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Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.10.28 07:35:00 - [181]
 

why hyperion got the lowest(i think) pg? we are the ones who needs to fit mwd right? and blasters needs much pg and that ship has 6 lows so fitting rcu IIs will suck.HEY! i dont want to fit little electrons ok?...6 lows man!...any ideas?

im alright wih the drone bay even you can drop it to 75 m3 but OD something bout pg and agility!!!!1111

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.28 07:48:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10
The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.


What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)

*edit*

Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.


HeyLookHere
Posted - 2006.10.28 08:12:00 - [183]
 

Quote:
Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).


I completely agree that amarr need something different that the usuall laser-based ships, but i also feel that 'Big Arbitrator' in it's current proposed design would be a mistake. From what most people are saying they want it to be a ship with drone hp bonus instead of damage so Dominix still remains a top drone boat - but why on earth would you want a weaker version of Dominix that costs almost 3 times as much?? Ok so it's not an exact copy of a diminix but instead a ship where drones are only a part of it's design and the second part is EW - but imo a tracking disruptor bonus doesnt make much difference - jammers are still better even after the patch...Compared to Rokh it wouldnt be worth the money.

Abaddon as it is right now can be a great sniper or close up fighter( as the damage graphs already show )if it had the cap to actually fire it's guns for longer than 1-2mins...I dont see a clear solution to this problem - devs can increase cap size or recharge rate, that would certainly help but for some reason i doubt they would do that because it would also affect repairers and make it an overpowered tanker with it's 5% resistance bonus. .If they did that people would just use it as a replacement for apoc and use projectiles to get rid of laser cap problems...( thats a waste of rof bonus yes but the added tanking and 8 turrets would make up for that - with increased hp of ships the built in resistance bonus is very noticeable pluss with less grid usage you can now fit projectile damage rigs, and furthermore when ships are used like that it just shows how broken they really are) Decreasing cap use on all lasers would require a redesign of the whole amarrian ship line and bonuses and i wont even get into that right now...Changing one of the bonuses could help but what would the changed bonus be?? 10% Optimal and cap use per level is an interesting idea but it would be a whole different ship and i cant really comment on that... Balancing it out so that the other 2 battleships dont become useless is also an issue...

I'd personally very much like a t1 Bhaalgorn with 5 mids , Nos/Neut and Damage/Rof Bonus and 5-6guns - it' wont deal as much damage as a geddon and wouldnt be such an uber tank as apoc, but would be somewhat unique ( not many players have isk for faction ships but this way we'll have a ship with such bonuses readily avaiable) But sadly there is a problem - if there are any nos system changes in the future the ship may become less usefull. Still i'd chose this idea over the overpriced ( and gimped) drone boat.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.28 08:21:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Nifel
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10
The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.


What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)

*edit*

Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.




1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.28 08:54:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Originally by: Nifel
Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 07:47:59
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10
The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.


What's your reasoning behind this (bolded part)?:)

*edit*

Oh... and won't be able to reply until monday.




1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.


Numbers to support this? (Let's say I won't be able to reply on Sunday.... might still be around when you reply to this. Thought you were more EU TZ).

I did some myself and there's about a 10 hp/s difference at the most (for useful setups at least). Nothing earth-shattering, I just don't see how it'd be overpowered.

For example: XL Shield Booster II + natural shield recharge rate with nothing added to it gives you roughly 158.4 hp/s. XL Shield Booster II + the 7.5 Shield boost bonus gives you 165 hp/s. Given that both of them uses the same amount of energy and the hp boost gives less hp/s I don't see why it shouldn't stay at 1500.

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.28 09:10:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 27/10/2006 18:44:10
@ Maelstrom: Kaylana and Grim have it right on target. Give it +dam and +10% shield hp per level to tweak it so it is balanced and interesting.

The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.

ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000

While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.

Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.

Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.

Nyxus



i hope they hear you. I couldnt say it better

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.28 09:35:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.


I think you need to back this up with numbers instead of jedi powers. Im not very good at math, but if someone here is, I would like a comparison of the effective tanking of the Rohks resistance bonus compared to the extra shield hp suggested for the Maelstrom.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:05:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Nifel on 28/10/2006 10:06:51
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Kaylana Syi

1500 with 50% extra hp could make it a tad overpowered in teh area of a passive tank. The rohk is at 2000 and the maelstrom is at 1500. I say bump it to 1750 so there is more balance.


I think you need to back this up with numbers instead of jedi powers. Im not very good at math, but if someone here is, I would like a comparison of the effective tanking of the Rohks resistance bonus compared to the extra shield hp suggested for the Maelstrom.



Easy example:

10000 shield.

actual shields:
hp: 15000
res: 10000

effective shields for em damage:
hp: 15000
res: 13333

time to fully repair shields with 1x XL Shield Booster II including passive shield recharge at maximum (it never is at fully maximum all the time but I don't have the time to do more intricate math here):
hp: 104 sec (1500 recharge rate)
res: 75.75 sec (2000 recharge rate)

Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:19:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Nebrin
Abbadon needs to have a cap recharge rate bonus, as it is the 8 lasers are going to drain that faster than a fat kid with a slurpy.


and which bonus is it supposed to give up for that?

here are your options:
a) laser rof & cap recharge
-> if the cap recharger bonus is good enough to compensate for the lasers what you get here is a more clearly defined bettter-geddon.

b) cap recharge & 5% armor resists
-> and here you get a more clearly visible better-apoc.


also: cap recharge default bonus is 5% iirc. at lvl4 thats 20% -> the same as one cpr. fitting just one cpr is not gonna save the ship even if its the faction version with 25%.


Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:27:00 - [190]
 

Abbadon

Quite a few people have been asking for a drone boat, but how does a teir 3 drone boat not be stronger than the Dominix?

8 high slots, 8 turret hard points.
15% per level reduction in laser cap use.
200m3 drone bay
20% per level increase in drone armour hp


Here you need to use the guns and drones in combination to do the damage. You get really good cap reduction on lasers so you can fit 8 lasers and fire them along with the drones, but with no damage bonus on either you do need to use them in combination to get the job done.

You have enough drone bay to fit a few replacement drones and your drones themselves are pretty hard to kill.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:32:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: HeyLookHere
but imo a tracking disruptor bonus doesnt make much difference - jammers are still better even after the patch



tracking disruptors actually work quiet well and if you give it a 20% td optimal range bonus (like the scorp gets for ecm) you can reach up to snipe range and reduce the optimal of those ships. they will then have to either come closer or try and jam/td you.

assuming you have 5 medslots you will propably need 2x sensorboosters to lock those longrange enemies. that would leave 3 slots for td allowing you to reduce the optimal of 3 ships sitting far off or stack them on one ship for a greater reduce at closer range. on short range the effect would be a good as an the td from an arbi but seeing how battleships dont start out with the best tracking anyway i think it would still be good enough. sounds like a pretty decent ewar-bonus to me tbh.

of course if you fit an eccm or a speedmod yourself this could be only 2x td max.

regarding the drone bonus: an arbi relies on drones for the majority of its damage. a bs sized version should too to keep it seperate from the domi.


also: a nos/neut+ lasers ship could also be nice as it would also provide something new for us.


Mr Bright
Shade.
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:45:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: Mr Bright on 28/10/2006 10:58:40
I got one note on the Maelstrom, think i have noted it in another thread as well - but its an interesting observation so I think is okay to repeat it here.

The difference in fleet ops between a Maelstrom and a Tempest is very simple - low skills the Maelstrom wins on alpha/DPS, but pays for it with higer cost and lower mobility (agility/speed). But a high skilled player (BS5) would be better of in a Tempest, the damage/alpha strike difference is minimal - but the mobility is better and the cost is lower.

All it sums up to is this, for fleet ops high skilled players with a Tempest. Quick movement, better agility, lower cost - why would anyone with BS5 pick a fat slow expensive Maelstrom instead?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.28 10:49:00 - [193]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/10/2006 10:50:42
Originally by: Nifel

Overall the res bonus will always give higher res as well as better balanced overall resists than the hp bonus. The res bonus also gives more effective use of the xl shield booster ii. The hp bonus on the other hand will have a much larger buffer with a nice passive shield recharge that doesn't require cap, but nothing that will rival an active tank unless specifically fitted to do so in which case it won't have an active tank anyway.


Good post. Makes me want that resistance bonus for the Maelstrom tbh, because its actually also much more versatile than the shield hp bonus imo. CCP keep saying versatile for minmatar, but doesnt really back it up with bonuses. A shield resist bonus is versatile, a shield boost or hp bonus is not, because it locks the ships tanking into one option only to take advantage of it.

Its very bad to be competing with caldari for bonuses...

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.28 11:10:00 - [194]
 

I doubt either is going to happen, they seem to have decided that caldari get shield resist/hp or nothing, matari get shield boost, amarr get armor resist and gallente rep boost. *shrug*

Soratah
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:00:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
Abbadon

Quite a few people have been asking for a drone boat, but how does a teir 3 drone boat not be stronger than the Dominix?

8 high slots, 8 turret hard points.
15% per level reduction in laser cap use.
200m3 drone bay
20% per level increase in drone armour hp


Here you need to use the guns and drones in combination to do the damage. You get really good cap reduction on lasers so you can fit 8 lasers and fire them along with the drones, but with no damage bonus on either you do need to use them in combination to get the job done.

You have enough drone bay to fit a few replacement drones and your drones themselves are pretty hard to kill.



That sounds like the best idea considering it's low turret dps then most people will be fitting it pretty much like the Apoc for the tanking.

To be honest though, with Amarr BS5 then it'll have the same tanking resists as a navy issue apoc. We'll just fit heavy nos making it the same as the Nos-Domi..

However, it's current incarnation is quite frankly ****-poor. Tracking disruption and drones are still the best way to go. If you look at the module you can see huge bay doors on the bow of the ship.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:10:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Soratah
However, it's current incarnation is quite frankly ****-poor. Tracking disruption and drones are still the best way to go. If you look at the module you can see huge bay doors on the bow of the ship.

When I first saw the concept art, I was sure it had to be a drone boat. Sadly I was wrong. Sad

sherbert lemon
Amarr
Intersteller Inventions Inc
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:19:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: sherbert lemon on 28/10/2006 12:20:47
Edited by: sherbert lemon on 28/10/2006 12:20:26
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Originally by: Ithildin
As long as the Abaddon doesn't get a drone damage bonus, it can have as much drone bay as it pleases - it's not going to threaten the Dominix' position as top drone using battleship.


What about giving a really, i mean really good bonus to drone hitpoints (kinda fits with amarr. And giving it a larger drone bay the the Domi.

Although most people wouild probably prefer the hitpoint bonus.



/signed x1000

i think that is a splendid idea, ammarr desperately needs some diversity, i like lasers myself, but for those poor ammarrians who dont like lasers, what can they do, everyship is a laserboat, we have already got drones from the arbitrator, so its not a drastic change to amarr lifestyle, if we had a drone boat with bonuses to drone hitpoints which is very amarr-like and a fat drone bay but still less than the domi, we will have a gank BS a tank BS and a drone BS with less turret damage so one less high (and if over powered take a lowslot out).

also the cap issue may need a look at, CCP.

if these changes are applied i would think no amarrians can complain about the BS, just about being amarr, and it would maybe put us back in the game of eve as contenders, which is what the backstory wants!

----

Sherbo - inexperienced amarr pilot loving the gameWink




before u flame me this is not an alt

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:25:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: Forsch on 28/10/2006 12:25:18

I don't know.. a drone hp bonus doesn't sound too good to me. Would only help if the drones actually get shot at, which doesn't happen that often. Otherwise normal drones (without bonus) would be just as good.
Usually drone boats have a drone hp + dmg bonus.
But as I said, if that comes too close to the Dominix, why not give it:
Bonus1 10% tracking disruptor optimal
Bonus2 5% armor resist per level

A big drone bay but without bonus, kinda like the Typhoon. While being good at tanking and EW (tracking disruption in fleet fights).

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:37:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Forsch

I don't know.. a drone hp bonus doesn't sound too good to me. Would only help if the drones actually get shot at, which doesn't happen that often. Otherwise normal drones (without bonus) would be just as good. Usually drone boats have a drone hp + dmg bonus.



pretty much spot on. i've been using the arbi a alot and i think only 1 time someone tried to shoot at the drones. ah and there was one time over a year ago where i lost drones to a smartbomb.


Originally by: Forsch

But as I said, if that comes too close to the Dominix, why not give it:
Bonus1 10% tracking disruptor optimal
Bonus2 5% armor resist per level

A big drone bay but without bonus, kinda like the Typhoon. While being good at tanking and EW (tracking disruption in fleet fights).


this would be nice as well. however i think it needs 20% range like the scorp to actually reach long range battleships. would also need a fair share of launchers to compensate for the lack of laser cap use reduction.


sherbert lemon
Amarr
Intersteller Inventions Inc
Posted - 2006.10.28 12:44:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: sherbert lemon on 28/10/2006 12:49:01
aha, i see what you mean, i personally am not a drone pilot, but i just thought it sounded good, was pleasing to the amarrians, and wasnt overpowering, but since you have proposed the tracking and EW bonus, i think i have come to a conclusion in my mind, i wont state it, just scroll up and read the two posts before this


edit- i thought harder about this and looked up a few ships ugh and saw we dont have a uptodate in technology ship, since this is a New ship without a background of being in the empire for years, it seems feasable to use new technology like E war so we are not stuck in the dark ages


o/


Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2006.10.28 13:22:00 - [201]
 

Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.

Aloysius Knight
Minmatar
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.28 13:29:00 - [202]
 

8x t2 650mm

Named MWD
T2 XL sheild booster
2 named invura fields
20km scrabler
heavy cap injecter


3 T2 gyro
DC
T2 pdu

drone bay with web drones



hmmmm so how about making it like the cyclone and giving it 1 more mid Twisted Evil

Dristra
Amarr
Idle Haven
Posted - 2006.10.28 14:51:00 - [203]
 

ABADDON for no:1 drone boat!

it will silence all Amarr whiners forever too...

give it nos and drone bonus, just kidding, drones and armour will do fine, or even cap reduction and drones, as long as it has the drone bonus.

FosterK
Narnia Sex Tours
Posted - 2006.10.28 15:34:00 - [204]
 

Can someone please remind me what the skill bonuses are for the Rokh?

Can't get on Sisi, and need to do some range calculations for possible setups... Infact, has anyone got a screenie of all the stats? Ta.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.10.28 15:40:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: FosterK
Can someone please remind me what the skill bonuses are for the Rokh?

Can't get on Sisi, and need to do some range calculations for possible setups... Infact, has anyone got a screenie of all the stats? Ta.


per level:
10% optimal
5% to shield resistances

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.10.28 16:25:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Kai Lae on 28/10/2006 16:27:08
Originally by: Aloysius Knight

8x t2 650mm
Named MWD
T2 XL sheild booster
2 named invura fields
20km scrabler
heavy cap injecter

3 T2 gyro
DC
T2 pdu

drone bay with web drones

hmmmm so how about making it like the cyclone and giving it 1 more mid Twisted Evil


The problem that seems to currently exist with the malestrom is that the shield boost bonus is not viable for fleet combat, and is only useful for smaller scale engagements. This limits the flexibility of the ship. The solution to this is IMO what Aloysius has stated above, to give the ship a 7th midslot. The problem currently is that since the active tank of the ship requires a shield booster in order to gain access to the bonus. This means that the ship only has 5 mids left to do everything else. CCP seems to have acknowlegded this fact when they gave the cyclone an additional midslot when the battlecruisers were redesigned. By adding a 7th mid, you can get an effective fleet ship by using another LSE II in this slot instead of a shield booster, setting up a rather large passive tank - which due to the unusually fast shield regeneration this ship would seem to have would make it even more effective. I would start by changing the slot layout to 8/7/4 (the rokh and maleststom have the same slot layout which is odd) but I also wouldn't put out of the realm of possibility that an additional mid should be added outright. In addition changing the bonus from ROF to damage should also fall under consideration since if it's supposed to be an artillery platform effort should be made toward ending the fight as quickly as possible, due to the fact that the longer a fight goes in an arty platform the worse off you generally are.

The other ship that would seem to need some help is the hyperion. I tried to set one of these up on the test server, only to run out of grid using a T1 ion setup - this while using a single rep as well. The hyperion's problem is simply that it has too little grid - in fact, it has less grid than the megathron, while having 1 less low slot to increase it with. What this means is currently if you use what I would think of as a standard setup on this ship - LAR II, heavy injector, guns - you're looking at electrons if you bother to put any kind of tank in the low slots instead of multiple grid boosting modules. If you compare it to the megathron it in fact has less powergrid than the mega, which makes no sense. The amount of power using modules on it is the same as the megathon, so there is no justification for this. The simple solution is to change the grid on this ship to fix this problem; maybe something in the 17k range. This should allow for fitting the ship as it should be designed and would make it as effective as it should be.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.28 16:37:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Lets not go down the whole; Cruiser = bigger Frigate, Battleship = bigger Cruiser road. It's boring and lacking originality.


because just makeing a better version of already existing battleships needs so much more originality.

at least for amarr our frig and crusier lineup offers some versatility in the form of drone, ewar and missile ships besides the standard amarr lasers and tank. when you get the the battleship level we already have 2 ships specializing in lasers and armor tanks. we do not need a 3rd.


SpMind
Posted - 2006.10.28 17:41:00 - [208]
 

Hey m8s, what are you talking about? I do not need any drone or EW boat for amarrians, and i am not alone.

Geddon - fleet dmgdealer, gang battleship. Not so expensive, but dangerous in closecombat Wink
Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use
and 5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level.

Apoc - i thik this ship must become a sniper
Special Ability: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
and 5% maximum Capacitor Capacity per level.


Abbadon - expensive fleet dmgdealer\soloplatform. All what we need - just incrace capcitor recharge and/or cap capcity.
Special Ability: 5% Large Energy turret rate of fire per level. And 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level



Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.28 17:44:00 - [209]
 

Exactely what can you do with the Abaddon that you cannot do with an Armageddon or Apocalypse?

SpMind
Posted - 2006.10.28 18:05:00 - [210]
 

Actualy no.

@ Geddon i have only 3 med slots, it not enough for solo. Apoc deal small dmg than mega for example. And apocs tank not mutch powerfull than mega.


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