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Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.10.29 14:21:00 - [391]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
The myr should get 200-225 m dronebay, but no (read: zero) turretslots. Those won't be of much use anyway and will shut up people who whine about it's dps with 5 neutron blasters (nvmd it won't be able to fit them with a good tank, let alone get into range well with it's huge mass) and 5 ogre 2.

225m drone bay, 2 less highs, 2 more low and no weaponports.


that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile...

Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.29 14:34:00 - [392]
 

No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it.

NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore.

Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.10.29 14:37:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: keepiru
No, it wont be a mean NOSPwnMobile because its powergrid sucks far too hard for any decent amount of nossage with a tank under it.

NOS + Drones is only that good when you have ECM in the mix as well, and that wont be happening anymore.


then it will be a mild nos-decentmobile. I still think the answer is to not give it a drone damage bonus.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.29 15:10:00 - [394]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:10:39
Originally by: Dixon
that would be one mean nos-pwnmobile...

Why not give it a large dronebay (200-250m3) but no drone bonus and a hybrid bonus instead. Then they can have their heavys and some backups but they don't to BBQ damage.


Well, it wouldn't be one any more than an Ishtar. All t2 cruisers seem to me somewhat stronger than their racial HACs on the cost of speed, agility & range.

Note that the tier2 BCs are rather heavy and are not very fast even with MWDs, so for a Myr getting into med nos range isn't something it can do easily. It's only 12 km, not 25 km like with the domi.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.29 15:38:00 - [395]
 

Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:39:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives?


well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks.

Temo Jick
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:43:00 - [397]
 

I havnt boverd to check so if you would like to look it up you can probably prove me wrong. But i thought that between the bonuses of T2 launchers/turrets and the T2 Amunition for them they were improved by more then the drones were hence ballenced. Now if this was the case then with the T2 ammo nerf it may not be any more.

Maybe some one should check. Im too lazy ^.^

Caewack
Posted - 2006.10.30 00:02:00 - [398]
 

Edited by: Caewack on 30/10/2006 00:04:58
Originally by: Black Scorpio

Quote: "When another BC can take away 80% of your damage before your drones even get to it something is wrong..."

Answer: Pot in very high quantities is bad for you! Stop while you have something left in your head that you can use, or is it too late!


Don't blame pot, pot is good. One might think your head took a beating when you say something as dumb as above.


oh, and btw. Make 4 stickies for each battlecruiser.. There is no system in the threads and the replys are all mixed up. Makes it close to impossible to discuss anything in here.

Jaxtet
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.30 01:12:00 - [399]
 

As far as drawbacks of T2 drones vs. T2 turrets, etc - T2 turrets can't be targeted explicitly and destroyed or disabled.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 01:36:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Nebuli
Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives?


well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks.


No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks.

Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.30 02:28:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Nebuli
Cant believe I read someone say why dont tech 2 drones have stacking negatives like tech 2 ammo, all I can say is... LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Counter with, why dont your tech 2 turrets and launchers have stacking negatives?


well, T2 weapons ARE harder to fit, while T2 drones only have skill and price as drawbacks.


No, they have low dps, delayed damage and the fact they can be shot down as drawbacks.

Also the ships that have drone bonus's also have lower fittings and less slots than those that dont.


Only if you dont consider the drone bay a usefull attribute to be balanced with fitting and slots.

Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 - [402]
 

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

Just up the Myrm drone space to 200 or so and give the drones a 7.5% bonus instead of a 10%. Simple.

Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.30 04:02:00 - [403]
 

Edited by: Packtu''sa on 30/10/2006 04:02:12
Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me.

Drake (Caldari) - It's good that the new battlecruiser for Caldari will be a missile boat. Though many seem to be saying that the new battlecruisers should be all-gank and no-tank, I think that this only holds true for the Harbinger and Hurricane--the Drake and Myrmidon should have strong tanks. The seven launcher slots will give it a nice damage output, though if people try to fit all Heavy Missile Launchers in those slots, they will find an appalling lack of CPU and powergrid remaining--which is good, it forces people to think more about how they fit it. The Rate of Fire bonus is fine; if you replace this with a Kinetic damage bonus, Caldari will be even more restricted in their damage type than Amarr or Gallente.

Myrmidon (Gallente) - Come on people, read the description. It's a ship designed to withstand damage and last on a battlefield, not one that will dish out loads of damage, which is, by the way, not the only factor one should consider on a ship. I think that the Myrmidon should be given a 125 m3 drone bay, but have the drone damage bonus removed and the drone hitpoints bonus increased to 20%. This will go hand-in-hand with its overall resiliance, and still maintain some of its previous damage potential. Keep the armor bonus, and give it a sixth turret slot.

Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup.


I hope to be producing all four of these when the patch is released, so I look forward to all of them.

Mak'shar Karrde
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.10.30 06:32:00 - [404]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Hurricane (Minmatar) - A few things could be done with the Hurricane. It seems like its a nice damage boat like the Harbinger, and has enough capacitor/slots to tank a bit of damage. I like that it can't fit artillery without compromising the rest of its setup. Since it will be using autocannons, though, let's give it a bit of speed; increase its max velocity to 175 m/s, or alternatively, replace its Rate of Fire bonus with a 5% Max Velocity bonus. This would make it a bit less of gank and more of manuevering, so I personally would prefer the base max velocity increase, as long as its CPU and powergrid are not enough to fit a strong artillery setup.
The Hurricane is fine as is. There are very few complaints leveled at it, I imagine there would be outrage if it were changed now. It's everything we ever dreamed of, the Rupture's bigger brother.

And I definetly plan to use artillery with it. It would mean no tank but that is something I can live with.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.30 06:58:00 - [405]
 

about the hurricane...

i had not much time to try it out well, it seem a nice boat but is also extremely slow... my phoon probably is a bit faster and more maneuverable Rolling Eyes

considering its stats and the lack of tanking bonus i wish it could get some more speed 175-180...

had no chance to try/see other BCs in action, on paper the drake seem an awesome ship... probably a bit too awesome Razz

Chronojam
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.10.30 08:41:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Chronojam on 30/10/2006 08:56:36
Originally by: Nebuli
Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous.

Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target.

"I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!"

As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship.


The more I read and look at the math, the more I agree with you. I'd gladly gladly gladly trade in my high slots down to two (remote rep and range boost, gotta give the little guys SOME loving) for maybe another low slot, some more drone space, and perhaps an extra live drone or two. Maybe do a thing like, "+1 drones for every two levels past 1" so that at level 3 BC you get +1 drone, level 5 you get +2.

But holy ****, as it stands right now, I might as well go back to my Vexor. I'd much rather go 600m/s with rails and have a pack of rabid HH2 cycling in and out, than this slow rock with naught but a quad of Ogres waiting to be ****d by anything that's not a tier 1 BC with poor tracking.

(also I'm curious if anybody knows where to buy HH2 for less than 1.5-2 million ISK apiece)

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:15:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
Harbinger (Amarr) - It looks like a nice ganking boat. No bonuses to tanking, but the capacitor need reduction and damage bonus looks simple and solid. Its four midslots to six lowslots go along with its nature as a pure-damage boat, rather than a ship that tanks damage. Seems fine to me.


Problem is that vs the hurricane it is worse in every aspect but drone bay. It is slower, it's tank is worse, it does less dps and has less fitting space avaiable after shortrange weapons fitted.

Tintifish
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:04:00 - [408]
 

Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time.

All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness.

This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ.

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.30 14:59:00 - [409]
 

Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 30/10/2006 15:48:57
Originally by: Tintifish
Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm


This.

In case someone doesn't want to bother with that:

Hurricane with 425mm IIs, med nos, usual mids, 2 dam mods and an ok tank (T2 med repper, 2*EANM2, DCU) has a DoT of 812 with drones.

Myrmidon with five Ogre IIs, 5 electron IIs, 3 med nosf, usual mids + one ECM mod, 2 dam mods, RCU 2, suicidal tank (T2 repper, EANM) has a DoT of 814.

You can kill 111 points of Hurricane's DoT separately (leaves 711). You can kill 475 points of Myrmidon's DoT separately (leaves 339).

In addition, Myrmidon is slower, heavier and has worse effective range with its guns.

These ships are nowhere near equal. With the current max of four heavy drones...

Tintifish
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.30 15:54:00 - [410]
 

Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far?

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:00:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Tintifish
Im not sure what people are complaining about with the Myrm, i've only just managed to get on the test server, but once i got in a fight (with a drake) i killed it when i was still on half armor. We started nearly 50km away from each other, and my drones even decided to wander off halfway through. The character was over a year older than me, and he didn't target my drones (who knows what would have happened if he had). My tank appeared to be able to sustain itself for a little while(with 3 nos) and my dps with 3 ions could have been enough to finish him off in time.

All im saying is that the Myrm has excellent damage (i was using 3 ogres and 2 hammerhead IIs), so maybe it should have some weakness, sure up its bay to 125m3 but at 200+ i think it will be far overpowered, with no weakness.

This is coming from someone who intends to buy a Myrm as their main ship on TQ.


He used the wrong tactics basically, if he had then you would be dead.

Either he has has no PvP experience or he doesn't know the Myrm's stats so assumed you had replacement drones.

Chronojam
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:07:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Tintifish
Just managed to log back in (for about 3 minutes)and noticed the Myrm now has only 2 turrets. Im pretty sure this wasn't like this before, seeing i have 3 fitted. I think only have 2 turrets and a 100m3 drone bay is a bit too far?


Oh please oh please tell me my dream came true and we've ditched the crappy turrets in favor of the real dogged persistance and tankability the description promises us, along with a +# drone control bonus (Hell! I have a better idea than before. Tie bonus drone count into advanced drone interfacing, a skill that noncarriers otherwise have put to waste! +1 per level of that) and bay increase.

Oh please oh please. What's my one account in the face of thousands but I pledge six months purchased upon patch release if we get this kind of deal.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:10:00 - [413]
 

No, 3 fitted + 2 hardpoints on fitting screen = 5.

If you fit 5, it'll say the ship has 0 hardpoints, because it shows the amount of turret/missiles hardpoints still free.

Tintifish
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.30 16:26:00 - [414]
 

Ah lol, explains it, i checked ship description as well, but must have checked my ship's becuase the market was broke by this point. Nevermind...we can but hope :)

Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2006.10.30 17:26:00 - [415]
 

The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS?

If the Harbinger does less damage than the Hurricane, I propose that a lowslot be taken from the Hurricane so that one less damage/tracking mod can be used. They should be fairly close in damage-per-second, but remember that the Hurricane can change damage types, and it will be faster and smaller.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:26:00 - [416]
 

mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane

harbringer with focused medium pulse is not that wors than 425mm, a bit less damage at closer range but better range... if you factor in the bigger dronebay then the dps is almost identical (with better range for the harb)

focused medium pulse is also easier to fit, so the harb should have better tank than the hurricane (easier fitting and 15-20% more base armor hps)

the hurrican can mount an additional missile launcher to improve its dps, while the harbringer is stuck with the nos (still quite benefical), so i don't see the reason of all this whinage

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 18:54:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
mah i had not looked much at the harbringer but i don't see all this difference between harbringer and hurricane
...
so i don't see the reason of all this whinage



that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups.

the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.



Kruel
Beyond Divinity Inc
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:06:00 - [418]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship.


All the more reason it needs a larger drone bay. If it's built to tank, then that means it needs to LAST on the battlefield. Without spare drones all it can do is tank until it dies.

Basically if your in a Myrm and you lose your drones, just hit the self-destruct button and be done with it.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:17:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 30/10/2006 19:18:00
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne

that they are almost identical is exactly what causes the dissatisfaction with the harbinger. they can deal almost identical raw-dps with very similar setups.

the problem being that the hurricane uses 0 cap in order to do that and deals its damage in form of more desireable damagetypes. the cap advantage alone should give the hurricane the better tank here.



yes i see the cap problem, but harbs have also more range and base tankage so i don't see a huge umbalance

harb vs hurr, both with 1 nos, i will prefer to stay in the hurr, but mostly due to 70% base ew res.

still harb is better suited for longer range as noses are less a problem... against a brutix for example probably i will prefer the harb

so in the end i consider them quite balanced, maybe hurr a bit better but is also quite situational

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.30 19:26:00 - [420]
 

Originally by: Packtu'sa
The Myrmidon is not a ganking ship; it's a tanking ship. Its ability to dish out damage is superceded by its ability to withstand it, so personally, I would be asking for cap/lowslot/cpu/powergrid changes rather than this futility of wanting to match the Hurricane's DPS. A Hurricane will not be able to tank nearly as well as a Myrmidon will, so why should the Myrmidon be matching its DPS?



... Why can't a Hurricane tank almost as well? It has one more low slot for an additional rep, it has oodles of grid available and ACs need no cap and are easy to fit.


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