Posted - 2006.10.27 20:39:00 - [302]

 

Edited by: Aramendel on 27/10/2006 20:41:25

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward?

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Because the other races t2 heavy damage ammo has no penalities.. oh wait. On a sidenote, when did I ever "push the penality" forward?

Oh well, I guess I have to talk with the members in my noob starter corp a bit more.

Originally by: Nyxus

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Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog

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According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.

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This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

Nyxus

PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else.

Nyxus

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Agreed.

Posted - 2006.10.27 20:41:00 - [304]

 

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Centurin

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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You people starting to like me yet?

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When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.

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My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours.

YAYYY

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I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames.

Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop.

As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship.

Posted - 2006.10.27 20:44:00 - [306]

 

Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:42:51

Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Nyxus

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Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog

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According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.

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This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

Nyxus

PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else.

Nyxus

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YES PLEASE

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It could use about 100 more CPU to be equivelent as well[90 or so at max skills], not to mention the capacitor with 7 guns firing 25% faster even at a 50% discount...

Then again, ill take what I can get at 7/4/7 with 2100 PG.

The problem of course, is then balancing the thing with beam lasers and smaller laser weaponry[which saves more PG per gun than AC's/Artillerys do]. If you decided to fit focused instead of heavies you could fit two 1600 MM plates at 2100 PG. And a similar situation involving the difference between focused medium beams and heavy beams.[DPS difference on both is roughly 30%]

Fixing laser PG/CPU use would be a better solution, but 100 CPU/600 PG and 7/4/7 is a good stopgap.

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imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid.

Posted - 2006.10.27 20:48:00 - [308]

 

Edited by: Goumindong on 27/10/2006 20:49:34

Originally by: Grimpak

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imho, the limiting factor when fitting amarrian ships should always be CPU and not grid.

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I wont challenge that, i was just trying to show what makes the ships about as comparable in fitting for the largest short range weapons as they are currently running the same slots with about the same damage.

The differences with the CPU/PG are that the Hurricane doesnt use cap and uses ammo instead and the Harbinger is slower, and larger

Posted - 2006.10.27 20:59:00 - [310]

 

Originally by: Dwight Hammerhead

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Lol I have a vulture for when i have to fit gang modules, thank you. A tier 2 t1 BC having the same dmg as command ship? I dont see this happening to the other races

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Sorry wasn’t trying to make an argument against you, caldari ships aren’t my area of experience. Was just volunteering a reason that sprang to mind.

Posted - 2006.10.27 21:21:00 - [312]

 

11 pages of argument and no developer input, just lots of rabbling and argument about the myrmidon's drone bay, the raw destructive power of the drake, bonuses, the Hurricane's speed, and the seeming lack of the need for a ship like the Harbinger as it stands... anything that ive missed?

What I would love to see at this point is the opinions of the developers on the subject matter - and with that input a rule of no flaming; reasonable (if passionate) debate over whether or not you agree. Honestly player bickering gets old after awhile...

If you could spare some time to talk to us about this Tuxford, TomB, and everyone else involved, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the player input

Posted - 2006.10.27 21:25:00 - [314]

 

Originally by: Butter Dog

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Centurin

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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You people starting to like me yet?

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When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.

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My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours.

YAYYY

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I know I'm just feeding the troll here, but seriously, you need to grow up. Reading your posts makes me cringe. You have contributed nothing to this thread but ignorance and flames.

Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop.

As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship.

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Go feed your dog some butter btw!

Keep flaming gayente fanboy, you are getting nothing more on this ship!!!! You'll have to stick to buttering doggies. muhahahhaha

Posted - 2006.10.27 21:32:00 - [316]

 

Originally by: Butter Dog

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Anyway, on topic: The Myrm clearly does need a larger drone bay, or SOME kind of change so that it isnt useless when the drones pop.

As it stands, there is absolutely no reason to use a Myrm rather than a Brutix. Way lower DPS and an extra mid just doesnt cut it. I'm not even thinking about the drones because any competent pilot will instapop them knowing full well they are the only real DPS on the ship.

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I'm in total agreement here.

Brutix does more damage and has a repper bonus too. Only a Brutix needs a MWD and booster charges to do that, both of which don't work for missions.

Vexors are too fragile to run level 3 missions, and Dominix are too expensive on level 2 income.

So thats really what the Myr is. A level 3 mission boat.

Only having 100m3 of drone space on a mission boat isn't a factor because you just don't lose drones to NPCs.

Giving a mission drone boat a 125m3 bay would also mean 'dominix damage' on missions since you don't fit a lot of guns or fire them much.


So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge.

Posted - 2006.10.27 21:45:00 - [318]

 

Originally by: Illuminaty

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So basically, the Myr is nothing more than a dressed up mining barge.

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Brutix out mines it.

Posted - 2006.10.27 22:16:00 - [320]

 

Edited by: Derran on 27/10/2006 22:29:00

Originally by: Alex Harumichi

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How about you use yours and tell me how 5 heavy + 5 med hybrids with no damage bonus equals the DPS of 5 heavy drone + 6 large hybrid with +5% per level damage bonus, eh?

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I pretty much fly only Gallente now. Can you give me a setup of a Dominix that actually works with large hybrids AND a tank that shows the point you are trying to make? I hope you don't mean heavy electron IIs either. Bleach.

Myrmidon setup I am considering is T2 ACs with some NOS since it doesn't have a hybrid damage bonus anyway. Should save cap and grid and leave plenty of CPU and Grid for a heavy tank.

Posted - 2006.10.27 23:25:00 - [322]

 

Originally by: Hllaxiu

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Brutix out mines it.

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Yep, done it myself a few times when about the only useful fitting you could get on a brutix was 7x miner II's. However, addressing the topic at hand, the myrmidon. I think many are seeing 8x medium nos II on this thing and that's what's driving them insane, because so far I've not seen really a good reason for it to not have a larger drone bay than it currently has. Since it has no gun bonus, this means by design nearly all of it's firepower comes from drones. I'll state some numbers for those who don't know; maximum drone damage (5x ogre II, BC 5, drone interfacing 5, heavy drones 5, gallente drone specalization 5) is 475.2 DPS. You can ofc add guns on it to get more DPS, but the lack of a ship bonus means that you won't be getting a huge return out of this. The damage output of this ship is and will be driven by it's drones.

This is the issue that it has currently is that with a 100m3 drone bay, same skills as above, using medium drones that DPS is 237.6. It's just not comparable. Now, you can use 4x Ogre II and get 380.16, which isn't that bad, but you will have no reloads and no backup. This is a key because with combat becoming longer and longer it makes more and more sense to shoot the drones. If you're going to be fighting a ship which uses a weapon system that is able to be targetable and destroyable, it's really foolish not to do so if you can as killing the drones negates most of the offensive firepower. After the drones are done the myrmidon is also done, for the most part. So the situation currently is that with the ship as currently designed you have two options; you can either have low DPS and have a reserve or other drone options, or have average-low DPS compared to other BC and have no reserve and no options leaving you open to being negated by a smart opponent.

When you run the numbers in comparison the 475 DPS from drones if it were to be able to use 5 Ogre II is not excessive. It should be noted, again, this is with max drone skills, and most players won't be able to do this in reality. In addition, due to tactical realities, Ogre II's aren't always the smart weapon of choice, and therefore the theoritical max damage DPS will frequently be lower. It therefore can be concluded that 5x heavy drones in of itself is not imbalancing.

Where it could become unbalanced is when you bring in other factors, and this is the area that needs to be addressed. If the drone bay is to be expanded to a size that I think is worthwile, it's important to limit the offensive output from other sources, either guns or by other means (nos/neut). What I think is the best way to do this is changing the ship to the following configuration:

Bonuses - No changes.
Done bay - 175m3. This is the same drone bay size as a typhoon, which isn't even a drone ship. This gives you 5x heavy w/ 2 reloads, if desired, or the ability to use a mixture of other drone sizes for flexibility.
Slot configuration - 8x highslots is not only too many but also more than a few are fairly useless. Change this to 6 highslots, 5 midslots and 6 lowslots. This would enable it to tank better than the brutix in exchange for the lower DPS. Make all highslots turret hardpoints - frankly, having 6 obvious turret hardpoints on the ship and only being able to use 5 just looks dumb from a athestic standpoint.
Powergrid - REDUCE. This is a key. In order to prevent the DPS from increasing to unreasonable levels the gun caliber size must be limited and the number of nosses must also be limited by keeping the powergrid output low.

By doing this you end up with a ship that does good DPS, has the drone bay to do it's job effectively, and overall works far better than what is proposed now.

Posted - 2006.10.27 23:32:00 - [324]

 

Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Nyxus

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Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog

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According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.

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This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

Nyxus

PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else.

Nyxus

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YES PLEASE

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harbinger problems can be say more loud but not more clear

Posted - 2006.10.28 00:35:00 - [326]

 

Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Nyxus

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Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog

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According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.

---

This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

Nyxus

PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else.

Nyxus

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YES PLEASE

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Yup. Matari shouldnt have the same amount of low slots AND more grid than the Amarr BC after fitting.

Harbinger needs this or it will be completely outclassed by the Hurricane.

Elechia

Posted - 2006.10.28 01:38:00 - [328]

 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 28/10/2006 10:02:14

Originally by: Nyxus

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Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog

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According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.

---

This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

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sounds like a good idea to me.
seeing how similar those two ships are the advantage of having capless weapons which on top of it deal almost the same ammount of damage in damagetypes good against armor is far too big here.


alternatively i suggest this for the harbinger:

8/3/7 slots
8 turrets

obviously grid/cpu/cap may need some tweaks to allow proper fittings here.

very much amarr like, makes use of the last turretspot on the model and at least offers superior damage to make up for the huge capneed/bad damagetype.


edit: fixed my proposed slotlayout to properly reflect that 6+1=7

Posted - 2006.10.28 02:54:00 - [330]

 

Edited by: Care Blind on 28/10/2006 02:54:51
why, oh why, isn't anyone taking into consideration THE EFFECT OF THE CHANGES BEING DISCUSSED ON THE COMMAND SHIPS. this is getting on my nerves beyond belief..

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

are you kidding me.. the poor absolution