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CCP Mephysto

Posted - 2006.10.26 10:17:00 - [1]
 

Discuss here so we dont have to read 500000000 threads.

Blind Man
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:23:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Blind Man on 26/10/2006 10:28:23
I may as well post my thread here then.

considering BC level 5:

Caldari
ArrowFerox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?)
ArrowThe Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway.
ArrowDrake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change.
ArrowI also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship.

Amarr
I see more of the same here.
ArrowThe Harbinger gets 7 guns, whereas the Absolution gets 6. Unless you have command ships level 5 (Damage AND ROF bonus on Absolution both come from this skill) I believe that a Harbinger comes very close DPS-wise.
ArrowI didn't check the other BC's but the Harbinger has more armor HP than the absolution? Shocked

Minmatar
ArrowTo MATCH the damage of a hurricane, you need command ships 5 on a Sleipnir. Now given that a hurricane loses a lot of tank to use 3 gyros where the Sleipnir loses nothing, it may seem as less of a problem. However the ability to fit MWD, scram, web, and cap injector AND have the same damage as a Sleipnir, seems a bit silly.

Gallente
Actually don't see much wrong here, Brutix and Astarte seem fine, and the Myrmidon- it seems to be nicely lower in damage than the Eos (the way it should be.) oh well i guess it gets an armor rep bonus and like the drake they are supposed to be more damage dealers.

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:31:00 - [3]
 

The Myrm needs a larger drone bay.

With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS.

25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty.

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Blind Man

ArrowFerox and Drake, they both get a shield res bonus (I thought the tier 2's were more 'damage dealers'?)


True enough, but I can't really endorse the idea that this thing does even more damage.
Originally by: Blind Man

ArrowThe Drake also gets another mid and high over the Ferox, making it a better tank anyway.


Also true.
Originally by: Blind Man

ArrowDrake also gets 7 launchers and a ROF bonus, compared to 5 rails and a optimal bonus on the Ferox. Maybe change the Ferox to have less missiles and 7 guns? the Vulture would also need this change.


Yea, after this I feel that the Ferox will need to have a look at in order to not become useless to anyone who is not using it as a stepping stone between the Moa and Rokh.
Originally by: Blind Man

ArrowI also thing the Drake just does too much damage compared to the Nighthawk. If the Nighthawk uses anything but kinetic missiles, the drake will out damage it. There needs to be a much bigger gap between T1 and T2 if you look at the amount of skills and ISK required for a command ship.

Also an issue, but the Drake doesn't have the resists of the NightHawk. Though I do agree their comparative damages need some tweaking.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:32:00 - [5]
 

the nighthawk needs a 7th launcher, that should have been painfully apparent right from the start though.

madaluap
Gallente
Anthrax Foundation
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:42:00 - [6]
 

If you want these tier2 bc balanced, than the Myrm needs more dronebay!

Atleast 150m3 so it can field 5 heavy and 5 small, remember it doesnt get bonus to turrets and has the highest sig of all bc.

It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:47:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 10:48:04
Oh and please fix the model/texture on the Harbinger so that the last turret isn't lopsided on the bottom, move it to the centre of the ship - or give it its 8th turret back =P

Originally by: madaluap
It gets outdamaged big time by all the new BC.

And the Brutix.

Leshrac Shepherd
Amarr
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:54:00 - [8]
 

Changing the resistance bonus on the drake to missile speed seems to make some sense, even if only for the sake of consistence, missile ships rarely get resistance bonuses, with the only case being the nighthawk.

I also think adding an extra turret to the merlin, moa, raptor, eagle and ferox wouldn't hurt anything balance wise, not that it matters as the only way to make them popular would be making them better than their equivalent missile ships, and I don't have to explain how ridiculous would that be.

I understand why people want a bigger drone bay in the myrmidon, It makes sense that you should able to bring spare wings of drones with you, the problem is that allowing that would also make the myrmidon's firepower go even higher than it is now, and it wouldn't really be fair. Anyway, it presents choices, you can either pack 4 heavy drones for max damage or 10 med drones or any combination to have spare ones. It doesn't seem so bad once you factor in the ship also has 8 hi slots and 5 turrets.

Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.26 10:58:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Butter Dog
The Myrm needs a larger drone bay.

With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS.

25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty.



Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus.

Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective.

I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:04:00 - [10]
 

I don't think that the "final" version of the Drake will be keeping that 5% shield resists bonus... or at least I hope so.
It's got roughly enough of a gank going (so damage bonus would be overkill, but range not so much), no need to give it more tank (I thought it's supposed to be inferior in tanking to the Ferox, it's not).

Change that 5% shield resist to kinetic missile damage (or missile speed, or missile flight time) or even (semi-useless bonus) of less capacitor for shieldboosters (as if you wouldn't use it as passive tank anyway... this way you could make it work as active tank too).

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:16:00 - [11]
 

The extra drone bay on the gallente BC seems like a good idea as currently it's pretty pathetic. If it's considered too strong to let it field 5 heavy drones then why not have it with a 150m3 drone bay but its drone bonus only applies on light and medium drones. That's an incentive to use smaller drones and use the drone bay for replacements/options instead of racks of heavy drones.

The drakes does seem rather strong - but possibly only because the ferox is so weak. The ferox needs more turert hardpoints.

I would like to see the drake be weaker defensively for balance reasons (although I would love to fly it how it is now!) so perhaps it should get a 5% damage bonus on kinetic missiles instead of the current resist bonus? This does give it an option of increasing damage output, but only by tieing it to one damage type.

Lydia Browm
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:19:00 - [12]
 

The BC's damage should be close the that of its T2 variant ie the Field Command, with the same damage you are forgetting the CS still has the bigger tanks.

Myrmidon (sp) give it 25m3 more dronebay or give it a 15% bonus to drones? or 12.5%. Or maybe 10% bonus to the damage and a 20% bonus to its hitpoints. I criplled a Myrmidon with T2 heavies in a basic T1 / namd setup lock drones web shoot rinse and repeat 4 times. Left it criplled and then slowly went through its tank. PLEASE don't give it a hybrid bonus Wink

Drake give it slightly less pg so that it can't fit a nasty tank aswell as assault missiles or heavies. I swa one drake had a tank 3 bcu pdu and heavy missiles and i tried to take him in the hurricane, didn't manage but was probably using the wrong ammo Embarassed

The Amarr pretty good, maybe give it some more cap, fits Heavy Pulse II and a decent gank setup Razz

Hurricane pretty good deal some damage and can look after itself long enough to kill most armour tanking ships becuase I use Fusin on shield too RazzEmbarassedLaughing

Don't nerf them completely, just try and keep them on PAR with CS damage but just bare 1 thing in mind, they won't be able to tank Surprised

And one last thing Look ma I'm in a DEV's thread LaughingLaughingEmbarassed


Mysterlee
Gallente
FezCorp
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:20:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:21:32
Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:20:39
The Myrmidon definately needs a bigger drone bay, 175m3 would be a nice value and allows more variety in its choice of drones. Fielding 1 extra heavy drone vs the 4 it can currently field wont make a huge difference to its DPS.

The ship texture of the Myrmidon could do with having the 6th turret hardpoint removed and it could also do with being a bit more detailed, it looks a bit cartoony as it is right now.

I'm not sure but the 7th turret hardpoint of the Hurricane and Harbinger could be swapped for a launcher slot and the 7th launcher slot on the Drake removed to bring their DPS slightly lower than their T2 equivalents and also lower the powergrid slightly to compensate.

Their T2 equivalents should also have their models replaced with the new tier 2 BC models and have their stats adjusted to match the tier 2 BCs more closely.

Bramson
Astromecha Industries
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:27:00 - [14]
 

Myrmidon

I disagree with increasing the drone bay anymore that it currently is. With the current 100 m3 drone bay that is 2 waves of tech 2 medium drones which can rip up a cruiser and other battlecruisers while still doing decent damage to battleships. I really like how this ship is setup currently - It is a step between a VEXOR and a DOMINEX for purpose of survivability and being a drone boat.

On a side note: The designer of this ship created it with the purpose of using 6 turret slots and currently with its 5 turret slots it looks like it is missing a turret.

######
Caldari Battlecruiser

Usually with Caldari you can see a progression of ship types in the sizes.
For example: Cruiser Moa and BattleCruiser Ferox have similiar bonus's and good for your average hybrid specialized caldari pilot especially now they have to look forward to the Rokh.
With the new BC for Caldari which is more like a CARACAL and a mini Raven - you would think it would have the normal % bonus to kinetic missile damage and missile velocity bonus. Giving it the 5% shield per level as well is pretty extreme ;).


Old Geeza
The Retirement Home
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:31:00 - [15]
 

If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port.

Butter Dog
Gallente
The Monocled Elite
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Old Geeza
Originally by: Butter Dog
The Myrm needs a larger drone bay.

With no damage bonus to guns, and no replacement drones in the hold... its going to be VERY simple to pop its drones and leave it with frankly pathetic DPS.

25m3 more than Vexor, 275m3 less than Domi... for a the ship in between the two? Don't be naughty.



Use your brain - the moment it gets a 125m3 drone bay it can dish out the same DPS as the Dominix. With this ship, you either need to use 4 heavies or have 2 waves of mediums. Replace the armour rep bonus with a 25% hybrid damage bonus.

Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective.

I haven't had a chance to properly look into the Amarr one, so I won't comment on it.


'Same DPS as Dominix'. Really, Mr Exclamation Mark. What insight you have.

The Dominix can EASILY top 1000 DPS. In fact, it is in theory the highest DPS ship in the whole game. Havent you trained large blasters yet? I recommend you do. The Dominix is more than simply a Nos boat. The bonus to large hybrids should not be wasted.

I'll tell you what anyone with the slightest bit of PvP savvy will do when they see a Myrm in its current state: They will pop the drones and render it utterly useless.

100m3 simply is not big enough for a ship which is mid-way between the Vexor and Dominix.

V0idz
Herrscher der Zeit
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:35:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: V0idz on 26/10/2006 11:35:50
I've to agree to nearly all posts about the Gallente BC. The Myrmidon needs a bigger dronebay but only an bous to light- and med-drone damage per level.

Example 1 (Drone related):

- 175m dronebay
- 7,5% Damage for Light- and Med-Drones per Skill-Level

Example 2 (Drone related):

- 150m dronebay
- 5% more dronebay capacity per Skill-Level

something like this..

jm2c

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Old Geeza

Regarding the Drake, I suggest it get a 25% kinetic missile damage bonus instead of a launcher ROF (which equates to a 33% dps boost for all missile types). Also, take off a mid and add a low - it doesn't need anywhere near 6 midslots to be effective.



Sweet jesus no.Sad It's nice being able to Get decent damage out of all missile types rather than one kind. And the Slot swapping? eugh, no. That Extra mid allows it to do so much, a Warp Scrambler is needed for PvP.

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:40:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Old Geeza
If it gets 50% range or velocity to missiles it becomes even more overpowered with assault missiles. Those things are already going to tear most ships a new exhaust port.


Speed hurricanes will be a great counter to Assault Drakes. They'll jsut stay out of range and whittle you down in a 1v1, and in general PvP there will be plenty of other ships doing this too.

Namtuk
Minmatar
Dynaverse Corporation
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:50:00 - [20]
 

So basicaly u guys are asking for another overpowered Caldari ships, drake with 25% dmg bonus lol nice joke, as for the statement BS dmf should be close to there T2 variant whats that all about train for months only tom senn some noobs getting into a ship that needs very basic skills and be able to do same dmg or more with right setup, hmm let me see I THINK NO to that one

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:51:00 - [21]
 

Drake seems very nice - very capable and I think people is just scared... 7 launchers with rof bonus seems like much but the other ships got a lot of weapons too, and even the gallente tier 1 BC should still be able outdamage the Drake...

6 medslots is needed for a Caldari PvP ship of this size... We won't be able to get asweet passive tanked Drake spitting out Heavies/Heavy Assaults, so we need all 6 slots for tank, scrambler and Afterburners/MicroWarpDrives and I still doubt we'll have a strong tank...

Shield Resist Bonus - That will help the shield tank a lot... If it doesn't stay I can understand it, but only because the ferox gunboat already has this bonus. 6 medslots isn't a lot so if it stays it'll ease up the pain a bit to get a descent tank while still having a free slot for mwd/scrambler... I guess thats why it's on testserver Cool

Pinky

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.10.26 11:54:00 - [22]
 

Why not give the Myrmidon the drone bay it needs and then restrict the drone bonuses to only light and medium drones (thus leaving the Domi as the heavy drone boat).

Kapitanleutnant Mei
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:03:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kapitanleutnant Mei on 26/10/2006 12:20:01
my suggestion is simple GANK not TANK
ArrowDRAKE:
replace 5% shield resist bonus with 10% missile velocity- this make it even more of a killing machine but a lot more vulnerable. It also makes sense for consitencies's sake and don't raise its dps any further which is important
Arrow Myrmidon:
(I'm less certain about these so they may suck)
replace 10% drone damage bonus with +10M3 of drone bay per skill level - it can now use your 5 heavies but is more vulnerable
replace armour rep bonus with 5% med hybrid damage per level, again this makes it more deadly but as we've removed the drone hitpoint damage bonus this helps offset that by ensuring its not totally fubared if it has to bring out its lights.
I don't fly ammarr or minnie but from what i;ve seen they seem to work very well- the Ammarr one could possibly do with like 25 more grid just to ease its fitting but that's about it, the minnie one looks pure sex

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:07:00 - [24]
 

Harbringer is a pain to fit. Im with AWU 4 and fit heavy pulses + ab + 800 plate + small rep its my max this is even counting turret rigs with make it worse. I tried fit a cap booster but there isnt enough powergrid

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [25]
 

hey hey

Hurricane

Description on the Hurricane "suggests its gonna be fast" its base speed is the same as the cyclone. I'd love and think that its base speed should be slightly improved to reflect this.

4x mids on a matari ship :/ i ws expecting a shield tanking Arty boat but its looking towards an auto cannon setup.

Grid : Tried to get a 720mm setup acros the top and a semi decent armor tank in the lows and totally failed. ( and i have high skills) next trip will try autos as i suspect this will be more suited for.

Looks : OMFG yeah it looks sexhey but doesnt fit matari style; however looks awesomely shagable.

Drone bay needs a tweek. its smalller than the Cyclones and really should be bigger.

Damage looks strong and the bonus fits matari designs but the balance between Tier II and Commands would then be out of whack.

not convinced id buy one or if it will be effective PvE but if the base speed was tweeked and maybe a bonus to MWD or AB i think it would be pretty good PvP in a small roaming gank squad. TBH i much prefer the cyclone.

CAP : yes i think the increased cap is spot on.

Skill Req. Skill should req. BC 2 minimum. I know most will train ship skills to 3 min but 2 really should be required for a tier II ship.

I'll flight test it some more, blow a few up, and tank test it till it breaks. Im not keen on it ( im 100% minmatar spec'ed ) but will keep an open mind atm.


keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:11:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: keepiru on 26/10/2006 12:14:23
Even with 5 heavy drones and the current bonuses the Myrm wont come even close to Domi DPS - just like the Ishtar doesent. It ill be about 3-400 DPS short, which is LOADS.

It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix...

Originally by: Mikal Drey
Im not keen on it

You are insane, your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Wink

Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing.

More speed = good though ^_^

Dont touch the bonuses on pain of sodastreamed bree.

Kapitanleutnant Mei
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:18:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: keepiru


It will, in fact, still do less damage than a brutix...



I don't understand the problem with this- the brutix does phenominal dps- its a blaster boat , and you want to give the myr MORE Rolling Eyes

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:26:00 - [28]
 

You do realize that the domi outdamages the megathron, yes?

Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: keepiru
your name is on the list and some nice men will come by your house tonight to take care of you. Wink

Its a zomgawesome AC boat, ACs > Arty, dont you dare touch it to make it another lame shield-tanked artypantsthing.


IF the speed and agility gets increased Id forsee a stabber/vaga styled BC and yes it would Pwn. the cap looks good for a dual rep setup and 5/2 autos and the new heavy assault missiles will be pretty damn cool. but in its current state its still a minne sludge monkey.

Also with such a good bonus and AC effectiveness the sleipnir might need an upgrade (slightly) STILL NOT KEEN and i can hear them comming
oh and Cyclone for Claymore graphic and Hurricane for the sleipnir :)

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 12:31:00 - [30]
 

Here's an interesting titbit on the Myrmidon:
5 Medium drones do 237.6 thermal damage or less (there is no way at all to get it higher).

Here's an interesting titbit on cruisers:
Cruisers generally aren't ripped apart by merely 250dps.

The damage output of the Myrmidon is low. It's lack of replacements crippling. This could be weighed up by being placed on an adequate backup platform with either turret-based damage or electronics based backup, but the Myrmidon is, with the changes to ECM, not capable of performing neither.
It needs it's drone bay doubled or more (this would at most add 95 more dps to the Myrmidon, which would allow it to compete with the other BCs for dps if it sacrifices it's tank - you can't tank with two low slots and an MWD on board).


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