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Centurin
Confederation Navy Research
Epsilon Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:23:00 - [271]
 

IMO, pretty much any change to the Myrmidon would be an improvement.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:31:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Calculon
Just remember that you can't swap out to regular heavies in using the Heavy Assault Launcher. It's designed for Heavy Assault Missiles only, as far as I can tell. Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)


Can't wait for all these apparently "great" improvements YARRRR!!Cool


I still don't see a problem, we'll just see 4x HM 3x HAM setups and the like. Which is a good thing... I mean, how many variations of a Raven setup are there?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:36:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Calculon
....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)


Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults.

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:50:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio


Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.



You just compleatly owned yourself.

He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new.

#1 reason not to be a rude prick is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:54:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Blind Man
Originally by: Frools
Edited by: Frools on 27/10/2006 13:20:36
7/4/7 harbinger with 7 turrets and maybe a touch more grid would be hawt


what about the absolution? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


What about the absolution? This thread is about the new Battlecruisers.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:59:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Illuminaty
Originally by: Black Scorpio


Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.



You just compleatly owned yourself.

He isn't talking about heavy missiles, hence the reason he says heavy _assault_ missiles, which _are_ short range. Their new.

#1 reason not to be a rude prick is because you might be ill-informed, or fail to understand what is going on, and then look like a total fool.


Aahahahah, you totally got me, uhh,, wait this remark of y ours is not funny, It's crap! Cool

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:00:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Calculon
....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)


Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults.


I also hope your alt that you post off gets deleted by mistake when they implement Kali! YARRRR!!

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:07:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Zarch AlDain

In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat.

Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing.




Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you!

1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds).
2. Are of the general scenario:
a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS
b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm.
c) We've tested it and it really sucks.

to these:
1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded
2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space.
b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase.
c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is.

To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing.

I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!


Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN.

Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles

You know, those new missiles that have been added?

Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes?

Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km.

Calculon
Gallente
Darkstorm Command
Ethereal Dawn
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:13:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Calculon
....Which means you're locked into your short, less-than-15km range unless you have the T2 versions in there. :)


Which have an 100 km range. Hopefuly also an error just like the "old" damage of the rage assaults.

Aramendel, I'm willing to bet that the 100km range is incorrect. I'm betting that we'll be looking at something closer to 50km for the T2 precisions, rather than 100km. 50km is still quite a ways, but 100km is a bit rediculous.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:14:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Originally by: Zarch AlDain

In your rush to troll and flame you missed a very important fact. Heavy Assault Missiles are very short range, is the missile equivelant of a blaster boat.

Having said that Caldari are not really about fast maneouverable ships so I don't like the suggestion - that does not excuse your response though. Stop making all Caldari look like rude and arrogant idiots and start listening and participating instead of flaming and obstructing.




Heavy Assault Misiles are a very short range? Just from that buddy I can conclude you have NO IDEA on how to fly a Caldari misile boat, or have you ever flow one? Maybe you still keep your Misile skills at lvl 1. Anyone with decent misile skills - about lvl 4 at least can pull easy 60km with Heavy misiles. To me 60km is not short range. Medium at best! but not short.

As for the constructive points you say people here make, let me summarize them for you!

1. Made by Gallente/Gallente using Caldari alts to look and sound credible (sorry but your audience isn't 15yr olds).
2. Are of the general scenario:
a) DPS on such and such boat are this, on the Myr are this, increase the Myrm, cause it hase less DPS
b) Caldari ships are looking good and powerful, lets boost Myr, cause it's nothing special atm.
c) We've tested it and it really sucks.

to these:
1. No comment, whining should for once be seen for what it is and not childishly rewarded
2. a) PvP is simply not only DPS, it is far from only that taken in consideration. Take your ships flexibility options into account and stop sobbing for more drone space.
b) Is anyone here doubint that the Brutix can squash a Ferox like a fly? I guess not. I don't see anyone making the comment to adjust the Brutix or tone it down to the level ot the other 1 tier BCs. Or do you simply want a second BC that precisely match the Brutix in DPS? Apparently other considerations are made by CCP. Get a Dev to explain that to you instead of cry for a DPS increase in the case of drone space increase.
c) Well let me tell you that what you have tested will not be 10% of what the majority of PvP on TQ will be based on. So all is needed is to see is how "inadequate" this ship really is.

To all those who hide behind personal comments and accuse people of trolling I have to say one thing.

I am sorry, but there are other races in game that do not really stand anymore Gallente pilot whines on these forums. Posting with your alts is not credible and does not show the opinion of the public. Tolerate other people's opinions and for once stop whining!


Instead of throwing around your insults and hypocracy (missile launcher skills on 1? gallente alts? etc etc how is that not flaming?) stop and LISTEN.

Heavy ASSAULT Missiles not Heavy Missiles

You know, those new missiles that have been added?

Or perhaps you were too busy flaming to look at all the changes?

Go look at the stats on the new missiles and then tell me how you are going to fire them out to 60km.



I'm listening oh Friend of Everyone! YARRRR!!

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:22:00 - [281]
 

Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous.

Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target.

"I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!"

As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:32:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Jesus, how anyone can say Myr is fine as it is, is just being rediculous.

Honestly I dont get it, I realy dont, and why it shouldnt be able to replace lost drones, I swear people just want a ship thats an easy target.

"I know if I flame all the people being constructive about the Myr, when Kali goes live I can scan every single one of them down and wtfpwn them w00t, easy kills 4tw !!11!"

As someone said earlier, remove every single high slot for all I care, as long as it can BE a drone ship, atm its NOT a drone ship.


That will be fun actually a totally drone boat with no high slots, ... get as much drone space as you want then :)

heh :)YARRRR!! A nice specialized ship that in masses would be nearly indestructible... small carriers... In this case should also get a distance control bonus.

You people starting to like me yet? Rolling Eyes

SmokeDog
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [283]
 

Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though.

Centurin
Confederation Navy Research
Epsilon Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:43:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Black Scorpio
You people starting to like me yet? Rolling Eyes


When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [285]
 

Harbinger:

Originally by: Goumingdog
According to Toaster Oven, the damage difference between A T2 fitted Harbinger fitting Heavy Pulses and a T2 fitted Hurricane fitting 220's is about 4% DPS in favor of the Harbinger. But in that situation the Hurricane has 637 more powergrid to play around with than the Harbinger and doesnt used cap.


This is a problem. Traditional Amarr ships have more guns (dps) and armor tanking via extra low slots.

Change Harbinger to 7/4/7 and add 600 more base grid.

This balances it out against the Hurricane and Drake as it will have an extra low (its Amarrffs) and slightly more grid than the Hurricane after fitting comparable weapons. Hurricane will have more cpu.

Nyxus

PS- Myrm needs a bit more love, be it in drones, turrets, dampers, or something else.

Nyxus


Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [286]
 

Myrmidon :
Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY !
Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3.

No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume.
The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things.

Fixed !
Next problem please.


Temo Jick
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:54:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Centurin
Originally by: Black Scorpio
You people starting to like me yet? Rolling Eyes


When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.


I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^

To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:55:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: SmokeDog
Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though.


Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:57:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Max Hardcase
Myrmidon :
Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY !
Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3.

No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume.
The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things.

Fixed !
Next problem please.




Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered.

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:58:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Centurin
Originally by: Black Scorpio
You people starting to like me yet? Rolling Eyes


When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.


My last message was pal, it was after a suggestion of a fellow Gallente of yours.

YAYYY ugh

Black Scorpio
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: SmokeDog
Uhm well I calculated my Drake DPS last night with 3 bcu II on and it was hardly overwhelming.. granted I have Battlecruisers 1 and Heavy Assault Missiles 2 at the moment and was using Arbalest Heavy Assault Launchers.. 153dmg per missile and a 3.56sec rof.. about 300dps, granted there a lot of room for improvement.. maybe can get the DPS up to 500.. with a max range of 15km (max missile skills, which I have except for the HAMs) and a top speed of 400m/s with an afterburner II (max nav), hardly overpowered though.


Well, with 2 BCU2 and rage you can get over 600 dps with max skills (and 5 hobgoblins). With javelin assaults you can push it to almost 500 dps for up to 60 km atm.


Hey Alt, what is the penalty again for using the Rage "HAM"s that you so much push forward?

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:59:00 - [292]
 

moved....

Basically

This would be awesome....

11-16% damage modifer with the same size drone bay.


or

"Allows the operatation of 1 more drone"
With the drone bay of 120m3

That means 2 waves of 6 medium drones..

Or one wave of ultra gank 4 heavies and 2 mediums...
With no gun/missile bonuses, I think this would be inline with the other teir 2 battlecruisers...

It doesn't break lore.

The domi gets 2 damage bonuses, hence the myrmidon shouldn't out dps it with 4 heavies and 2 mediums +drone damage bonus and medium guns...

It also puts to bed the "omg, 5 heavies, but liek, whats the point of the domi" argument even though it's already a flamsy one tbh.

It's something new and exciting and innovativly redefines the "drone boat" concept...


i'd like to see 6 drones on the hype too, however thats another story...


Feel free to work out the maths and the combat implications of this idea! I'd also like to know myself!
YARRRR!!

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:02:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Temo Jick
Originally by: Centurin
Originally by: Black Scorpio
You people starting to like me yet? Rolling Eyes


When you start being constructive, I'll start to like you.


I think he was coming around to the drone side a bit there, lets not scare him off ^.^

To Smokedog, with just level one in BC the Myrmidon will be just as bad off. Ship bonuses make a huge differances.


Yes I know, I'm just saying that the DPS on the Drake is good but not really spectacular.. I have 15mil in missile op, but my skills for Drake blow at the moment (bcruiser 1, ham 2), 300 DPS isn't bad for my current skill level with the ship + weapons, but I don't see the DPS really getting much higher than 500 with a max range of 15KM.. people are talking like the Drake is a 1k DPS ship or something. =P

Drake + Rage Heavy Assault is probably going to be pretty good though vs battleships..

Max Hardcase
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:06:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Myrmidon :
Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY !
Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3.

No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume.
The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things.

Fixed !
Next problem please.




Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered.


Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ?
Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well.

Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well Cool


Centurin
Confederation Navy Research
Epsilon Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:12:00 - [295]
 

The fact is that you can already use heavy drones on the Myrmidon. I don't see how adding an extra heavy is making it uber. I don't see a problem with making it a mini-domi. After all, it doesn't have a hybrid bonus like the domi. Like I've said in previous posts, giving the Myrmidon a large drone bay doesn't increase the DPS all that much. It just makes sure that it has extras to use. Although, I personally think the rep bonus is a nerf in itself considering the HP increases.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:14:00 - [296]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 27/10/2006 20:16:44
Originally by: Max Hardcase

Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ?



You're not being totally clear here. If you mean that the Myr will be a Dom if it can use 5 heavy drones, you're forgetting:

- 5 med guns with no damage bonus
- 6 large guns with +5%/lvl damage bonus

That's a big difference.

The Myr needs 5 heavy drones. Remove a turret if you must, but it needs those 5 heavies plus some spares.

The other suggested fixes have problems. Boosting the drone bonus but having it only apply to med drones can lead to balance problems, do you really want med drones that do close-to-heavy damage while still traveling at med drone speeds? Probably not, if you're on the receiving end. And as for giving the ship >5 drones it can control, I'm not sure the devs want large drone swarms -- getting rid of them was the whole point of the last big drone change.

If the Myr is supposed to be a drone BC, it needs to *be* a "mini-Dominix". Now it's a Vexor with some chrome and furry dice. Very Happy

Centurin
Confederation Navy Research
Epsilon Fleet
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:17:00 - [297]
 

+1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. Very Happy

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:20:00 - [298]
 

Originally by: Centurin
+1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. Very Happy


Oh yeah. Twisted Evil

Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:21:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Centurin
+1 drone per level is not viable at this point. But man, would it be cool. Very Happy

not one more drone per level, just a static extra drone for the battlecruiser skill Smile

Temo Jick
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.27 20:23:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Temo Jick on 27/10/2006 20:44:11
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Originally by: Nebuli
Originally by: Max Hardcase
Myrmidon :
Change drone bonus to 15%/level for medium and light scout drones ONLY !
Up the the drone bay to say 125 or 150m3.

No worries about using teh ebil heavy drones so they can unnerf the drone bay volume.
The Drone bonus is now right in between the Vexor and Domi, which makes sense since a BC is right in between cruisers and battleships in the order of things.

Fixed !
Next problem please.




Still yet to see a good reason why the Myr using heavy drones makes it overpowered.


Cause you have a domi if you want teh uber hvy drones ?
Seriously though the limitations of bonus to "correct size" drone types should have been done a long time ago. It makes sense for guns and launchers, makes sense for drones as well.

Hmm if they really want to make it a standoff Droneboat why not add a 10%/level to drone MWD speed as well Cool




It only makes sense for drones if this BC can field more then 5. Personally I donít want that it means more lag and itís a step back to eveís past, but hay its better then the broken BC we have right now so I'll take it if I have to.

BC's so far have not had bigger guns/launchers then cruisers because they could have more of them. But you can only have 5 drones out unless you fly a Guardian Vexor (super rare for a reason) or a carrier. That means a drone ship of the BC class has to either have more medium drones for its damage or bigger drones for its damage. Personally I think more then 5 medium drones would be a more overpowered option then 5 heavyís as medium drones are faster smaller have better tracking and you can get tech II with far less training then you need for tech II heavyís. Personally I wouldnít even use regular heavy drones over regular mediums because of the bad tracking.


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