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Ysolde Xen
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.27 12:17:00 - [151]
 

Are we *sure* that the shield recharge time of the Maelstrom isn't just a typo that's going to be 'fixed'?

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 12:19:00 - [152]
 

some ideas on what could make the abaddon different from the already existing amarrian battleships:

1. big arbitrator:

6-5-8 (or 7-5-7)
3 turrets
2 launchers
250m3 dronespace (minimum should be 200m3)

20% optimal range for tracking disruptors
10% drone dmg/hp

bs size version of the arbitrator. instead of td efficency bonus it gets a range bonus like the scorp to be used agaisnt other longrange bs. enough dronespace for 2 waves of heavy drones (domi has 3 waves). like the arbi it deals most of its damage with its drones and has mixed turret/launcher hardpoints. in contrast to the domi it is less focused on wepaons and direct damage and more a support ship (something amarr really needs) like it is already with arbi and vexor.

--

2. current abaddon + tanking with missiles

8-4-7
8 turrets
6 launchers

5% laser damage or rof
5% armor resistance

basicly like it is now but with unbonused launchers so it has a viable weapon for use when tanking. without missile bonuses those will not be anywhere near the ravens capabilities so theres no problem with it becoming a better missile spammer and it doesnt have to resort to matari weapons to tank without capusing weapons. also gives amarr a chance to deal non em/therm damage.

--

3. laser sniper

8-4-7
8 turrets

10% laser optimal range
10& laser cap use reduction (or 5% armor resistanc)

does what the name says. sniping with lasers. less damage than the tux proposed one but better range. 2nd bonus either laser sustainability or resistance like it has now. its still yet another laser boat but at least it will give us something we dont already have with a dedicated sniper instead of just being a better geddon.

--

4. dedicated tanker

6-5-8
4 launchers
150m3 dronespace

5% armor resitance
10% nos/neut ammount or 7.5% repair boost or cap recharge or some other tanking or logistics bonus

deals damage with drones and unbonused launchers while tanking real nice. didnt add any turret slots as lasers arnt all that good for tanking anyway. if targetting members of your own gang was easier and quicker the 2nd bonus could also become a logistics bonus for remote armor reppers for example.


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.27 12:53:00 - [153]
 

meh.. nifel has a point but I still would give a dmg+shield hp bonus to the maelstorm, while improving agility of the tempest.


*queue in nifel screaming "OMFG YOU FOO! STOP SCREAMING BABBLING STUFF! YOU SUCK YADDA YADDA"*

ok, why do I say that dmg+shield hp would be better:


we have the typhoon as the minmatar close range slugger.
doesn't have that much grid, but instead has a more bigger flexibility in his firepower since it's based in 3 weapon systems(guns+missiles+drones).
however to use the 3 systems in full power it needs to go short range, which means mwd, and using armor tanking in his 7 lowslots.

typhoon = close-range slugger with flexible firepower. Only change I would give would be a bit more grid tbh.

now the tempest. Tempest, while less flexible in the firepower department, a bigger ammount of med slots allows hime to be more flexible in other departments, whether is able to shield tank, or going armor tanking with Ewar gadgetry in the meds. Boost agility a bit and what do we have? A flexible, agile gunship that can go short range hit-n-run with mild Ewar, or a hit-n-run sniper, used as fire support in smaller gangs.

tempest = multi-range gunship with better flexibility due to more medslots.
Here the boost would be an increase of the ship's agility.

Then we have the maelstrom. Supposed to be a big, fat, sluggish whale with no better agility of a raven. Supposed to be a fleet ship. But tempest is already a very good fleet ship, why putting the maelstrom ingame? Well, changing the bonuses accordingly (+5% dmg + 10% shield hp) we have a ship that, while does not give better DoT than the tempest, it overcomes it in alpha-strike ability. No better than the tempest in all fields, but different.

Maelstrom = fat whale with big durability, bigger alpha strike, and sucky DoT.
This is done by changing the RoF + shield boost to damage + shield hp.


so summing it up:

you want close range pwnage with multiple gun systems -> typhoon
you want a flexible and agile gunship proficient in both short and long range -> tempest
you want a battleship that ditches speed and agility for better alpha and durability -> maelstrom





oh and I still say, that, except for the caldari, all races' battleships should be tuned up accordingly so that the new battleships can have a better role.

Thrawnin
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:16:00 - [154]
 

Is it just me or is the Rokh Really small compaired to the other BS's?

The Rokh has the sytle of a big ship but the actual model scaling doesnt own up.

Im just wondering if its the correct model in, dont want what happen to the carrier to happen to the new Battleship.

Personally I think the Rokh should match the Size of the Maelstrom.

Kroesus Marginata
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:24:00 - [155]
 

Hum, i haven't been on the test server yet because of the really crappy long line to get in, but i have seen some footage of the bs's.

I am only talking about 'the look' of the ships, not stats or anything. I whould like to say the caldari bs, is not really caldari enough looking the bs HAS SYMITRY! If you look at the rest of ALL the caldari ship, non are symetrical. I'd really like to see this ship made to look better, as i love the caldari look Very Happy

Second, teh minmatar bs, again, doesn't follow the cool srappy look, it's to clean, it need bitz sticking out and random parts added to make it look interesting.

Third, the ammar bs, i must say is fine, it follows the design pricipal so far, but yea as far as i hear you guys aren't happy with the stats *I'm not commenting on that*

And as for the gallentian bs's, it's just a a megathron with a different look, it's almost like a navy issue mega if i might say, it's not much different, a little dissapointing.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:27:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Kroesus Marginata
And as for the gallentian bs's, it's just a a megathron with a different look, it's almost like a navy issue mega if i might say, it's not much different, a little dissapointing.


Hyperion doesn't have the model ready yet

Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:40:00 - [157]
 

@Maelstrom

There has to be a better solution than this ****ty HP bonus that some people demand. I may be wrong but it feels incredibly boring to have a ship that gains unresisted shield hps per BS lvl.

I know this isn't very constructive but i see the same people posting the same sugestions all the time though a simple shield hp bonus doesn't feel that great. Tbh i would prefer the sucky existing Boost Bonus over the suggested 10% shield HP increase. But that's not a solution either. Why can't we have the 5% resist bonus ? Or just give it another offensive bonus?

And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:42:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks
And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P


it is an optionRazz

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:46:00 - [159]
 

Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 27/10/2006 13:47:10
The Maelstrom with its current stats needs to have the 10% shield HP per level. As it is the more popular way to shield tank minmatar t2 ships is indeed passive (vagabond, rapier, huginn) and is shield based-but different than caldari. The shield recharge would need to be boosted to 1750 tho.

It makes it a good fleet ship AND has the option for ACs if people want to go that rout. I'd prefer a damage bonus but meh a RoF bonus isn't the end of teh world.

The Abaddon could use a bit more cap too but other than that its pretty good.

More power grid on the Hyperion.

Rokh is about as nice and balanced as you would ask for from a caldari rail boat.

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.10.27 13:52:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Vengarioth Skullshanks
@Maelstrom

There has to be a better solution than this ****ty HP bonus that some people demand. I may be wrong but it feels incredibly boring to have a ship that gains unresisted shield hps per BS lvl.

I know this isn't very constructive but i see the same people posting the same sugestions all the time though a simple shield hp bonus doesn't feel that great. Tbh i would prefer the sucky existing Boost Bonus over the suggested 10% shield HP increase. But that's not a solution either. Why can't we have the 5% resist bonus ? Or just give it another offensive bonus?

And if you want to modify the current BS to give the Mael another role i definatly would make an AC boat out of her. Why ? Because it looks speedy... good argument eh :P




so sayith the guy in an empire pirate alliance that sit on sentries day in and day out hugging low sec borders where the 7.5% boost bonus would most definately give even the lowest SP pirate an advantage to tanking sentry fire.

That is what the raven and scorpions are for.

Freakdevil
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.10.27 14:22:00 - [161]
 

Day 2: Hyperion

Pros:
1. Slot config rocks
2. Armor hp
3. DMG Bonus is excellent

Cons:
1. Extremely cap hungry
2. Agility is too low
3. Drone bay is too small (125 required)
4. Grid is too low

After testing tanked / ganked setup, clearly the tanker won. I fought a very high skilled Maelstrom who had T2 guns/ammo close range. It was very close fight but I won with only T1 guns.

Tracking disruptor 4TW Very Happy

But then he whooped my butt in his Hurricane vs the new Gallente drone boat (forget the name).

I plan to test the Rokh today to see if I can make it a fast sniper

Phenom Fighter
State Protectorate
Posted - 2006.10.27 15:11:00 - [162]
 

Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?

They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...

Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.27 15:16:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
meh.. nifel has a point but I still would give a dmg+shield hp bonus to the maelstorm, while improving agility of the tempest.


*queue in nifel screaming "OMFG YOU FOO! STOP SCREAMING BABBLING STUFF! YOU SUCK YADDA YADDA"*

ok, why do I say that dmg+shield hp would be better:


we have the typhoon as the minmatar close range slugger.
doesn't have that much grid, but instead has a more bigger flexibility in his firepower since it's based in 3 weapon systems(guns+missiles+drones).
however to use the 3 systems in full power it needs to go short range, which means mwd, and using armor tanking in his 7 lowslots.

typhoon = close-range slugger with flexible firepower. Only change I would give would be a bit more grid tbh.


this is not versatility, this is crapness... split weapon system is all but versatile, why so many phoon pilot don't use turrets and 1 of the ship bonuses at all?

you have 2 weapon systems that behave very differently the with different pro and cons... the problem is that the way it is now you get mostly the cons from them and is very problematic to upgrade their damage...

1 damage mod to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs)

1 rig to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs)

so plz stop with this misunderstanding, split weapon system is all but versatile

Originally by: Grimpak

now the tempest. Tempest, while less flexible in the firepower department, a bigger ammount of med slots allows hime to be more flexible in other departments, whether is able to shield tank, or going armor tanking with Ewar gadgetry in the meds. Boost agility a bit and what do we have? A flexible, agile gunship that can go short range hit-n-run with mild Ewar, or a hit-n-run sniper, used as fire support in smaller gangs.

tempest = multi-range gunship with better flexibility due to more medslots.
Here the boost would be an increase of the ship's agility.


tempest imo is fine as it is now, a bit more speed/agility can help, but this is for all minnie bs, wich minimal speed bonus generally doesn't really matter.

Originally by: Grimpak

Then we have the maelstrom. Supposed to be a big, fat, sluggish whale with no better agility of a raven. Supposed to be a fleet ship. But tempest is already a very good fleet ship, why putting the maelstrom ingame? Well, changing the bonuses accordingly (+5% dmg + 10% shield hp) we have a ship that, while does not give better DoT than the tempest, it overcomes it in alpha-strike ability. No better than the tempest in all fields, but different.

Maelstrom = fat whale with big durability, bigger alpha strike, and sucky DoT.
This is done by changing the RoF + shield boost to damage + shield hp.


damage mod is bad... alpha is dead, is useless to have a damage mod that gives less dps than rof...

with your changes i think the mael will do less dps than a pest and this is a nono... all t3 bs do more damage than t1-t2 why the minnie one should be gimped?

minnie ships need ROF bonus because the base dps of proj is quite crappy so the best dps mod is needed.

before various HP boosts alpha was viable and effective in some circumstances... after all these boosts it lost all its effectiveness (exept against frigs :P)

if arty will get a base damage mod of +50% (with rof reduce to keep similar dps) then i can see the 5% to damage as a good bonus... but as it is not the case and (probably) it will never be, such bonus will just gimp a ship

Originally by: Grimpak

so summing it up:

you want close range pwnage with multiple gun systems -> typhoon
you want a flexible and agile gunship proficient in both short and long range -> tempest
you want a battleship that ditches speed and agility for better alpha and durability -> maelstrom


as said phoon is versatility is a "myth", and alpha is no more effective... Rolling Eyes

mael need shield boost converted to shield hps, phoon needs split weapon to go away, minnies need pror revamped

Paladineguru
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.10.27 15:17:00 - [164]
 

I think we want bs's that fill roles that dont exist within our race more than anything. for instance a decent gallente missle platform since the domi handle ew and drones nicely and the megathron can do either ranged or close in

it looks like the only one they got right first time out was the caldari.

amar need something that can actually do decent dps

and the minmatar could use a drone platform.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.27 15:31:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 27/10/2006 15:33:16
Originally by: Ath Amon
stuff edited to fit in post



don't agree with that. only case where such thing happens is in amarr. Gallente has an half assed blaster boat for tier3 while tier2, wich is not supposed to be a blaster boat, is better at that role, and raven does more damage than rohk.

wich brings the point that Phenom fighter stated:

Originally by: Phenom Fighter
Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?

They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...

Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.



and I also believe that alpha is not dead. Tux said they want to increase the 1400's dmg by 5% or so, which brings to the fact that an howie abbadon/apoc will do the same alpha as a maelstorm if it has RoF instead damage.

Stop thinking in DPS/DoT wise. Fighting should not be in favor of who can make more damage alone.


as for the phoon, never said that weapon versatility was a good thing.
however, since you are doing a DPS/DoT comparision, go check the graphs where a fully armed typhoon (T2 AC/siege + T2 ogres) beats the tempest in damage.
it does.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.27 15:58:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

don't agree with that. only case where such thing happens is in amarr. Gallente has an half assed blaster boat for tier3 while tier2, wich is not supposed to be a blaster boat, is better at that role, and raven does more damage than rohk.

wich brings the point that Phenom fighter stated:

Originally by: Phenom Fighter
Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?

They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...

Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.



i agree but minnies can't really do that for different things... minnie EW is crappy and proj dps are so low that they need rof to be comparable to other weapons with no dmg mods.

so a proj to be comparable with a +rof laser or a +dmg hybrid need 2 dmg mods (and we are out ship bonuses)

this imo "gimp" all the possibility to design versatile ships... as you always end up there...

also consider that probably new ships probably do around 10-20% more damage than previous ships... to have the tempest (that had alredy damage problems compared to other ship) as the main minnie dps turret boat will be a bit ehm... problematic

Originally by: Grimpak

and I also believe that alpha is not dead. Tux said they want to increase the 1400's dmg by 5% or so, which brings to the fact that an howie abbadon/apoc will do the same alpha as a maelstorm if it has RoF instead damage.


but they will do less dps who is the main factor... they want to have same alpha? ok... the cost is crappy dps.

Originally by: Grimpak

Stop thinking in DPS/DoT wise. Fighting should not be in favor of who can make more damage alone.


is quite the opposite, if ships had not the 50% hps boost then it was viable... so is not that i'm narrow minded and think all in dps (even if dps is a veeeeery important factor and generally dps is the main parameter in weapon graphs)
the problem is that with such hp boost the alpha lost its effectiveness... your hits are 35% less effective (if i'm not wrong) and for a parameter that focus on instant damage it equals to a nerf into oblivion, probably we are going to fight against ships with 40-50k total hps to have a damage mod of 10 instead of 8 will not mean anything

Originally by: Grimpak

as for the phoon, never said that weapon versatility was a good thing.
however, since you are doing a DPS/DoT comparision, go check the graphs where a fully armed typhoon (T2 AC/siege + T2 ogres) beats the tempest in damage.
it does.


the phoon beat the pest just because the pest can't use heavy drones... also the phoon can beat just the pest (and maybe the scorp) as every other bs, with a decent setup and a dmg mod or 2 beat the phoon by a good margin

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:09:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Paladineguru

amar need something that can actually do decent dps



amarr already have decent dps with the geddon. supposedly tux will try and fix the enam problem so laser damage should improve again.

we do _not_ need a better version of the apoc or geddon and we do _not_ need a ship that can chose to be either a better apoc or a better geddon.

see my suggestions some posts above for possible solutions to this problem.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 16:18:00 - [168]
 

Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.

1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.


Amarr
Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer.
Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though.
Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).

Caldari - They got this race right
Raven - Missle ship - Caracal big brother
Scorp - ECM boat and good tank - BB big brother
Rokh - Fleet rail boat. - Moa big brother

Gallente -
Domi - great drone ship, big brother of the vexor
Mega - Good blater ship, good rail ship. A nice balanced ship. Thorax big brother
Hyp - Should be and Ewar boat with a sensor damp bonus, and maybe an ROF bonus able to fit a good tank. Have not figured out the other bonus as of yet.

One problem - the best fleet rail user will be Caldari. Although i do feel this fits in with role of gallente. They dont really have any great snipers in other classes of ships easier, but they mega makes a good platform for it.

Matari -
This gets tricky (why people dont like Target painters)
Phoon - Becomes an all around ship with a TP bounus. But a 10% bonus.
It then gets an ROF bonus to all weapon turrets. Meaning it would get a bonus to missile launchers, lasers, hybrids and projectiles.
The phoon would become the ultimate jack of all trades. I dont think that it would be to over powered because without a bonus to cap usage on weapons, it will not be that great with lasers.
So basically the phoon gets the same 2 bonuses it has, plus a TP bonus. Making it an ewar ship, but reognizing that TP is not on par with the other races EWAR.

Tempest - Fleet artilery ship.
Give it one more turret, increase PG to accomodate. Keep it the same.

Mael - Big brother of the stabber, even looks fast like the stabber
More speed then the phoon, with better handling.
Keep its layout and bonuses.

I don't know if this would work out but i think this would make people happy, and give each ship its role, rather then having the

Vicious Phoenix
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:44:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Serapis Aote
Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.

1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.


Amarr
Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer.
Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though.
Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).

Caldari - They got this race right
Raven - Missle ship - Caracal big brother
Scorp - ECM boat and good tank - BB big brother
Rokh - Fleet rail boat. - Moa big brother

Gallente -
Domi - great drone ship, big brother of the vexor
Mega - Good blater ship, good rail ship. A nice balanced ship. Thorax big brother
Hyp - Should be and Ewar boat with a sensor damp bonus, and maybe an ROF bonus able to fit a good tank. Have not figured out the other bonus as of yet.

One problem - the best fleet rail user will be Caldari. Although i do feel this fits in with role of gallente. They dont really have any great snipers in other classes of ships easier, but they mega makes a good platform for it.

Matari -
This gets tricky (why people dont like Target painters)
Phoon - Becomes an all around ship with a TP bounus. But a 10% bonus.
It then gets an ROF bonus to all weapon turrets. Meaning it would get a bonus to missile launchers, lasers, hybrids and projectiles.
The phoon would become the ultimate jack of all trades. I dont think that it would be to over powered because without a bonus to cap usage on weapons, it will not be that great with lasers.
So basically the phoon gets the same 2 bonuses it has, plus a TP bonus. Making it an ewar ship, but reognizing that TP is not on par with the other races EWAR.

Tempest - Fleet artilery ship.
Give it one more turret, increase PG to accomodate. Keep it the same.

Mael - Big brother of the stabber, even looks fast like the stabber
More speed then the phoon, with better handling.
Keep its layout and bonuses.

I don't know if this would work out but i think this would make people happy, and give each ship its role, rather then having the



I love you.

+infinity

Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:57:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Vicious Phoenix
Originally by: Serapis Aote
Been thinking it over and have come up with an idea.

1 role for each BS in each race that is an extension of cruiser roles a bit.


Amarr
Geddon - ganking ship using its lasers, the amarr fleet ship, and main damage dealer.
Apoc - Great tank, low dps, epitome of Amarr veiwpoint of war, heavy tanking ship. Still probably better used with projectiles though.
Abaddon - A drone ship with a large drone bay and a bonus to tracking disruptures. Maybe only a real big bonus to drone hitpoints, rather then to HP and damage (to keep gallente happy about drone superiority).
[...]


signed with 3jear old amarr-only blood.

I love lasers and thick armor plates, but enough is enough, i want to be able to fight below 160km, too...

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 17:58:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
amarr already have decent dps with the geddon. supposedly tux will try and fix the enam problem so laser damage should improve again.

we do _not_ need a better version of the apoc or geddon and we do _not_ need a ship that can chose to be either a better apoc or a better geddon.

see my suggestions some posts above for possible solutions to this problem.


Exactely my thoughts. Please, do it right for once and don't add just another turret ship. Look at caldari! That's how it should be.

Vengarioth Skullshanks
Minmatar
PPN United
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:33:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Vengarioth Skullshanks on 27/10/2006 18:34:21
Originally by: Kaylana Syi


so sayith the guy in an empire pirate alliance that sit on sentries day in and day out hugging low sec borders where the 7.5% boost bonus would most definately give even the lowest SP pirate an advantage to tanking sentry fire.

That is what the raven and scorpions are for.


You sure have your nose quiet up and high haven't you. You see my alliance ticker but in fact you know nothing about me. And fyi a plain pest tanks sentrys just great.Razz

All i want is a tier 3 BS every matari can look forward to. And i'm concerned that a Rof/10%hp increase, or the current hp boost bonus just won't cut it.

For Fleets it's hardly an improvement over a Tempest like already many stated. And for short range again a tempest has the better slot layout and agility. Now how to improve the thing without making the pest obsolete ?

A dmg/5% resi bonus would make her a very good fleet ship. (Oh no it's the caldari bonus and therefore overpowered :)).

On the other hand if it keeps the active boost bonus it imo needs another medslot. And yes, active tanking has no place in fleetcombat so why bother with it? For the sake of versatility?
At least it will give it a strong tank in shortrange engagements.

Now the proposed rof/hp bonus will make it a slightly improved fleetship over the tempest hardly worth it. Well it always has its looks speaking for it... Razz

Nyxus
Amarr
Fat J
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2006.10.27 18:42:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Nyxus on 27/10/2006 18:44:10
@ Maelstrom: Kaylana and Grim have it right on target. Give it +dam and +10% shield hp per level to tweak it so it is balanced and interesting.

The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.

ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000

While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.

Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.

Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.

Nyxus

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.27 19:45:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Nyxus
The Abaddon, as Uldyr & Crew have already pointed out, the overall ship concept needs a slight rework. I agree with them, they are right. +dam over +rof for starters. But aside from all that, it has another issue that is just as pressing.

ABADDON NEEDS A GRID INCREASE FROM 21000 TO 24000

While Megabeams and 1400mm arties have the same grid, so the Maelstrom and Abaddon need the same grid for guns, the Maelstrom is a shield tanker (it has more CPU) and the Abaddon is an armor tanker. As such it should have more pg.

Furthermore, 24000pg would allow the Abaddon to fit a full rack of Tachyon IIs @ AWU 5 with 300pg left over. That is balanced. Geddon/Apoc need 2 rcu IIs just to fit Tachys. Abaddon should be able to do it slightly better since it seems to be designed as a fleet ship.

Forcing an armor tanker to have the same PG as a shield tanker when fitting comparable weapons does not make sense, nor is it balanced.

Nyxus




sometimes I don't like the posts about amarrian balance that you post.
however I must agree that a race that is usually 2nd or 3rd in grid size can have a ship that equals the race that usually has the highest grid of all.

Boost abbaddon grid and give it like 25% to 30% more cap.

Bruja Negra
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.27 21:08:00 - [175]
 

One thing, as has already been pointed out, Abbadon needs more cap and yet , what I really feel we Amarrian ship users need is a new Ewar/Drone BS. No, I dont want an Uberdominix Amarrian style. Yes, an Arbitrator gone Battleship for us would be great, perhaps even totally perfect, but in the end, we need a REAL change, not a mere refilling. I feel like I asked for a Super Mega Deluxe Hamburger and got a plain kid's meal dressed in fancy colours.

Now, placing things in perspective, and the way it has been proven on many forum discussions before, The Arbitrator Hull on it's new incarnations as recon ships are Hot not only cuz they look segzy and use drones, but due to damage versatility. Take that, SEE THAT please, and give us a new Abbadon arbitrator style, or something like it. Heck I would even love a 5% drone hp-dmg instead of the usual 10% , but that's better than nothing, cuz the abbadon as it is now , to avoid using a phrase like "teh suq" , let's just say it's: "not entirely up to expectations".

Tux? You really out there listening to us in this thread?

I don't think I'm the only one one asking for a new Arbi BS, and If you don't want to give us one, you can at least give us something like it.

All in all , the Abbadon is ... spilled porridge.

Versatility for the Amarr, not more of the same, even decadent empires innovate every once in a while.

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.27 21:44:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Phenom Fighter
Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why?

They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc...

Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's.


And that is the crux of the problem with the Tier3 battleships that are not the Rokh:

Either make them appreciably better -or- appreciably diffrent. It has to be one or the other.

6.7% better and a random bonus because you couldn't think of anything is not sufficent grounds for a new battleship.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 23:17:00 - [177]
 


i would give a bs sized arbitrator the standard +10% drone dmg/hp bonus because like the arbi it would be a support ship with a td bonus (optimal instead of efficiency). so its lasers cant have the -10% cap use bonus as well, making the use of lasers on the ship not that much of a good idea. so i would stick with the arbi design where drones are used as the main (and sometimes only) source of damage. then add a low number (for its class) of turret and launcher hardpoints (without bonuses on them) and at least 1x utility highslot.




Nebrin
Solstice Systems Development Concourse
Posted - 2006.10.28 04:27:00 - [178]
 

Abbadon needs to have a cap recharge rate bonus, as it is the 8 lasers are going to drain that faster than a fat kid with a slurpy.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.10.28 04:32:00 - [179]
 

a question concerning the Hyperion, gallente seem not too happy about it when comparing to the megathron


but when i compare it to the tempest i cant help but wonder that its a great BS


it got same mass, 10 m/s less base speed, a 35% bigger cap than tempest, 28% bigger cap than mega (granted similar recharge rate), better tankability, much better dmg (even with electrons), same scan resolution
even compared to mega you are faster with more initial cap at hand and you will most likely waste less cap getting close to your target than mega cause you are more agile/faster


with 5 mids you can use double web and dont have to worry about tracking


while i agree that the armour rep bonus is rather weak if compared to resistance bonus, does that ship need more?


as to being similar to mega, i am afraid every ship designed to be a blasterboat will have similarities, atleast in this case you can choose btw the bigger glasscannon with neutrons (mega) or a slightly more survivable on with electrons(hype) and doubleweb



I could be wrong but hype doesnt look nearly as bad to me

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.28 06:02:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz
a question concerning the Hyperion, gallente seem not too happy about it when comparing to the megathron


but when i compare it to the tempest i cant help but wonder that its a great BS


it got same mass, 10 m/s less base speed, a 35% bigger cap than tempest, 28% bigger cap than mega (granted similar recharge rate), better tankability, much better dmg (even with electrons), same scan resolution
even compared to mega you are faster with more initial cap at hand and you will most likely waste less cap getting close to your target than mega cause you are more agile/faster


with 5 mids you can use double web and dont have to worry about tracking


while i agree that the armour rep bonus is rather weak if compared to resistance bonus, does that ship need more?


as to being similar to mega, i am afraid every ship designed to be a blasterboat will have similarities, atleast in this case you can choose btw the bigger glasscannon with neutrons (mega) or a slightly more survivable on with electrons(hype) and doubleweb



I could be wrong but hype doesnt look nearly as bad to me


You hit the nail on the head.

The Hyperion looks like a -very- good ship.

The Megathron is for a fact a -very- good ship.

The problem is that they are good ships for the -same- reasons.

I want a new ship, not a re-mix of the Megathron. When they said it was going to be a blaster boat, my reaction was: "well ok, lets see what the 'next level' of dedicated blaster ship is."

Well, now they have unveiled it, and my reaction is: "hey wtf, that's a Megathron with a spoiler and a racing stripe, you said we were getting a -new- ship. Like how the Caldari got the Rokh."

The reactions to the Abaddon and Maelstorm seem to be in a similar vein.

They either need to make the ships better -or- diffrent. Right now they are kinda sorta barely better, but not really, and diffrent if your defining diffrent as not being an identical copy.


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