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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
Posted - 2006.10.28 18:17:00 - [211]
 

CCP have made these ships the way they are for a reason.

Live with it.

miss sixtty
Gallente
FemiCorp
Posted - 2006.10.28 18:24:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: SpMind
H
Abbadon - expensive fleet dmgdealer\soloplatform. All what we need - just incrace capcitor recharge and/or cap capcity.
Special Ability: 5% Large Energy turret rate of fire per level. And 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level



No sane amount of cap increase/recharge will make any diffirence with Abbadon problems. I mean, out of cap in 1 min or in 1m 15 sec - doesnt matter that much. And there is no way CCP will give it 2x cap. So its better to completely change it - and the idea with NOS bonus sounds very good. Something like 20% range and 10% amount per lvl with useall ROF bonus sounds about right.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.28 20:31:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: Imiarr Timshae
CCP have made these ships the way they are for a reason.

Live with it.


CCP have asked for feedback on them for a reason.

Live with it.

Dont know much about the other races so I'll leave the discussions on those who know what theyre talking about.

But can we please, pretty please, with sugar on top, make the Hype a better more usable blaster ship than the mega is already, or change its role completely, one of the two.

Atm the only place I can see the Hype being a better option to fly over the mega is for soloing.

In a gang neutronthron is great because most targets are already within neutron ranges, so you can instantly start doing damage, where as the Hype is going to be using electrons most likely which means very low optimal, this means youre going to have to travel to each target before opening fire, and once in range still put out less DPS than a neutronthron.

The ship is just competing with an existing ship trying to do the exact same role, but isnt any better at it than the current ship.

Whats the point?

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.10.28 20:39:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.


because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.

at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.


You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.

Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.


SpMind
Posted - 2006.10.28 20:49:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: SpMind on 28/10/2006 20:53:18
Quote:
No sane amount of cap increase/recharge will make any diffirence with Abbadon problems. I mean, out of cap in 1 min or in 1m 15 sec - doesnt matter that much. And there is no way CCP will give it 2x cap. So its better to completely change it - and the idea with NOS bonus sounds very good. Something like 20% range and 10% amount per lvl with useall ROF bonus sounds about right.


If Abbadon recive DMG not ROF + NOS bonus... sounds good. Maybe this is a way to fix this BS.

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.28 21:00:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Illuminaty on 28/10/2006 21:03:08
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.


because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.

at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.


You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.

Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.




Right. Because the whole Caldari Blackbird + Scorpion line is a total fiasco.

People fly both, and they would scream bloody murder if CCP tried to remove one or the other.

edit: You should also note that the one tier 3 BS that everyone seems to like is the Rokh, which funnily enough is the only tier 3 battleship that did follow the frig->cruiser->battlecruiser->battleship progression.

Romulus Maximus
Reikoku
KenZoku
Posted - 2006.10.28 21:46:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Forsch
YES to a big arbitrator.

Slots: 7/6/6, 4 turret, 3 launcher
Drone bay: 175m or 200m (5 heavy, 5 medium and optional 5 light)

Bonus1: 10% per level for tracking disruptor optimal range
Bonus2a: 10% drone hp/dmg per level
Bonus2b: 5% armor resists per level

(This means either 2a or 2b. I'd prefer 2a but if that comes to close to the domi, 2b would be fine, too.)

Grid and cpu accordingly so stuff fits on it.
Good armor, good sensor strength, long targeting range. Slow, big sig radius.

Sooo yea.. when could we get this? Smile


Yep..sounds way better than what it is now tbh. The Pilgrim/Curse provided such an awesome role for Amarr tbh. The new BS should do something similar. Not just be similar to what we have, and fail to actually better it.

Make it a big Arbi ftw. 10% drone dmg per lvl and 5% armour resists. The cap bonus could be dropped, as no doubt it would be running a few nos.
Please dont release it as it is, even IF u fix the huge problems. Ull only make it a working copy of what we have. Yes it has slight diferances, but nothing exciting or worht all the time and effort uve put into it. The Rokh is all new, this just sucks.
Fix it pretty plz ! <3

Franga
NQX Innovations
Posted - 2006.10.28 22:27:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.


because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.

at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.


You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.

Oversized EW support boats don't help IMO.




I'm fairly sure someone has said this before - but being a less expensive version of a larger ship is a role. One thing alot of people forget (particularly older players - not an insult, just an observation) is that not everyone is able to lose a 50-60mil ship with 20mil worth of fittings and not blink. The Blackbird is a great low-cost version of the Scorpion.

Scorpion = 60mil price, 20mil outfitting, 20mil insurance ... 100mil investment.
Blackbird = 3mil price, 6mil outfitting, 1mil insurance ... 10mil investment.

Yes, the Blackbird is made out of construction paper - I'm aware. But it still fills a role and has slighty different bonuses. Then of course you have the Rook and Falcon - again, not something you're average 3-6month player is going to be able to fly or afford to lose. Hence - the Blackbird.

Also - not just the younger player but the casual player. You know the ones - been in the game for 2 years and then tell you they only have 6-8mil SP. Rolling Eyes It's part of the customer service keeping these ships around. Wink

Deckert
Caldari
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2006.10.29 01:09:00 - [219]
 

now all we need are ingame pictures of the tier battleship :)

Johnny Bravo
Gallente
Posted - 2006.10.29 01:23:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: SpMind
Edited by: SpMind on 28/10/2006 20:53:18

If Abbadon recive DMG not ROF + NOS bonus... sounds good. Maybe this is a way to fix this BS.


No way. 1st, the alpha will be as high as on Tempest - no good. Second, 25% less cap (and 7% less potential DPS) will NOT change Abaddon problems that much. It will become the exact replica of Armageddon only 3x as expencive. Thought i agree what i would choose that if nothing else made - but its much better to change the ship completely like NOS bonus and large drone bay.

Necronus
Amarr
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2006.10.29 01:34:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: Necronus on 29/10/2006 01:40:23
Edited by: Necronus on 29/10/2006 01:35:52
Abaddon? Huh?

My opinion will not be new,exclusive or different from those above this thread.So i'll just write down my erotic fantasies about third amarrian Bs as everybody did :D

In the way it is now - it's almost useless.
Here are some points:

Farming/Missions :
Apoc is better,cause if you want to farm on a Abaddon you need to waste a more of slots on a capacitor boost that its counterparts (without any capa boost there is no chance in just shooting megapulse/tachybeam you'll loose all the cap in couple of minutes,and using of armor repairer seems like a insane idea) and even then you will have weaker dmg/tank then Apoc/Arma.

Dmg Dealing:
Arma still stays the best damage dealer due to 5 heavy drones. And its 8 low slots seem a bit more attractive,then a 5% armor ressist.
Tanking:
Yep,Abaddon can tank better then Apoc or Arma,but who needs tanking if you cant do anything besides it? Maybe it can be useful in Complexes or with Ac setup (but thats another story going below).

PvP:
The only way to use Abaddon in PvP in its current state is Fitting Autocannons and a nice tank(dont seem to be a True Amarrian way for me,kinda Gimp Prophecy mk2),or putting some low-grade guns and capacitor mods or booster(omg 12 spare boosters for such a nasty beast? It can barely last a fight due to armor increase in Kali) but that way Arma is doing those things just better and cheaper.(as i'm concerned those tier 3 bs will cost much more then tier 1)

Conclusion:
So what do we have?
A really expensive nice-looking 3d model that can be a brand new super uber exciting addition to you're mining operation. It will look so cool on that asteroid belt with all those yellow lasers(anyone tested if it has enought capacitor to use mining lasers and tank belts? (: )

Solutions that were posted above the thread:

1. Leave everything as it is,just increase the capacitor recharge rate or something like that.

Seems nice only for people who thinks that everyone fits amarr ships with lasers.
Yeah it will make abaddon more useful with lasers,it will have enought capacitor to tank and kill, BUT if you fit projectiles it will be overpowered tank that has enought damage to deal with almost anybody. Don't seem to balanced to me. Just a dead end idea, imho.The only way to fix Abaddon Capacitor is to give him reduction in laser capacitor needs like all amarr ships do.Having this bonus as an extra will cause another disbalance,and giving it in exchange of one of its 2 bonuses will cause this ship to be similar to another amarr bs.


2. Big-Arbitrator. (I really like this idea just only because of the name,cause arbi is my most favourite ship.)
But as far as i'm concerned CCP will not make critical changes in that ship.
Abaddon model has 8 visual hardpoints in its 3d model. So they will have to leave it or change the model (i dont think it is likely to happen).
Battleship class drone-carrier with 8 turret hardpoints can be a really overpowered thing even without a bonus to a guns.
I think this is going to happen only if it will have a really nice penalty.(reduced grid so it cant fit 8 large guns without mods, no bonus on guns, reduced slots )

I think this idea has more chances to becоme a balanced one(with some stat experiments you will be able to make a nice ship,and gallente domi fans can hang themselfs on their underwear,cause it will never have same dronbay as domi anyway,that means no spare heavy waves,which will cause it to control drones with more concentration and attention,anyway Why shouldnt it be better then Domi? Domi is damn tier 1 bs (: ), but less chances to happen.
I dont want to introduce my variations of stats on Abaddonix :D cause i'm really not so optimistic to see that happen.






Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.29 02:56:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.



maybe you should have read my big arbi suggestion then before you decided to comment.
in actual fact it does not have the same ewar bonus that the arbitrator has and fills a different role.

the arbi cruiser gets 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level.
it is very good for mid to close range use against turret ships. greatly reduces optimal and tracking. stick two of them on another cruiser in shortrange combat and try to gain some transversal and it will have trouble hitting you. can not reach snipers.

the bs sized arbi would instead get 20% optimal range for tds which would work like the scorpions 20% ecm optimal range and allow you to use the module against long range ships. the effect isnt as good as it is on the arbi but reaches further out. at long range you will mostly benefit from the reduced optimal range. forcing the enemy to change ammo or get in closer for good hits. at closer ranges the tracking reduction will also be of some help though not as good as on the arbi.


also: a bigger class ship with the same role does not make small class ships obsolete.
if that was the case the following ships would be useless:
amarr: omen, maller
caldari: caracal, moa, blackbird
gallente: thorax, vexor
minmatar: rupture, stabber
(just looking at t1 crusiers here but there are a lot more that fit your idea of obsolete)


Soratah
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.29 05:03:00 - [223]
 

No word yet I see...

What are the odds that these ships will have the exact same bonii when they enter Tranq server?

Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
Mafia Redux
Posted - 2006.10.29 06:57:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Rahjadan Shardur on 29/10/2006 07:03:24
Edited by: Rahjadan Shardur on 29/10/2006 07:02:29
My 0.02ISK as a Minmatar to the BS ballance:
We minmatar are lacking behind in the BS field!

The Typhoon is too wide spread to be realy effective (except maybe as a Nanophoon, but that is the most expensive BS setup i know, for it demands faction stuff, and still doesn't use the gun Bonus). To make the Typhoon a loveabel ship give it one more launcher point and loose the gun bonus for a target painter bonus. It would now be a small Raven with a bit less damage and a bit less tank.

The Tempest is outdamaged by almost all other BS and needs one more turret to compete with the Megathron or the Armageddon. It would still lack in tank but there is no need to change that. (If you fear that a 7 gun Tempest would be overpowerd as a Sniper reduce the target range so it will not be abel to snipe. An other solution would be to give Minmatar the opportunity to cange damage types with t2 ammo as the can with t1 ammo.)

After these changes you would now be at the point the Gellante are today:
The question "For what do we need another BS?"

The answer however is much easyer to find, for there would still not be a good Missionship in the Matari arsenal. For that the Mealstrom can be the suitabel ship, just give it one more Medslot to be a big Cyclone or do whatever you think would make it an alternative to the Raven in missions so that you do not have to train up Caldari for having an efficent Level-4-Mission-Ship. (And if you did the changes above the Mealstrom also needs to be the new Snipership)

Soratah
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.29 07:24:00 - [225]
 

Edited by: Soratah on 29/10/2006 07:42:01
I've always liked the look of the Typhoon. To be honest I've pictured the gaping maw of that ship to disgorge drones.

It's definitely a Jack-of-all-Trades ship though. Would be fun to add a +5% bonus to (choose from list when first piloting the phoon) so it could really do anything.

Drones obviously add to the dps of this ship so maybe a bonus centered around drones would also do.

Tempest in AC setup is a VERY high DPS ship, and it's much better (if not equal to the megathron in this regard). Close range combat is not the Amarrian way of life and their Battleships will always be outperformed in close range engagements.

The Rokh may have issues with range during PvP combat, but it's more of a Sniper than any Amarrian ship will be so it balances it. As well as the fact it'll be using sensible guns and not lasers

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.29 08:09:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 29/10/2006 08:10:57
i agree with phoon problems for its split weapon setup (as said many times) now even more as split approach will be even more inefficent due to rigs...

1 rig to boost 4 weapons with a single damage bonus vs ships that boost 7-8 weapons with just 1 rig...

i will like to see it turned into a "real bomber" with 6 missiles slots and the second ship bonus turned as a speed one...


for the tempest i don't think it will never get a 7th turret... 7 turrets with double bonuses means that it will outdamage the mael a thing that quite problematic looking at how t3 BS are designed.

instead i still hope proj will get some revamp to make them more viable...


edit...
AC pest with very high dps? probably due to crap dps from proj and inability to use 5 heavy drones it is the lowest dps close range boat Crying or Very sad

SpMind
Posted - 2006.10.29 08:11:00 - [227]
 

Why all always say "if you fit projectiles @ abbadon or apoc". Why you did not say same about mega or tempest? why?
Maybe lasers need a bit rethinkink?

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.29 08:20:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: SpMind
Why all always say "if you fit projectiles @ abbadon or apoc". Why you did not say same about mega or tempest? why?
Maybe lasers need a bit rethinkink?


even if i think that lasers need some love i don't think is a right comparsion...

amarr ships have a great benefit from ACs in tank compartment as with proj they can use all their cap to build massive tank... they chose a crap dps for better tanking...

a minnie ship instead doesn't get same benefit from laser... first because cap usage (it have not the cap reducion) and second the benefit in dps will be not that great to justify the cap problems...

more or less proj + 1 rof (standard minnie bonus) is similar to laser whitout bonus dpswise so you see the ship will just use cap for no real benefit

it can be a bit different for 425mm... for the tempest it was not a good option as 1 1400mm + 2 bonus is clearly superior damagewise to a 425mm whitout any bonus, but for the mael it can be different.

1 1400mm + rof bonus is not that higher than a 425mm whitout bonus, and the 425mm have better range, tracking and fitting.

still probably will not be that common as for sure someone who can use 425mm T2 will spend a month training the rokh that outclasses the mael for both range and tanking.

topman324
Ascent of Ages
Sc0rched Earth
Posted - 2006.10.29 09:16:00 - [229]
 

I have problems getting onto SiSi so I am unable to check out the t3 BS myself, if any of you have had got chance to get on, can you list the skill requirements for the t3 BS. I have Gallente BS V already, I just need to know if I need to train anything else before the Hyperion comes out. Thanks alot :)

Topperz


Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.10.29 09:29:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
You're missing my point. If you just make a Battleship-sized version of the EW cruiser, it makes the cruiser obsolete (more slots, more HP's e.t.c). There needs to remain role differences between the ship classes to ensure diversity.



maybe you should have read my big arbi suggestion then before you decided to comment.
in actual fact it does not have the same ewar bonus that the arbitrator has and fills a different role.

the arbi cruiser gets 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level.
it is very good for mid to close range use against turret ships. greatly reduces optimal and tracking. stick two of them on another cruiser in shortrange combat and try to gain some transversal and it will have trouble hitting you. can not reach snipers.

the bs sized arbi would instead get 20% optimal range for tds which would work like the scorpions 20% ecm optimal range and allow you to use the module against long range ships. the effect isnt as good as it is on the arbi but reaches further out. at long range you will mostly benefit from the reduced optimal range. forcing the enemy to change ammo or get in closer for good hits. at closer ranges the tracking reduction will also be of some help though not as good as on the arbi.


also: a bigger class ship with the same role does not make small class ships obsolete.
if that was the case the following ships would be useless:
amarr: omen, maller
caldari: caracal, moa, blackbird
gallente: thorax, vexor
minmatar: rupture, stabber
(just looking at t1 crusiers here but there are a lot more that fit your idea of obsolete)


Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around. Wink

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.29 09:50:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around. Wink

You mean.. like the Scorpion? Mad

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.10.29 09:53:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around. Wink

You mean.. like the Scorpion? Mad
The Scorpions old 10% shield HP's per level would have actually be useful in kali Wink

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.29 10:33:00 - [233]
 

Could anyone explain to me why only Caldari should be allowed to have diversity? It would be a good thing (tm) if EVERY race would get a ship that fills a role that is currently not covered IMVHO.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.29 10:46:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Tharrn
Could anyone explain to me why only Caldari should be allowed to have diversity? It would be a good thing (tm) if EVERY race would get a ship that fills a role that is currently not covered IMVHO.



because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.29 11:13:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 29/10/2006 11:13:28
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Well, perhaps I'm just being dogmatic but as I see it; a Battleship is a ship of the line, lots of firepower, lots of HP's/tank, something to be supported by other ships and not the other way around. Wink


this works fine if your caldari. others cant reach long range battleships with their ewar/support cruisers.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.29 15:13:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak
because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).


Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.

Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.29 16:17:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 29/10/2006 15:13:59
Originally by: Grimpak
because, tbh, it's the only race where we can see that there is a gap in the battleships lineup, in terms of the racial type of warfare (railgun snipers).


Well, the reason for this is because they have an EW BS, while all other races miss one. So I would say the gap for the other races is just as present.

Unless, of cource, caldari are supposed to have 3 specialisations (ecm, missles & rails) and other races only 2.


Well if we wanted to make things happen like they should, the abaddon would actually be a TD user. The dominix would have a damp bonus and the Maelstrom would have a Target Painting bonus "like a range + effectiveness" bonus. But... alas people would complain and tbh target painters just suck as an ewar system as-is. Maybe if they were a resistance breaker effect to TPs like in that one good thread I'd support it.

Killthemall420
Posted - 2006.10.29 16:54:00 - [238]
 

Is it just me or does the Hyperion just suck. If its not going to have its own role or its own purpose wtf is the point. Thx for the big build up and let down thats always funVery Happy

P.S. You wanted feed back, constructive or not thier it is.Twisted Evil

Saboro Kai
Posted - 2006.10.29 18:26:00 - [239]
 

Fix the cap problem with the Abaddon and it should be fine. The Amarr race doesnt need "another" mining ship,thats what a giant Arbi will end up being Rolling Eyes.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.29 18:59:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi
...But... alas people would complain and tbh target painters just suck as an ewar system as-is. Maybe if they were a resistance breaker effect to TPs like in that one good thread I'd support it.


I wouldn't even classify target painters as EW. It needs about as much an utility boost as (tranquility) ECM needs an utility nerf.

Personally I would just remove the classification of TP as EW and give the minnie ships the gallente warp disruptor range bonus instead, making them the ultimate "catch you!" ship. Might be a bit too strong then though. And then there would be the question what to give the gallente recons.


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