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Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.29 19:04:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Saboro Kai
Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being Rolling Eyes.

There is no easy fixing of the cap problem. Simply giving it more cap would overpower it with certain weapons and also make the armageddon and apocalypse useless.
And no, a giant arbi would not be a good mining ship. Ever counted the turret hardpoints on an arbitrator?

Imo the Abaddon concept (tank or gank) failed since it can do neither for a reasonable time without the cap reduction bonus and on top it's really boring to have a 3rd ship that is so similar to the 2 existing ones.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.29 19:17:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Saboro Kai
Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being Rolling Eyes.


cant really talk about its mining capabilities as i havent mined for a few years. usually i use my arbi for pvp where it easily outclasses our other t1 crusiers.

however i'm not so sure why you think a big arbi bs with 3 turrets and 5 drones without a mining bonus would make a good mining ship considering that the tux-abaddon has 8 turrets and can also field 5 mining drones.






Saboro Kai
Posted - 2006.10.29 21:35:00 - [243]
 

And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a changeugh

AlexCA
Amarr
De Valken BV
Orange Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.29 21:47:00 - [244]
 

Abaddon needs to be a turret boat so those nicely modeled 8 hardpoints dont go to waste, might just be better to redefine the amarr BS line, 2 classical amarr designs (one of wich the abbadon model) and 1 of the lower 2 tiers a mishmash ship like the arbi (combination of tracking disruptors, drones and missiles)

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.29 21:48:00 - [245]
 

Maybe perhaps laser turret cap reduction rigs could help compensate for the Abbaddons issues? Perhaps the laser bonus should be 5% damage and not rate of fire too?

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:09:00 - [246]
 

im waiting to get in sisi to test abaddon with rigs.Anyways abaddon should have more powergrid than maelstorm. Since its an armor tanker and their guns use more grid

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:36:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 29/10/2006 22:36:48
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak
because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).


Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.

Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.



true there, however, only caldari has ECM as a more pro-active type of Ewar that is usefull in general fleet wether long or short range, while all the other races Ewar mods are more skirmish related (damps and TD's have too short range for fleet battle usage and TP's are nigh useless except for a few, very specific situations)


so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.

for caldari I see more long range firepower projection (even if missiles are sometimes slow to go long ranges, they still go long range, specially with many bonuses for missile speed and flight time that exist in caldari ships), and ECM.

the caldari BS lineup is perfect because CCP apparently intends to create a standartized fleet battleship with tier 3, wich favours caldari racial concept more since they lack a better long range platform capable of projecting damage at long ranges.
Raven can project such firepower, but due to the inherent lack of instant damage that missiles give, they are nigh useless in today's long range fleetbattles.

What about the other races?

Bar the gallente tier3, which is intended to be the ultimate blaster boat, CCP wants to create solid fleet ships in an, already saturated of range capable fleet ships (specially the amarr, since both geddon and apoc can go fleet).

So TBH, while the inclusion of a tier3 battleship is welcome to increase the number of options in the battleship range, it will be impossible to fit such ships in this class, bar the caldari, unless they change the pre-existing battleships, or they change the approach they want to do in the tier3.
To be quite honest, I prefer the first option, and I believe aswell that CCP will choose first, if they intend to bring out tier3's with little(advised) to no changes(NOT advised).

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.29 22:47:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: Saboro Kai
And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a changeugh



1. all the complaints brought up now were alreay brought up and apparently ignored when tux first announced the abaddon bonuses. so far he has not even seen fit to share his thoughts on why amarr does not deserve a ship filling a role different from those we already have on the bs level.

2. its a combat ship. of course its designed for pvp. it should not be designed just with fleet battles in mind and thats one of the reasons why i'm not happy with it. we already have 2 other battleships which perform fine at these. and the only thing the abaddon with its current bonuses really shines at will be long range fleet battles.

3. if you want to run missions/complexes with an amarrian bs you will most likely be better off with the apoc or geddon because you need sustainable dmg+tank for this kind of combat. with the abaddon that will only work well with projectile weapons fitted. i hear its a better miner though.


Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.29 23:32:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2006 23:36:09
Originally by: Grimpak

so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.



for amarr the problems with this concept are:
1. once kali 1 gets released we will no longer have turret superiority
2. our tankers use cap heavy weapons which counters their own tankpower
3. tanking is not all that nice for pvp (you cant concentrate tanks for example)


Originally by: Grimpak

Bar the gallente tier3, which is intended to be the ultimate blaster boat, CCP wants to create solid fleet ships in an, already saturated of range capable fleet ships (specially the amarr, since both geddon and apoc can go fleet).



well thats one of the things that make me wonder how they decided what those ships would become.

caldari: easy enough they lacked the turretboat...sniperbonus like the smaller caldari gunboats

gallente: they already have the mega for fleet use so they get a specialized blasterboat (even though that may have its own issues).

minmatar: a specialized fleetship with 8 turrets and enough grid for artillery instead of their usuall split setups. the tanking bonus isnt all that great for fleet battles and everyone knows it (including tux) since it was first announced. still no change there.

amarr: we have 2 good fleetships to start with which already makes us stick out in this department. for some reason its decided we need to get another one. to make it clear that its a fleetship it gets rof+armor resist as bonuses, slotlayout and dronespace are copied over from the apoc to save some time, total powergrid is copied from the maelstrom design because that makes no sense at all. this leaves us with a ship with better overall stats than both apoc and geddon while outperforming them only as a longrange fleetship with some plates as a passive tank. to make sure people dont use it for other situations it doesnt get the laser capuse reduction. not a problem for sniperfleets. you propably wont sit there and fire for ages anyway and the passive tank may buy you some more time to get out should you attract fire. also it would be evne more obvious that its jsut a better verison of already existing ships if they had given it the laser capuse bonuse instead of the armor one.


Originally by: Grimpak

So TBH, while the inclusion of a tier3 battleship is welcome to increase the number of options in the battleship range, it will be impossible to fit such ships in this class, bar the caldari, unless they change the pre-existing battleships, or they change the approach they want to do in the tier3.
To be quite honest, I prefer the first option, and I believe aswell that CCP will choose first, if they intend to bring out tier3's with little(advised) to no changes(NOT advised).


well if they really wanted (as in planned to do this) to create fleet ships for tier3 i wonder why they didnt follow through with the gallente one. if there were some plans to change the apoc and/or geddon to prevent us from having 3 almost identical ships that would be fine with me. in fact i would prefer it if our top tier battleship was a laser spewing fleetship and we got a support or otherwise specialist ship for tier 1 or 2.

however there have be no such announcements and if they had designed the abaddon with this in mind then there would really be no reason not to explain it to the players. especially after being asked about it for over 2 months now.


Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2006.10.30 00:43:00 - [250]
 

Edited by: Ishina Fel on 30/10/2006 00:46:12
I've read for a while now, seen some good and some bad suggestions on the topic of fitting the new ships into specific roles... As far as I'm concerned I'd do the following:

Caldari: no change required, ships stay as they are

Minmatar, the easiest case:

-Rework the Typhoon to be a fullscale missile ship. Give it one defensive bonus and one target painter bonus. However, it needs to be a painter bonus that is worth it, not just some negligible 5% per level. The idea is that the Typhoon *optimizes* its damage with missiles by targetpainting the enemy instead of simply pumping up the base damage with offensive bonuses - this differentiates it from the Raven (along with being armortanked). That means the Typhoon should be able to targetpaint at vast distances (150km and more) and achieve significant signature increases (50% and more). This would probably turn the Typhoon into a specialized cruiser-killer, much like destroyers are specialized frigate-killers. Together with it being a dedicated missile ship, I don't think any Minmatar could complain about it not filling a unique role in the racial lineup. Finally, since everyone benefits from painted targets, it could be a good long-range support ship in fleets that contain capitals.

-Take the Tempest and the Maelstrom and optimize one for artillery duty and the other for autocannon ownage, thus filling the two turret roles.

Gallente, the moderately difficult case:

-The Megathron currently makes both a fine blasterboat and a fine sniper, or so I've been told. So if you want to achieve a better distinction between it and the Hyperion (assuuming the latter stays a dedicated Blasterboat), then unfortunately the Megathron needs a cut in versatility. Make it heavier, give it a little more grid. Change the tracking bonus into a sensor dampener bonus. Basically a ship that stays way out there and tries to ruin the enemy's ability to fire back.

-The Hyperion should get the tracking bonus the Megathron just lost. This immediately makes it a very dangerous blasterboat, and that is all it really needs! This bonus should go into the slot of the "we don't really know yet what we should put there" bonus that the devs still have there.

Amarr, the difficult case:

-Apocalypse and Armageddon... two ships that already can perform similar duties. I must admit that Amarr ships are the ones I know the least about. But from how I see it - one ship has 8 turrets, the other ship has 7 slightly faster firing turrets. Of course, the Apocalypse has that cap bonus and overally better stats, but they're still extremely similar. In addition, pulse lasers and beam lasers by far aren't so distinctly differentiated like blasters/rails or autocannons/artillery, making it a bit pointless to try and create a sniper and a short-range ship. So, what to do:

-Take the three Amarr battleships and give one a more distinct offensive bias, and the second a more distinct defensive bias. Then one could be the fleet ganker ship, and the other could be the solo PvP / PvE ship. Giving Amarr a ship with a stronger offense might also pacify a few of them "Amarr suck" forum spammers. The third should get tracking disruptor bonuses, and maybe something entirely Amarr-unique: think about it, they're the Imperialists. Wouldn't it be totally their style to have a big, fat royal command battleship for their medal-loaded royal admirals? Yes, give the third ship gang bonuses of some sort, plus the ability to fit warfare links and gang support modules. Then that ship could shine in a role that no other faction has, by having the entire fleet revolve around them.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 01:04:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
lotsa stuff



exactly.

The amarr concept is, at first sight, pretty simple and doesn't have many flaws: big hulks of super-armored ships with hard-hitting powerfull lasers, while sacrificing electronics and flexibility.
It is a nice concept, at first sight.
However in nowadays such concept is hampered by:

A) the fact that amarr ships don't have that much cap, realy.
B) their armor is not thick enough
and
C) the omni-tank.

increasing the cap in a generous way, and giving an extra boost to armor, on top of the kali boost, would re-define the amarr as still the "all-powerfull, laser-spewing, super-armored race that can't be arsed to be flexible" concept that, I believe, is the amarr trait.
Still, such thing requires allot of testing since it can open a bigger can of worms than the one you just closed.


as for the rest, I believe that CCP wanted to make tier3, a true fleet ship (bar the gallente one, but that's a diferent issue alltogether), and, disregarding caldari, which got their much needed turret battleship, I don't see why should we pick the abbadon/maelstrom over the tempest/apoc/geddon, at least with the current status/bonuses.



So all in all, considering the current stats, eve warfare, and balance one can say that, bar the Rohk, none of the tier3's have a REAL place in the battleship lineups.

Captain Raynor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.30 03:48:00 - [252]
 

One thing about the whole Maelstorm/Abbaddon same grid stuff, one thing Tux must do in Kali is freaking balance autocannon / artillery powergrid usage.. it's pretty out of whack right now..

Krav
Order of the Redeeming Light
Posted - 2006.10.30 03:57:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Dupac
The Abbadon is supposed to be better, please make it better.

Including Drones its about the same DPS as a geddon (with a slightly better tank) and much worse cap.

Has the same grid and less CPU than the Maelstrom yet requires more grid for guns and it's an armour tanker.

and can't do better than quoting this:

Originally by: Toaster Oven

Finally got onto Sisi for some testing. Here are some numbers for those of you wondering about the cap issue

Relevant skills info
Max gunnery, including Controlled Bursts 5
Amarr BS 5
Max cap skills
Max armor tanking skills
No implants

Testing scenario
Undock from station with 100% cap, 4 cap booster 800s loaded, and another 12 in cargo. Measure time from initial firing till cap death (ie. one or modules inactivate due to insufficient cap). If using cap booster (1x Heavy Electrochemical), cap boosting begins almost immediately after firing commences. If using repairer, delay 10sec before activating. Results are average of 3 attempts.

Results

8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 21sec
8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II with cap booster: 4min 21 sec, last cap booster consumed at 3min 53sec
8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 1x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 58sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining
8x MP II + Conflag + 3x HS II + 2x LAR II with cap booster: 1min 7sec, 12 cap booster 800s remaining

8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II without cap booster: 1min 3sec
8x Tachyon II + Aurora + 3x HS II with cap booster: 2min 6sec, 8 cap booster 800s remaining

These numbers are the *absolute best* you can expect and tbh a bit unrealistic. There aren't too many fights where you start out with 100% cap and have no one NOSing you. In testing, you can expect closer to 2/3 those times in a normal PVP scenario both short and long range. Or less if you're fighting a NOS Domi Mad. I capped out almost every time when fighting another BS. The cap use is simply put beyond ridiculous.

Devs, I hope you reconsider and turn the Abbadon into something useful. As it stands, it's simply a joke and you should be ashamed for even releasing it. Gimme a ship where I can use both bonuses at the same time, like every other ship in the game

/signed




/signed...

Abaddon is not worth the isk as it stands today... This ship is just screaming to use projectiles instead of lasers again, kinda like the Apoc. I am not going to use minmatar weapons on an amarr bs, and I don't think I should _have to_ in order to make the ship usable. Props to Toaster Oven's test for pointing out the most glaring inconsistancies.

Krav

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.30 04:11:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:50:42
Originally by: Nifel

Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.


Good post. Makes me want that resistance bonus for the Maelstrom tbh, because its actually also much more versatile than the shield hp bonus imo. CCP keep saying versatile for minmatar, but doesnt really back it up with bonuses. A shield resist bonus is versatile, a shield boost or hp bonus is not, because it locks the ships tanking into one option only to take advantage of it.

Its very bad to be competing with caldari for bonuses...



The HP bonus will always give more hp/s on passive recharge (if Maelstorm stats stay the way they are now that is) than the res bonus. Playing with the real stats the Maelstorm will have a maximum shield recharge of 38.4 hp/s with max skills, no modules and no gang. On the Rohk that'd be 20.4 hp/s which translates into 27.2 effective hp/s regen for em damage with the res bonus in play.

They're two different bonuses, but I'd dare say they'd be equally good with the current stats on the BS we have, unless I've missed something -_^;;. Ofc... something's bound to go ape**** anyway :\.

Thelgor
Caldari
Posted - 2006.10.30 04:52:00 - [255]
 

Though Caldari, I fly Amarr. Level 5 in all ship types.

Throughout my almost 3 years in eve I have seen lasers go from useful, to useless.

To put it plainly lasers now = underpowered.

Look at it thus;

Relative same dmg to projectiles, give or take some skills on each. They used to be better then rails (I'm so glad Caldari, which I also fly, got that much needed boost to the powerhouse ships they already have) but with the new changes they'll be on par with those as well, give or take a skill or three. They use massive cap, which is always an issue. Weapons using cap? Oh shizzle. No repairing for me.
The cap bonus we DO get, to make up for the cripple effect we have, only takes away from having another bonus like all the other races.

I.E No cap to shoot? Here, have a bonus, which will only HELP negate the lack of cap. While the other ships bask in the greatness of 2 awesome bonus's that make them BETTER, not help them recover from polio.

EM and Therm dmg. Okay, I understand the logic of it. Beam of light = Heat/Therm... EM dmg? Okay, I'll roll with that. The other races get to pick and choose dmg? So what, I don't have limited ammo and no reload time. All well and good until I run into an armour tank. It's like watching a mute kitten try to kill a dog by screaming. Stupid. It wasn't so bad before the laser dmg nerf. Now it just rams home the boost the rails are getting.

So now we have the 2 BS's the Amarr started with, basically 2nd to the other races. (except the minnie's pilots who thought they only needed to train projectiles... fools!)

Here's an idea! How about another LASER BS. And not only do the lasers cripple you to start off... but we'll help the disease and smash you in the mouth with a hammer.

Thanks CCP. Next time, use some lube.

Really though, the ship looks awesome, but as a pilot who has flown both Caldari and Amarr for years, and watched Caldari surpass Amarr in almost everything, again and again, I'm saddened by Kali.

The new Caldari ubership is great I'm sure, and I know I'll own some, who would pass up the pwnage? But for EvE's sake, why the fruit did the Caldari (the uber race don't you doubt, look at what the % of players fly) get yet ANOTHER awesome ship to troll around in? While CCP totally screwed the other 3 races. Do any of the Dev's even FLY other races then Caldari? Am I missing a CCP inside joke?

"lol watch deez nubz make der minnie pilots. 15$ cha-ching!"

I feel bad for those who can't fly Caldari and must now choose between the tier 2 BS's, or the +50mil for... some more hps.

Oh, and what is wrong with the Amarr getting a drone BS as good as the Domi? For an extra 100mil it better have the same dronespace. Hell take away 2 or 3 turret hardpoints. I don't care, gimme something to use other then LASER LASER LASER NO CAP NO REP DEAD.

Honestly, I'm sick of spending money on Amarr ships when using Caldari makes more sense. If this isn't changed in a big way, only the diehard loyal fanboys of the other races will remain playing them. The trend is killing the usefulness and fun of ther other races BS's.

Here's to Kali and CCP, may all our ships be even and meet in the halls of Valhalla.

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.30 05:40:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Thelgor

EM and Therm dmg. Okay, I understand the logic of it. Beam of light = Heat/Therm... EM dmg? Okay, I'll roll with that.


Please tell me how when you put in a radio or X-ray crystal that is light and not EM :) [PhysicsNerd] Light IS a packet of electromagnetic waves jsut like Radio or X-rays, just is that our eyes can detect them and it has different properties to others wavelengths.[/PhysicsNerd]

Originally by: Thelgor

The new Caldari ubership is great I'm sure, and I know I'll own some, who would pass up the pwnage? But for EvE's sake, why the fruit did the Caldari (the uber race don't you doubt, look at what the % of players fly) get yet ANOTHER awesome ship to troll around in? While CCP totally screwed the other 3 races. Do any of the Dev's even FLY other races then Caldari? Am I missing a CCP inside joke?

I feel bad for those who can't fly Caldari and must now choose between the tier 2 BS's, or the +50mil for... some more hps.

Honestly, I'm sick of spending money on Amarr ships when using Caldari makes more sense. If this isn't changed in a big way, only the diehard loyal fanboys of the other races will remain playing them. The trend is killing the usefulness and fun of ther other races BS's.



Ok, the Rokh is good, yes, but not "uber." I'll personally be concerned with engaging a megathron below a certain range because he'll out damage me. Furthermore it's not at the 10km range either. The Megathron starts out damaging the Rokh at 60km range. And I'm sure with your 3 years of experience you'll know that nearly all combat outside of fleet and camps occur within this range. Link to supporting graph.

Oh and I'm all for the boosting of the other races. But I don't fly other races ships anymore and so I'll leave it to their pilots to offer ideas on how to improve them.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:17:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Logan Xerxes
Please tell me how when you put in a radio or X-ray crystal that is light and not EM :) [PhysicsNerd] Light IS a packet of electromagnetic waves jsut like Radio or X-rays, just is that our eyes can detect them and it has different properties to others wavelengths.[/PhysicsNerd]


Problem is that the effect of EM waves IS heat, aka thermic damage. There really is no such thing as "EM damage". Unless you are the opinion armor can get sunburns.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:33:00 - [258]
 

Ok, first up I only fly caldari battleships (although smaller ships in other races) so this probably needs some additions from people who know what they are talking about...but I have an idea :o

Well, 3 ideas to be precise.

Caldari

Looks good but not overpowered, nice range but lower damage output. Finally we get a fleet ship. *thumbs up*

Minmatar

They have a nice fleet sniper in the tempest, so I don't really see the need for another. Minmatar are about speed and manouvering, which normally in a battleship means a blasterboat. Their electronic warfare is target painting, which is generally considered weak.

I see two options here:

1. Blaster ship

Give them a very light fast ship, enough cap to run a microwarp and a bonus to turret tracking and something else useful for a blaster.

2. Ewar ship (my preferred)

Give them an ewar ship. But target painters are limitted, so lets make a ship that target painters really help. Give them a ship with nice solid defences and lots of missile launcher high slots. The ship bonus would be 5% per level rate of fire for torpedo (But NOT cruise) and 20% per level to target painter range (and maybe effectiveness).

Now you get a really nice mission running boat, you use target painters to counter the weakness of torpedos in order to deal heavy damage but with slow moving torps. It's different from the raven in that it loses its bonus if it uses cruise (maybe armour tank it too since the mids are used for target painters). It can also be used in fleets as it can target paint out to fleet combat range and the torps work in small gang situations.

Amarr

Amarr really don't need another laser battleship, they already have two. So what are the options?

1: Drone boat.

Follow on from the Abaddon and give it a nice drone bay. Perhaps to make it a bit different from the Dominix give it 8 turret hard points, a bonus to turret energy use, a tanking bonus and no drone bonus - but a 200+m3 drone bay.

Now neither its lasers or drones are enough damage on their own, but the two go together to kick out serious damage and it can use the drones to switch damage types or get utility with enough drone space for plenty of options and spares.

2: Nos boat.

Amarr are good at high energy stuff, so lets give them a bonus for NOS. 20% per level bonus to Nos range (and maybe effectiveness) will let it nos out to 50km, combine with a 5% rate of fire on turrets and you have a very interesting and different ship that sucks energy out of you and then fires it back in laser form.

3: Ewar boat.

Amarr use tracking disrupters... These have the obvious weakness of not working on missiles or drones, but they are very effective against turrets. Give it a lot of low slots for some serious tank and then a big range (and maybe effectiveness) bonus on tracking disrupters. A nice number of high slots and a bonus for laser cap use.

Gallente

Gallente have a nice drone boat in the dominix, a nice sniper/blaster boat in the megathron. It's not as bad as with the Amarr but they could still use some versitility. Right now I only have on idea for them:

1. Ewar ship

Senser damps are actually very evil is used right, if the ship had a good range bonus to senser damps then you could use them effectively in fleet battles.




Right, just a few ideas to throw into the mix. I hope people like some of them :)

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:50:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Right, just a few ideas to throw into the mix. I hope people like some of them :)


Some small corrections:
Minmatar use autocannons, not blasters.
Surely you mean the followup of the "Arbitrator", not Abaddon.

From reading the forums I got the impression, apart fomr the shield boost bonus, the minnies are quite happy with the Maelstrom.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:52:00 - [260]
 


I would love if a total redesign would be made, but I think thats unlikely. By the way, why is there no communication with Tuxford and the others about this? I think its pretty important that the tier 3 really brings something new to every race.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 11:53:00 - [261]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 11:53:34
Originally by: Grimpak
true there, however, only caldari has ECM as a more pro-active type of Ewar that is usefull in general fleet wether long or short range, while all the other races Ewar mods are more skirmish related (damps and TD's have too short range for fleet battle usage and TP's are nigh useless except for a few, very specific situations)


The bigger range of ECM comes from the ship boni, not from the EW system. Without it multispecs have barely more range than damperners and racial ECM hasn't much of an range advantage over tracking disruptors either.

Quote:
so yes, you could say that, I see Ewar not that important in the amarr/gallente/minmatar racial concepts, wich base themselves in tankability for amarr, damage for gallente and speed for minmatar, with secondary for "lots of turrets" approach for amarr, remote firepower (droning) for gallente, and firepower flexibility for minmatar.

for caldari I see more long range firepower projection (even if missiles are sometimes slow to go long ranges, they still go long range, specially with many bonuses for missile speed and flight time that exist in caldari ships), and ECM.


It does not really work that way.

While missiles can be longrange weapons their real strength lies in midrange engagements. They are just too different to turrets to be put into a longrange drawer along with them.

Also, if tankability is an core aspect of amarr it is also one of caldari. A raven has actually a *stronger* tank than an apoc, at least if the latter is using his racial weapon (aka lasers) and not projectiles.

What you wrote is simply not how things are in the game. The current situation is more like this:

Every race has an EW frigate and cruiser.

Every race has (more or less) 2 core racial concepts. For caldari it would me missle spammer and rail sniper. For gallente droneship and blasterboat. For amarr a dps ship and a tankship (The dps/droneship miss at the t1 frigate lvl for amarr/gallente, though, but are present with the assault frigate line).

On the BS lvl caladri hs the EW & missileship, missing the rail sniper. Gallente has the drone & blaster ship, missing the EW ship. Amarr has the dps & tankship, missing the EW ship.

Minmatar is missing so far, though. That race is a bit harder to define due to it's jack of all trades nature. You could prolly call their first speciality a fast shortrange scirmisher (stabber, typhoon) and their 2nd spec a ship with a good offense/defence/speed balance (rifter/rupture/tempest).


The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:06:00 - [262]
 

It's quite simple. Give us a BS with the bonuses the Arbi has and I'll be happy \o

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:11:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain

Amarr

1: Drone boat.

Follow on from the Abaddon and give it a nice drone bay. Perhaps to make it a bit different from the Dominix give it 8 turret hard points, a bonus to turret energy use, a tanking bonus and no drone bonus - but a 200+m3 drone bay.



8 turrets with laser cap use reduction bonus and a tanking bonus is what the apoc has now. so this would just be an apoc with a biger dronebay. a real droneboat should have a bonus to drones so it can actually use them better than a normal bs.


Originally by: Zarch AlDain

2: Nos boat.

Amarr are good at high energy stuff, so lets give them a bonus for NOS. 20% per level bonus to Nos range (and maybe effectiveness) will let it nos out to 50km, combine with a 5% rate of fire on turrets and you have a very interesting and different ship that sucks energy out of you and then fires it back in laser form.



50km nos range would be too much for a bs i think. at least before nos gets nerfed. depending on how that works out a large nos-range bonus could be ok again.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:22:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
more stuff



while I see your point, I do not belive that the other 3 races have Ewar as one of their core aspects, as much as caldari anyways.

Caldari are high-tech, shield tanking, space-superiority ships that use high-tech forms of Ewar to gain the upper hand, or at least I see them as that, while gallente are more of a "up close and personal" style of war where putting the maximum "in your face" firepower prevails.
Amarr, supposedly and in my opinion, are the fleetmasters however that cover their inherent drawbacks (inflexibility and low-tech gear), with a "more guns and armor" approach together with number superiority and firepower deliverance in the middle to long ranges, where their lasers, supposedly, reign supreme. The minmatar concept was based in counter the amarrian concept of big fleets, by employing quick, fast, flexible ships specialized in "hit-and-run" tactics to wreck havoc in the enemy lines, by employing either a more sustained, altho short range firepower (autocannons), or hi-damage, low sustainability long range firepower (artilleries).

True that this is not exactly what we see today in each race, however these core concepts are present in each races' ship lineup.

So yes, in sum, while Ewar, more specifically ECM, are one of the mainstray forms of war of the caldari, the other races are more of hi-tech firepower (blasters + droning), or sieging capabilities (pure firepower + staying power in form of armor), or guerrilla hit-and-run tactics (speed + versatility), which puts Ewar in second, or even third plan.



At least this is my point of view, and the way I see each race concept of how wage war.

Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:24:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Saboro Kai
And there's part of the problem . These new ships arent meant only for PVP or 0.0 space warfare. They are meant for everyone to use in any system sec type, missions , ratting, plex & war . You had info on these ships months back, now you want a changeugh


I suggest you look back said "months back" on the ships and modules forum where you will find any number of posts saying the Abaddon concept is fundamentally flawed and PLEASE can the Amarr have a BS which is not just a differently-broken gunship.

Of course the irony is you will also see any number of posts saying "Don't ask for a change until you've seen what it's like on the test server"... Neutral

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:43:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 12:45:11
Originally by: Grimpak
So yes, in sum, while Ewar, more specifically ECM, are one of the mainstray forms of war of the caldari, the other races are more of hi-tech firepower (blasters + droning), or sieging capabilities (pure firepower + staying power in form of armor), or guerrilla hit-and-run tactics (speed + versatility), which puts Ewar in second, or even third plan.


*sigh* Yes, and likewise the caldari lineup put longrange rail sniping have heavy shield tanking (which is just as good as amarr tanking) as 3rd priority.

Until now, till the 3rd tier BS.

As said, you cannot put missles and rails in the same pot, just as you cannot put drones and blasters in the same pot.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.30 12:52:00 - [267]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 30/10/2006 12:52:50
Originally by: Aramendel
As said, you cannot put missles and rails in the same pot, just as you cannot put drones and blasters in the same pot.


in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.


Anyways, I believe that Tuxford and co. don't want to make an Ewar BS out of the new tier simply because they want to follow each race core concept, of which Ewar, even if each race has a "favorite" form, is not part of their core concept.

776677
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:24:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: 776677 on 30/10/2006 13:24:44
All arbitratots big fans... MOVE YOU HANDS AWAY FROM ABBADON! Use Curse and Pilgrim be a happy! Do not tough Amarrian fierpower, this is GUNBOAT!

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:44:00 - [269]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 30/10/2006 13:45:42
Originally by: Grimpak
in the drones + blasters thing, one thing we can be sure that both are excellent short range weapons, which obeys to the gallente's racial concept.


Yes, but so are missle & rails.

The point is, either you could drones & blasters as one single racial concepts if you count missles & rails as one single concept or you count drones & blasters as 2 different concepts if you count rails & missiles as 2 different concepts.

The problem is that whatever version you choose, caldari have then 1 specialisation more than gallente. It's either "missles & rails & ECM vs drones & blasters" or "longrange weapons & ECM vs shortrange weapons".

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.30 13:44:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: 776677
All arbitratots big fans... MOVE YOU HANDS AWAY FROM ABBADON! Use Curse and Pilgrim be a happy! Do not tough Amarrian fierpower, this is GUNBOAT!

Yea, a gunboat just like the other two. Neutral
Please go, grab your "Abbadon" and leave. Oh and.. try an Armageddon one day. I hear it's a nice gunboat.


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