slots [2] = 8 PG for 1 PG left. With Engineering V, and AWU 0.

    With AWU 5, you have 108 PG left over, good enough for two gun rigs[5% each] and a third utility rig.

    You cant fit a 425II/1600plate set up without an 8 PG rig/or fitting boost. You are short about 40 PG. With an 5-8% boost[from a rig], you have about 40-95 PG free, which will fit you one gun rig for your 425 II's and a utility rig + your EANM/DC tank and the rest of your mid slots.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.30 21:48:00 - [427]
     

    Well, T2 ammo wont be so common anymore after the nuuurfs, so Autocannons will have to fight against 24hp MF M with EMP M (22hp) or Phased Plasma M (20hp).

    So damage figures which don't take this into account fail @ reality.

    Also, thanks to the ludicrous rof of Auto's, reload time puts a considerable dent in your dps in any real 1-on-1, especially with the 50% HP boost. So much so that 425mm ACs had to have their clip size boosted because they actually did less dps than 220s in a fight thanks to clip size.

    Not that anyone is going to fit 425s anyway.

    Anyway, once SISI is actually remotely stable I'm sure with enough prodding tux can be convinced to let us try the Harbi with the proper 8 turrets & the fittings for it.

    Zhull
    Republic Military School
    Posted - 2006.10.30 21:51:00 - [428]
     

    Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34
    Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45
    I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work.

    With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. Question

    You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II
    3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers
    A repairer
    and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD)

    It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. Mad

    We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots.

    Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints.

    Zhull
    Republic Military School
    Posted - 2006.10.30 21:59:00 - [429]
     

    Originally by: Zhull
    Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:52:34
    Edited by: Zhull on 30/10/2006 21:51:45
    I think that the Myrmidon still needs a lot of work.

    With 8 Highs, 5 turrets and no hybrid bonus it is designed to be used with LASERS. Question

    You can fit 5 Focused Medium Pulse laser II
    3 NOS to offset the extra cap required by the lasers
    A repairer
    and an Afterburner (not enough grid for MWD)

    It is a bigger arbitrator, not a smaller dominix. Mad

    We need a tier 2 battlecruiser that can be used by gallente pilots.

    Please, at least change the turret hardpoints to missile hardpoints.


    Oh, by the way, and it can have a mean shield tank Shocked

    Goumindong
    SniggWaffe
    Posted - 2006.10.30 22:06:00 - [430]
     

    Originally by: keepiru
    Edited by: keepiru on 30/10/2006 20:58:26
    Well, "DPS Multiplier" as a comparison tool is kinda useless until.

  • EMP M does less damage than AM M and MF M

  • You don't calculate damage@range and tracking - need NB's spreadsheet for this

  • You don't factor in reload time over your average fight time - again need NB's spreadsheet for this


  • Not that I've been able to find a setup that can fit MWD + Injector + DUal rep or Rep + 1600 on the Hurricane with 425s and a nos or heavy assault, I have to use 220s.

    Regardless, looks to me they should give it back its 8th turret.


    Titainium Sabot M and EMP M both do 22 damage. MF M does 24. If you want, you can give the FMP a 9% boost in damage[equal to BC 1 now], for that.

    It isnt going to help much.

    Now if you start looking at its based armor damage instead of the base damage differences, you will start seeing that go the other way. Not sure what happens when you average between the two based on the number of shield/armor tankers, but i doubt it will be favorable to the lasers.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.10.30 22:17:00 - [431]
     

    here the graph...

    hur vs har

    doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2...

    i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones.

    also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite...

    i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk...

    you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot.

    and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers


    Zarch AlDain
    GK inc.
    Posted - 2006.10.30 23:01:00 - [432]
     

    I finally got a chance to fly the drake this afternoon and it seems pretty good. It's a very tight fit to get tech 2 launchers on it though, even with AWU.

    James Draekn
    X.E.N.O.
    OWN Alliance
    Posted - 2006.10.30 23:08:00 - [433]
     

    Edited by: James Draekn on 30/10/2006 23:28:40
    Just ran the math on Ogre 2's, if the Myrmidons slots layout/bonuses were changed to the following:

    4 highs(no turrets)
    5 mids
    7 lows
    500m3 drone bay

    +1 drone controlled per level
    +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level


    Ogre 2's stats
    Damage mod of 1.92
    Damage or 24
    ROF 2

    So we take the numbers and go......

    1.92* (2 [drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill] ) = 5.472 damage mod

    damage doesn't change = 24

    rof doesnt change = rof 2

    So we get = 5.472*24/2= 65.664 PER DRONE for DPS.

    Times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.

    The drones have to be within 5km of their target and they have no drone damage mods, no rof mods. This would be a true drone boat.

    After running those numbers I seriously was thinking that this ship could have those bonuses and that size drone bay and still need turrets to compete with the other races tier 2 BC. Not to mention the fact that enemies can target drones and kill them.

    So for all the people saying that heavy drones would make this ship overpowered, here's the proof that it won't. Most of the other races BC with max skills and the largest guns fit to gank will outdamage this thing easily. And the large drone bay is there do to the fact that this ship has no guns, so it needs to be able to reload just like turret and launchers.

    Bradstone
    BradNett Reloaded
    Posted - 2006.10.30 23:14:00 - [434]
     

    Edited by: Bradstone on 30/10/2006 23:14:29
    Even i haven't read all the posts here, I must agree that the nighthawk have a 7th launcher slot to. I use a nighthawk for pretty much everything, and to think that all that skill training time for a nighthawk and all that isk "could" be all out damaged by a nOOb in a T1 BC... it would be devastating.

    Hllaxiu
    Shiva
    Morsus Mihi
    Posted - 2006.10.31 00:22:00 - [435]
     

    Originally by: James Draekn
    [b]4 highs(no turrets)
    5 mids
    7 lows
    500m3 drone bay


    A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos....

    Goumindong
    SniggWaffe
    Posted - 2006.10.31 00:29:00 - [436]
     

    Originally by: Ath Amon
    here the graph...

    hur vs har

    doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2...

    i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones.

    also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite...

    i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk...

    you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot.

    and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers




    The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading?

    James Draekn
    X.E.N.O.
    OWN Alliance
    Posted - 2006.10.31 00:44:00 - [437]
     

    Originally by: Hllaxiu
    Originally by: James Draekn
    [b]4 highs(no turrets)
    5 mids
    7 lows
    500m3 drone bay


    A drone battlecruiser should not have more low slots than the Brutix, Astarte and Deimos....


    Ok how about....

    4 highs (no turrets)
    6 mids
    6 lows

    With the Myrmidon's powergrid you can't stack to much in the lows.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.10.31 00:45:00 - [438]
     

    Originally by: Goumindong
    Originally by: Ath Amon
    here the graph...

    hur vs har

    doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2...

    i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones.

    also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite...

    i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk...

    you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot.

    and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers




    The 425 II spends a full 1/3 of the time reloading?


    amarr ships have cap, but minnies have reloading Rolling EyesRazz

    the graph is made with NB's spreadsheet that is considered very accurate (more than quickfit that have some bugs)...

    i can have messed it up but a bit playing with it but don't think so... anyway if someone want to try to reproduce it and post here...

    Valtirix
    Gallente
    The Scope
    Posted - 2006.10.31 01:35:00 - [439]
     

    Originally by: Ath Amon
    here the graph...

    hur vs har

    doesn't seem that the har is that crap... just a consideration or 2...

    i used "old" t2 ammos value and also i'm using vespas that are not the highest dps drones.

    also i disagree that long range is useless if you can't dictate range... actually is quite the opposite...

    i short range ship that can't dictate range risk to get "easilly" outranged, for ship with longer range there is not this risk...

    you risk a bit for tracking but then webber can help a lot.

    and the harb also should be able to dictate range against all BCs except the 2 minnies, while all BCs should be not be able to dictate range against most cruisers




    See, i think the Hurricane is fine! Besides, some people are complaining it's dps is too high compared with its tankability?

    1: Have you not seen the hail nerfs for Kali? I'll be damned if anybody uses hail Shocked

    2:Also, it doesn't get a tanking bonus, like the other bc's do. THe Myrmidon's rep bonus, and the drake's resistance bonus make up for it. And, it sort of made me think of a brutix when i thought of a dual MAR tank on a hurricane, but again, it doesn't get the rep bonus of a brutix....

    Kai Lae
    Gallente
    Shiva
    Morsus Mihi
    Posted - 2006.10.31 02:41:00 - [440]
     

    Edited by: Kai Lae on 31/10/2006 02:42:27
    Originally by: James Draekn


    1.92* (2 [drone interfacing 5, 100% increase in drone damage] + .25 [heavy drone operation] + .1 [adv gal drone skill] + .5 [bc skill] ) = 5.472 damage mod

    damage doesn't change = 24

    rof doesnt change = rof 2

    So we get = 5.472*24/2= 65.664 PER DRONE for DPS.

    Times that by 10= 656.64 MAX DPS with full skills on 10 ogre 2's in space.




    Your numbers are incorrect. Taken in order:

    Ogre II Damagemod: 1.96
    1.96 x drone interfacing 5: 4.8
    4.8 x gallente drone spec 5: 5.28
    5.28 x gallente BC 5: 7.92

    7.92 x 24: 190.08
    190.08/2: 95.04
    95.04 x 5: 475.2 DPS

    475.2 DPS is the max amount of drone damage you can do with any drone ship in the game except the moros. With a moros, it is 1108.8 DPS.

    Kalhystia
    Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [441]
     

    Edited by: Kalhystia on 31/10/2006 02:46:35
    Hey peeps.

    I would first like to say that I am going to buy and use a myrmidon a Kali: I just love this ship. I use gallente vessels quite often and even if I am not an expert at it I do pvp sometimes. However I donīt claim to be a ship specialist, able to spam uber numbers and formulas with alien signs everywhere, I just want to bring my 2 cents. on the current issue with this nice battlecruiser YARRRR!!.

    Myrmidon battlecruiser role:

    Well after reading this thread, I saw quite a lot of people wanting to boost this baby to bring it along with the other tier 2 bc DPS; if, that is a good idea in theory, I would like to point out that Gallente already have a damage boat, the Brutix. Giving the Myrmidon a medium hybrid bonus would just make it subpar to the Brutix as such a bonus wouldnīt be that useful, as the Myrmidon only has 5 turret slots and little powergrid to fit them. Brutix is supposed to be the gank baby of our arsenal, not Myrmidon Idea.

    Even if you can fit it like a blasterboat, I believe it is better at range, acting like a support ship: fit dampeners/tracking disruptors, some NOS and small sized guns and you get a very valuable ship in fleets, able to mount a gang warfare module, while being able to get rid of pesty frigates and interceptors. Of course, it has a moderate DPS, but as said before, the point of this ship is NOT pure DPS for gankage.

    Personally, I find that the Myrmidon repair bonus is fine; with a plate, this ship can reach 13k armor hitpoints with a good tank, turning it into a nice, maybe too nice tanking platform. Even without a plate, the ship isnīt that fast or agile, and trying to add a microwarp drive will just give you poor results, as your base signature radius stays almost as big as a BS to start with.

    Of course, it is a droneboat, so the damage bonus to drone is greatly welcomed, even if it could be modified a little. (see below). Arrow

    Kalhystia
    Posted - 2006.10.31 02:44:00 - [442]
     

    Edited by: Kalhystia on 31/10/2006 02:48:09
    Slots layout:

    Still, I have nothing wrong to say here. 8/5/5 stays a versatile but solid layout, as you have as much low than medium slots. For graphical logic I would say that a 6th turret slot could be added, but Myrmidon just donīt have enough powergrid for it anyway. Changing the layout to 7/5/6 would put that ship on the same low slot level than the Harbinger, and I donīt like it as Amarr are supposed to stay kings of lows; it could be done if Harbinger layout was changed to 7/4/7 (seems very wise to me; wonīt discuss why here, other already told it, and I avoid to talk of ships I know nothing Embarassed).

    Stripping all turret slots from this ship to give him weird output like 4/x/y but with huge dronebay isnīt very balanced to me and would gimp the ship versatility. I still want to be able to add turrets, no to restrict its use to only one role: cap sucker. It is not supposed to be a Curse (even if most common droneship setups included NOS I admit).

    Drone bay and drone damage:

    Big issue here. BCs are supposed to be the middle-children of cruisers and BS. But, this ship only has a 100m3 wide dronebay, which it rather limited for a droneship. While I can see that it was put this way to prevent it to reach the same DPS than the Dominix by using 5 heavy drones with a drone bonus, it just completely defeats its role as the ship canīt replace lost drones properly in battles. With Kali (read: Revelations) and the HP boost coming, pilots will have more time to shoot drones, and a droneship without drones is just like a woman without breast if I may say so ugh.

    As people before me brightly pointed it out, I think that giving this ship a drone damage bonus only applied to light and medium drones is the good way to go: it allows an increase in dronebay, while preventing it to reach the feared dominix DPS (which isnīt that great without large guns to start with, but letīs not get into this).

    Raw damage of hammerhead I: 12HP.
    Raw damage of ogre I: 24HP.

    Rof are the same for each of the two.

    Giving a 10% bonus to medium and light drones damage per level increases it to 18HP for hammerhead.
    Giving a 15% bonus to medium and light drones damage per level increases it to 21HP for hammerhead.
    Giving a 20% bonus to medium and light drones damage per level increases it to 24HP for hammerhead.


    Giving a 20% bonus to medium and light drones damage per level is too much: it allows light drones to pop light ships too fast while giving medium drones the same raw DPS than heavy ones, but with better speed and tracking.

    15% damage to medium and light per level seems the way to go: it is a good balance between raw DPS and tracking. But even keeping 10% damage is enough for me, as long as we get a bigger dronebay.

    (Of course, letīs keep the +10% to drone HP per level).

    This way we can increase the Myrmidon dronebay. But by how much? Vexor dronebay is 75m3; Dominix dronebay is 375m3. *Raises an eyebrow, Spock-style* Logic says this ship should have (375-75)/2 = 150m3 dronebay. That allows 3 waves of medium drones, or some nice mixing of light-medium-heavies without creating any imbalances.

    Kalhystia
    Posted - 2006.10.31 02:45:00 - [443]
     

    Edited by: Kalhystia on 31/10/2006 02:49:21
    Powergrid and Cpu:

    Just let it this way. Setups are tight to fit, but that is supposed to be that way as Myrmidon is a droneship: adding more PWG/CPU would just overpower it, and we are looking for balance, not a big red I-WIN button.

    Last words.

    I would just like to point out that, with the ECM nerf coming in Kali, drone ships wonīt be uber anymore, so I donīt really see the point to summon Tuxfordīs bat to overnerf it, or drones in general. There is a currently (or was not so long ago) a ferocious battle on the EVE Online “ships and modules” forum about Dominix bonus, for people interested into it (forgot the link Crying or Very sad).

    Thatīs it, I just brought my little opinion about this ship; I am not perfect, I am not a good PvPer but I still have tested the ship, so I still have little knowledge of what I am talking about. I stay open-minded enough to know that my post isnīt flawless, and I welcome people to correct me, as long as it stays flame-proof. Thanks for the few chosen ones who were able to reach the end of that post without falling asleep Rolling Eyes.

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 03:32:00 - [444]
     

    No. Medium Drones are lame, 5 Heavies w. Damage bonus is needed to bring it inline with other BCs.

    Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.

    Ath Amon
    Posted - 2006.10.31 05:05:00 - [445]
     

    Edited by: Ath Amon on 31/10/2006 05:10:43
    Originally by: Kalhystia
    Last words.
    Thatīs it, I just brought my little opinion about this ship; I am not perfect, I am not a good PvPer but I still have tested the ship, so I still have little knowledge of what I am talking about. I stay open-minded enough to know that my post isnīt flawless, and I welcome people to correct me, as long as it stays flame-proof. Thanks for the few chosen ones who were able to reach the end of that post without falling asleep Rolling Eyes.


    liked your analysis, and mostly agree for the ship role and dps...

    i also looked a bit at its damage graph and seem a bit low even to me...

    but also i myst say that i will not like that much the idea to boost drone dmg to 15% (even if only on medium and light)

    what "scares" me of this ship is its decent tank, number of midslots and decent dps for its nosage power.

    (i didn't tried fittings so i don't know eventual pg/cpu problems)

    but with these stats i fear that, using damps, it will force most opponents to fight in its nos range and this can make it an extremely powerfull ship even in its actual condition...

    so, for my taste the only way i will improve its dps for now it will be maybe with 6 turrets instead of 5... a bit more balance but more important the additional dps comes at cost of nosage power.

    i'm not saying that the ship is overpowered or is fine as is it, just that in my opinion with its "peculiar" design probably it will need a bit of time before people will get used to it and "learn" to put the best out of it... and a fast boost can risk to overpower it.


    adding:
    instead for me it will be fine to restrict the drone bonus to mid and light drones and to improve the drone bay...

    10% to mid and light drones only and 150m3 (if not 200) drone bay seem ok to me

    MECTO
    Caldari
    Caldari Provisions
    Posted - 2006.10.31 06:55:00 - [446]
     

    Originally by: keepiru

    Just give it 250m3 and get it over with.

    yeah and problem solved. Smile

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 07:30:00 - [447]
     

    Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 07:31:25
    Allright, I got bored of looking @ other people's graphs, so I made my own - btw, NaughtyBoy and Chribba are made of pure 24-karat win.

    Anyway, I wanted to look at DPS @ Range and Cumulative Damage/Time @ fixed range - both with the ships as they are right now, and with the only realistically possible boosts for the 2 ships that are perceived as "weak", which is to say: 8th turret for Harbinger and 250m3 drone bay for Myrmidon.

    Before we start, a few notes about the highslot/drone setups of the ships here:

  • The Hurricane uses a T2 Heavy Assault in the 8th high. This is actually very unlikely to happen, as even with the dps of HAML IIs most people will probably fit a nos, purely because the ammo draw of 7 ACs creates noticeable logistical problems already, without the silly m3/minute ammo chew rate of HAML IIs - however, its technically possible... easyer than fitting a nos in fact. On the other hand, drone damage is not modelled 100% accurately as its using 5 lights instead of 4 lights and 1 med.

  • The Drake doesn't have any weapon in its 8th high as its not, as far as I know, realistically possible to fit anything in there along with 7 HAML IIs and the mods needed to get into HAM range and stay there. Not if you want to fit 2 BCU IIs anyway. If this is wrong, and you find a gun that's worth the bother of the ammo you have to take with you, please let me know. Razz


  • Now, on with the graphs!

    Current Situation:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^

    Gorion Wassenar
    Caldari
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    Posted - 2006.10.31 08:25:00 - [448]
     

    Here's a crazy idea. If the issue is the Mrym loosing drones then just give the supposed king of BC droneage the ability to just have so many drones that the pilot won't know what to do with them. But here's the trick so that its only Med drones that get this ability and not let it have heavies.

    "10% bonus hitpoints and damage to med drones per level."
    and
    "1 m3 less volume of Med drones per level."

    At level five you can hold the same number of light drones as Med drones (50!) but still falls under the "5 out at one time rule" to prevent it getting ridiculous. If they want to carry 50 t2 med drones they're welcome to carry them but even with the 5 out there if they can't kill it before it dies then it'll loose too much to ever be justified. I think this would aptly throw in enough risk/reward to carrying a full 50 t2 drones if they did.

    And let it have the same number of high slots but one less turret.

    Tiuwaz
    Minmatar
    No Paradise
    Posted - 2006.10.31 09:11:00 - [449]
     

    Originally by: keepiru

    Realistic Boosts:
    Damage @ Range
    Cumulative Damage @ 2500m
    Cumulative Damage @ 5000m

    I think they speak for themselves tbh ^_^


    your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns

    myrmidon would only do a little less dps at a small spot around the 5km mark, everwhere else it would do equal/superior damage while having a much better tank

    your first graph with the current stats looks a lot more balanced to me

    keepiru
    Omega Fleet Enterprises
    Executive Outcomes
    Posted - 2006.10.31 09:12:00 - [450]
     

    Edited by: keepiru on 31/10/2006 09:28:26
    That solves nothing.

    With 5 heavy drones the Myrmidon is only just level with the other tier-2 BCs as far as damage goes.

    With mediums? Its a waste of database entries, they might as well not put it live on TQ. It would be the Ares of Battlecruisers Laughing

    Originally by: Tiuwaz
    your proposed realistic boost would give harbinger better dps at any! range over hurricane even with harb using 2nd tier guns while hurr uses 1st tier guns


    You're damned right it would, the Harbinger:

  • has a MUCH harder time fitting guns

  • is slower

  • has a larger signature radius

  • has about 60% of the tracking

  • has no choice in damage type

  • has a 14cap/sec draw with HP II (cannot be fit with MWD Injector and Rep) or 11cap/sec with focused pulse - this is in theory counterbalanced by a whole 0.694* better cap recharge Laughing - on top of the repper and mwd


  • Just for comparison, a T2 Med Rep draws 17.7 cap/sec. Rolling Eyes

    Yes, I think its perfectly balanced, and just for the record, I intend to fly the Hurricane regardless of whether the Harbi goes through with 8 guns or 7.

    As for the Myrmidon, drones die, remember? Let alone the fact that the real max range of heavies is under 20km thanks to speed.


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