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Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.27 06:14:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Illuminaty on 27/10/2006 06:15:55
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.


This just caught my attention:

8/7.5 = 1.0667

Is 6.7% enough diffrence to even justify making a new ship?

The Hyperion/Malestorm/Abbadon just seem so 'wtf, why would I pay more for a ship that really does the same damn thing as another ship that I already have'.

Edit:(I mean for ffs, combine lag with the need to activate more turrets and your probably doing less damage)

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 06:37:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Illuminaty
Edited by: Illuminaty on 27/10/2006 06:15:55
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.


This just caught my attention:

8/7.5 = 1.0667

Is 6.7% enough diffrence to even justify making a new ship?

The Hyperion/Malestorm/Abbadon just seem so 'wtf, why would I pay more for a ship that really does the same damn thing as another ship that I already have'.

Edit:(I mean for ffs, combine lag with the need to activate more turrets and your probably doing less damage)


If you want the absolutely best alphastrike then yes, it's worth it. It is, as many has noted, not cost-effective, but if you want the absolutely best alphastrike (at a reasonable price) you won't really worry about that. Lots of BoB pilots will fly it simply because it has the ROF bonus and 8 turrets. If the shield tanking bonus stays we'll use it for ew/tc/sb just like we do with the tempest.

The real question about the Maelstorm is the tank bonus. It's more suited for a small/med gatecamp/fight and ac-setups than fleetfights which it's been touted as. Given that I'm in favour of changing it and the best suggestion I've seen so far was 10% shield hp per lvl.

Such a bonus would give less resists than the Rohk, but you can with the current stats of the ship make a reasonable fleet setup with decent resists and a recharge rate that equals a large sbII. Equal to the Rohk in shieldtanking, but sufficently different enough to not encroach on Caldari's field. It also allows for more flexibility than the current bonus as you can choose to just give it some better resists and then go for damage increasing mods, go for an uber passive tank, something in between, and even in some situations go with an armor tank and utilize those medslots for ew/other useful medslot mods.

A resistance bonus would give it about the same versitality but along different paths.

Ni Nee
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:01:00 - [123]
 

The bottom line on the Maelstrum is Minmatar pilots do not like shield boost bonus. Why not give that bonus to the Caldari BS and give us the range bonus and everyone will be happy!

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:23:00 - [124]
 

FFS, just fit an faction gyrostab instead of a gyrostab II then.

6.7% is a diffrence that is only going to be noticable in a theoretical discussion about something or an e-peen measuring contest. It isn't sufficent grounds to base an entire battleship around.

I'd be happy if they took the Hyperion, Maelstorm, and Abaddon back to the drawing board and came back with something that _adds_ to the ship lineup like the Rokh adds to the caldari lineup.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:47:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:47:35

This thread is turning out exacly like I thought it would. Total chaos...Which is better: 50000 threads or 50000 posts in one thread.... :p


Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:53:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:55:13
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.


I meant the apoc with projectiles here. Of course tachs dont have the alpha of projectiles.

So Tempest doesnt have more alphastrike than the projectile apoc. Like you say here, it has 7.5 effective turrets of alpha strike. Apoc has 8.

Maelstrom will have higher alpha than the Tempest, yes. By 0.5 turrets.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 07:58:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:58:09
Originally by: Tiuwaz
Tempest:
"...a versatile gunship..."
Typhoon:
"...Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility...
Maelstrom:
"With the Maelstrom, versatility is the name of the game..."


with so much versatility you cant help but get a warm and fuzzy heart, despite that could we get for a change a minmatar BS with a defined role? Razz


Most versatile ships in the game is probably Raven and Dominix tbh.... but who am I to disagree with the devs. The Maelstrom looks versatile though. Its all in the slot layouts, not the race. Wink

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:14:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Nifel on 27/10/2006 08:13:50
Originally by: Illuminaty
FFS, just fit an faction gyrostab instead of a gyrostab II then.

6.7% is a diffrence that is only going to be noticable in a theoretical discussion about something or an e-peen measuring contest. It isn't sufficent grounds to base an entire battleship around.

I'd be happy if they took the Hyperion, Maelstorm, and Abaddon back to the drawing board and came back with something that _adds_ to the ship lineup like the Rokh adds to the caldari lineup.


Yeah... ppl should start fitting faction gyrostabs. Will drive up the price even more, not to mention demand in such a situation would far outstrip supply. Great plan!

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:23:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 07:55:13
Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.


I meant the apoc with projectiles here. Of course tachs dont have the alpha of projectiles.

So Tempest doesnt have more alphastrike than the projectile apoc. Like you say here, it has 7.5 effective turrets of alpha strike. Apoc has 8.

Maelstrom will have higher alpha than the Tempest, yes. By 0.5 turrets.



Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?

Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 08:36:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 08:39:13
Originally by: Nifel

Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?

Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.


It needs a damage bonus because there is no reason to use it over any other 8 turret battleship otherwise. If the other battleships get bonuses to give them a specific role, why doesnt the Maelstrom? You know that ROF and shield boost are probably the worst bonuses possible for a fleet ship.

Sure, if you increase its survivability by shield hp and resists, then at least it gets some bonuses that fits its role. Thats all I ask.

But to be honest, I think the ship is meant to be small gang support at medium range. Thats why all these discussions about a role in a fleet is probably just making the devs shake their heads. Its not the ships purpose, judging from its current bonuses.

However, I dont see why you would use the Maelstrom instead of the Tempest for small gangs. The shield boost is only useful when taking fire from a small number of ships. Otherwise, it just wont have time to get useful.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:21:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 08:39:13
Originally by: Nifel

Right... so again why does it need a dmg bonus when it already outdamages the tempest to make it a worthwhile ship? Ships have been given a rather healthy hp boost and you want to give a 8-turret howizter ship a damage bonus in the light of that?

Give me more survivability (10% shield hp or 5% shield resistance) and I'll jump into that baby without a second thought. It'd make a great fleet ship compared to the tempest which is merely a (very) good fleet ship.


It needs a damage bonus because there is no reason to use it over any other 8 turret battleship otherwise. If the other battleships get bonuses to give them a specific role, why doesnt the Maelstrom? You know that ROF and shield boost are probably the worst bonuses possible for a fleet ship.

Sure, if you increase its survivability by shield hp and resists, then at least it gets some bonuses that fits its role. Thats all I ask.

But to be honest, I think the ship is meant to be small gang support at medium range. Thats why all these discussions about a role in a fleet is probably just making the devs shake their heads. Its not the ships purpose, judging from its current bonuses.

However, I dont see why you would use the Maelstrom instead of the Tempest for small gangs. The shield boost is only useful when taking fire from a small number of ships. Otherwise, it just wont have time to get useful.



Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.

And as for what the devs have said about the maelstorm, tux said he wanted it to be a shieldtanking artillery platform. And yes... for small/medium gangs the bonus fits, somewhat. Problem is that if you're gonna go in close/medium range with an artillery setup you're better off with tracking computers than an active shield tank. So then you end up with a long range setup if you want to hit + tank effectively and all of the sudden you're left with fleet distances.

Better then to change the shield boost bonus to something that allows for both scenarios and allows for more flexibility. With a hp/res bonus you're still extremely useful in the active tanking department in small/medium gangs, but it also broadens the applications of the ship to include fleet fights.

What is there not to like?

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:31:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Nifel

Better then to change the shield boost bonus to something that allows for both scenarios and allows for more flexibility. With a hp/res bonus you're still extremely useful in the active tanking department in small/medium gangs, but it also broadens the applications of the ship to include fleet fights.

What is there not to like?


I like it, but it needs 10% shield hp per level if its going to get a shield hp bonus. The lower shield recharge rate of the Maelstrom (1500s instead of 2000s) might then allow it to build up a fairly decent passive tank.

The resistance bonus would be even better, but thats taken by Caldari... and as far as I know, they dont like to give it to other races.

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:31:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Logan Xerxes on 27/10/2006 09:33:50
FINALLY I get the link working...

Fun with graphs!Razz as you can see the Mega will still put out more damage than the Rokh in sub-60km ranges. And let's be honest, a majority of all fights occur below this range.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:33:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 09:33:34

Yes, the Rohk has range, and luckily its not a dps monster as well.

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.27 09:42:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 27/10/2006 09:33:34

Yes, the Rohk has range, and luckily its not a dps monster as well.



Then have a gander at this graph....Shocked

Graph2

*Runs like a little girl from the AbaddonShocked*

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:09:00 - [136]
 

With a 3 active harderner setup.
Heeello, RMR is here. Try it with 3 EAN2.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:21:00 - [137]
 

Actually I saw an idea for the minmatar one earlier in the thread that seemed quite original - and works with the race well.

Minmatar already have a flexible ship, they already have a fleet sniper. They need something new.

Minmatar get target painting boni, we all know that...but people aren't hugely impressed...but what else do minmatar use? Missiles. What missiles are really helped by target painters? Torps!

So you get the new minmatar ship:

8 High slots, 7 or 8 launcher hard points, 3 or 4 turret hardpoints
5 Mid slots
7 Low slots

Bonus: 10% per level on target painter range and effectiveness
Bonus: 10% per level on torpedo rate of fire

It's an armour tanking torpedo firing beast, using target painters to get proper effectiveness from its torpedos.

Different from all the other battleships out there (even the raven) as its torpedo only but has a target painter bonus to let it use torps effectively. It has enough mid slots to run a target painter or two and maybe a web (+warp scram for PvP) it has enough low slots to build a good armour tank even without a tanking bonus.

Sounds pretty good to me :)

Toaster Oven
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:21:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:22:39
Proposal: Abbadon

No one is really too happy with the Abbadon. I propose that you redesign it as a mixed laser-drone platform. Not as drone oriented as it's Gallente counterpart, Abbadon will require usage of lasers to compete with it's peers (ie Nos+Drone combo not feasible). Here it is, plain and simple:

Abbadon
7-5-7
175m3 drone bay
6 turret hardpoints

Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level



NOS + drone combo is not feasible. On Abbadon it would leave it vulnerable as it can't carry backup waves of drones like Domi can. Focus is on combining damage with some versatility, something Amarr lacks atm. We don't need another turret ship. Especially one that's utterly dependent on cap boosters.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:22:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Nifel
Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.



That is exactly why people are arguing for a damage bonus. They don't fly projo apocs now because the alpha-advantage of 8 turrets with no damage bonus is negligible, but the additional cost associated with it is not. It will be the same with the Mael. Even worse maybe. Only people having too much money and/or not caring about money will fly a ship in a fleet that (probably) costs 50% more in ship price and 33% more in guns, for a whooping 6.66% more damage...
This might not apply to you seeing how you are in BoB, but not everyone is rich or in a rich big alliance owning T2 BPOs.

Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:26:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Amira Silvermist on 27/10/2006 10:26:09
Originally by: Forsch
YES to a big arbitrator.

Slots: 7/6/6, 4 turret, 3 launcher
Drone bay: 175m or 200m (5 heavy, 5 medium and optional 5 light)

Bonus1: 10% per level for tracking disruptor optimal range
Bonus2a: 10% drone hp/dmg per level
Bonus2b: 5% armor resists per level

(This means either 2a or 2b. I'd prefer 2a but if that comes to close to the domi, 2b would be fine, too.)



I absolutely support that idea!
The Abaddon needs a unique role.

DanMck
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:35:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: DanMck on 27/10/2006 10:54:22
my 10p

for the Abbadon , we don't need a bigger drone bay or missiles

we just need the ability to fire our guns for longer , espically if the fights will last longer

there is no fun or tatics in a ship that you run out of cap in regardless of nos use or not

increase the default cap by half and leave the rest the same

edit =
most of our ships have a cap bonus due to the high cap per shot use of lasers , but with a ROF bonus and no cap bonus we are struggling , a geddon just now can run out of cap so quickly and that is with the bonus .i don't want to think of it without Very Happy

Tharrn
Amarr
Epitoth Fleet Yards
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:41:00 - [142]
 

Speak for yourself. Flying Amarr ships only I'd kill for a drone or missile boat.

Yes, I trained both. Thanks to the idiots who claim Amarr are not flexible :P I just don't want to be forced to train for the Caldari alpha-race.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:45:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Nifel
Go ahead and jump into that apoc/abaddon with 8 1400 II's and a rof of 14-15 seconds or so (iirc). I'll stick with the maelstorm in that case thank you. By that logic we should see loads of 1400mm-fitted apocs already, which we don't. We see tempests instead.



That is exactly why people are arguing for a damage bonus. They don't fly projo apocs now because the alpha-advantage of 8 turrets with no damage bonus is negligible, but the additional cost associated with it is not. It will be the same with the Mael. Even worse maybe. Only people having too much money and/or not caring about money will fly a ship in a fleet that (probably) costs 50% more in ship price and 33% more in guns, for a whooping 6.66% more damage...
This might not apply to you seeing how you are in BoB, but not everyone is rich or in a rich big alliance owning T2 BPOs.


The difference in relative cost regarding guns is 2x 1400mm II. If you can't afford that you shouldn't be flying BS anyway. Ship price doesn't matter once insurance comes into play. And the reason people don't fly artillery-apocs is because after the first volley the ship is subpar to everything.

And I'm more inclined to believe that the people that argue for a damage bonus, do it because it'd be the ****ing pwn in fleetbattles. Which is exactly why I don't think it'll ever happen. Basically... asking for a damage bonus for the Maelstorm is asking for a ship that bypasses the hp buffs.

Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.27 10:52:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Toaster Oven
Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 10:22:39
No one is really too happy with the Abbadon.



this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons

Toaster Oven
Posted - 2006.10.27 11:05:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 11:05:54
Originally by: Sniser
this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons


You are in the vast minority. The amount of whining on the forum is clear evidence. One post by you does not stand up to the hundreds of complaints lodged thus far.

And to look at it objectively. How much would you need to boost Abbadon cap to be viable? Enough to be able to fire it's guns continuously? There's no way in hell devs would ever give it a base cap regen of 60cap/s with max skills. Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath...

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.27 11:07:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Toaster Oven

Proposal: Abbadon
...

7-5-7
175m3 drone bay
6 turret hardpoints

Bonuses:
10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use per skill level
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level



the dronebay is too small. should be at least 200m3 for 1 wave of each hvy, med and small. preferably 250m3 for 2 waves of heavy drones. domi has 3 waves btw.

also i would prefer it without a bonus to its guns as that would make it pretty close to the domi & vexor design. gallente seem to go for drones + weapons bonus (well not the new bc but the others) while the arbi hulls gain most if not all damage from drones and have a support role instead of damage.

gonna post some abaddon ideas later


Sniser
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.27 11:15:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Sniser on 27/10/2006 11:15:28
Originally by: Toaster Oven
Edited by: Toaster Oven on 27/10/2006 11:05:54
Originally by: Sniser
this is not true. Im happy with abaddon if it had a bit more powergrid than maelstorm and it had a bit more Cap and Cap reg to help firing the weapons


You are in the vast minority. The amount of whining on the forum is clear evidence. One post by you does not stand up to the hundreds of complaints lodged thus far.

And to look at it objectively. How much would you need to boost Abbadon cap to be viable? Enough to be able to fire it's guns continuously? There's no way in hell devs would ever give it a base cap regen of 60cap/s with max skills. Would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath...


Im not speaking about be able to fire guns continously maybe for 1 or 2 min more. And enough powergrid to be able fit guns. Armor rep and turret rigs(they use pg). A bit more cap helps a lot when you use cpr.

We may have to use cpr to be able substain shooting our guns but the other races will need use RCU to be able fit turret rigs since their will dont have enough powergrid to do it. I think this is called balance...

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.10.27 11:19:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Mysterlee
Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 11:02:27
Edited by: Mysterlee on 26/10/2006 10:54:53
The abaddon should become a big arbitrator but not so good that it outclasses the dominix. 8-6-5 slot layout with 5 turret hardpoints and 5 missile hardpoints, 10% laser cap reduction (or 10% drone damage) and 5% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level with a 200m3 drone bay.


Well that setup with 4 turret, 4 launchers and 10% drone damage will make it a Typhoon on steroids and will easily outclass a Dominix as well. After all with the current grid you could fit 8 heavy NOS + tank and still do the same drone damage as a NOSDomi. Or fit it like a Typhoon but with 4 Siege, 4 Tach, 5 T2 Ogres and a super tank. Not to mention you will put the DPS of a Typhoon to shame in the process.

Simply you can't give a drone bonus to a ship that has 2.5x the grid of a Dominix.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.10.27 11:37:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Simply you can't give a drone bonus to a ship that has 2.5x the grid of a Dominix.


If it would be changed this way (which I hostely doubt, no matter how much justified complaining will happen, I would bet 100 mil that the aba will be virtually unchanged (exept perhaps a bit more grid) when kali goes live)..er..where was I?

Anyway, IF if it would be changed this way obviously the grid would have to be reduced as well.

Angeldust
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.10.27 12:15:00 - [150]
 

Mealstrom vs Tempest shows a few problems.

For an effective 8 turrets instead of 7.5 I need to
- buy a much more expensive ship (higher base price + less BPOs in the beginning)
- buy 2 more expensive t2 turrets
- use 33% more ammo while having a smaller cargo
- fly a far slower and heavier ship

So while the slow/heavy part should not be a problem in itself, seperating potential usage for tempest (ac) and mealstrom (arty), the Mealstrom *does* need some additional incentive to acutally be used over the tempest as an artillery ship.

The main problem here is that arties seem to work mostly on ships with 2 damage bonuses due to their low base dps and the problem of being able to fix that with damage mods having been nerfed (stacking penalty).

So while adding a damage bonus would sadly make it too tempest-like, the ship seems to be in need of another bonus that helps its intended artillery role.

Personally I'd like a falloff bonus Very Happy but any bonus doing something decent for its intended role should help, actually.

Also, that 7th med slot might be an option instead of another offensive bonus.



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