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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:28:00 - [91]
 

First of all, if Amarr get a drone boat I will lose exactly zero skill points. I'm Gallente AND Amarr specialized. I got laser specialization prior to hybrid specialization. My first interceptor was a Crusader, my second a Malediction. My three most used ships are in order: Taranis, Megathron, Vengeance.
I'm not anti-Amarr. I use them myself.

Now that that is done, you should all know that the reason Amarr has the Arbitrator is a one-off. It is merely happenstance, and the devs pursuit of the generic that's been going on for a few years, that has the Arbitrator similar to the Vexor in drone power. I'm old enough to tell the story of when the Thorax was the drone cruiser and the Arbitrator had less than half it's drone bay.
Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.
That the Amarr recons are also drone cruisers is a very sad happenstance and completely due to them having the bonuses of their base hulls than anything the "fluff" would say.

That aside, that Amarr should have drone ships is fine as long as game balance also adheres to the game "fluff". The "fluff" clearly states that Gallente invented drones, developed drones, and continue to hold drone mechanics and AI as their high-technological foothold.
By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.
Now, using drones is slightly more than just the number, size, and bonus to drones, it also somewhat inherit some of the miscellaneous power of the ship itself.

In effect, introducing an Amarr ship with a +10% drone damage bonus with a drone bay larger than 120 metrics will upset the conceptual balance among the races. IF it is introduced at tier 3 when the Gallente ship is relegated to tier 1. If the situation could be reversed, it could be very well workable having an Amarr drone ship - even with the same drone bonus and drone bay as the Gallente one.

This is not about Amarr not getting a drone boat. This is about not ****ing up the backstory. This is about not ****ing up the reasons people have trained for this or that race just because people think the grass is greener at the moment.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:33:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Forsch on 26/10/2006 20:35:34

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.

And the 2nd missile race. And the 2nd shield tanking race.
Imo drones are not any more of a 2nd weapon to minmatar as they are to amarr.

Originally by: Ithildin
By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.

Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?

P.S. I still think the tier3 battleship should not be "better" then the tier1 and tier2.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:37:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 26/10/2006 20:37:57
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin
By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.

Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?



vexor, while equal in terms of drone firepower with the arbi, is capable of dishing more firepower (+5% hybrid damage), while the arbi is more of an Ewar platform.

however, the arbi has more armor and meds, wich makes him a better ECM nosdrone ship.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:44:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Edited by: Forsch on 26/10/2006 20:35:34

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.

And the 2nd missile race. And the 2nd shield tanking race.
Imo drones are not any more of a 2nd weapon to minmatar as they are to amarr.

Minmatar are secondary everything, what's your point? And did you do as I asked? Did you check the Minmatar drone bays?
Quote:
Originally by: Ithildin
By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.

Apparently not. Or how is the vexor better with drones than the arbi?

P.S. I still think the tier3 battleship should not be "better" then the tier1 and tier2.

The Arbitrator specifically states it's unusual. That it is comparable with the Vexor is a game design fault which becomes apparent if you read it's description where the designers state that it's not the best drone cruiser around.

Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:49:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

vexor, while equal in terms of drone firepower with the arbi, is capable of dishing more firepower (+5% hybrid damage), while the arbi is more of an Ewar platform.

however, the arbi has more armor and meds, wich makes him a better ECM nosdrone ship.


exactly. the vexor is different from the arbi. not better.

in the same way an amarrian drone bs does not need to be better or worse than the domi but different. if you want to go with the arbi as a start it would get a reasonably big dronebay (200m3 or so) a mix of turret and launcher hardpoints and a balanced slotlayout. stick the 10% dmg/hp dronebonus on it and then some other non-weapon bonus. td-optimal range could be one. some tanking or logistics bonus another.


also: i'm pretty certain Forsch knows how an arbi works.


Red Ochre
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:52:00 - [96]
 

interesting thread, confusing with all the i wants, and it needs to be done this way posts. here is a proposal, how about YOU change the way you fight? wow, wild idea there.

out of nearly 4 pages i see 6 suggestions with solutions that ccp would even consider, and if ccp is looking to placate the small pvp community then maybe a few more (i hope not).

lets try to keep our wants and desires and changes to these ships to what the community as a whole can use, not one demographic slice of the community.Twisted Evil

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.10.26 20:54:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003.

People usually start with insults when they lack real arguments.
Fyi I started at the end of the beta with another char.

So far I haven't seen any valid point that speaks against a battleship sized drone ship for Amarr. And tbh I don't understand your anger about it either if you can fly both anyway.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Ithildin
Then again, you aren't old enough to properly remember the stats ships had back when they were still true to concepts and ideologies. Go to BoB's killboard and search for ship infos to get enlightened. The core of BoB's ship database is from 2003.

People usually start with insults when they lack real arguments.
Fyi I started at the end of the beta with another char.

So far I haven't seen any valid point that speaks against a battleship sized drone ship for Amarr. And tbh I don't understand your anger about it either if you can fly both anyway.


well, taking a more "open" approach to the problem, one could say that devs are trying to keep the amarrian ships, big humps of laser-shooting metal with little to no flexibility, in terms of adjusting to the battlefield, relying solely on pure gun power and thick armor to overcome the enemy.

how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.


...this is all pure speculation however.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.10.26 21:01:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Red Ochre
how about YOU change the way you fight?


this is exactly what i would like to be able to do.

unfortunately tux has designed the abaddon to be a bigger and better version of our already existing battleships instead of something new.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:06:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 22:07:30
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 26/10/2006 22:06:26
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Red Ochre
how about YOU change the way you fight?


this is exactly what i would like to be able to do.

unfortunately tux has designed the abaddon to be a bigger and better version of our already existing battleships instead of something new.


Yeah. The Amarr seriously need the "Khanid mark II" change that has been talked about -- or some other variance. While I can whine about the Hyperion being "just another variant of the Mega", it seem that pretty much all Amarr designs are the lasers + armor basic crud.

It gets old. Amarr desperately need variant ships like the Arbitrator (and its t2 cousins Curse and Pilgrim). It's no wonder those ships are popular, they are pretty much the only variety the Amarr have -- in addition to being kick-ass ships in their own right.

The Rokh is fine, as many have noted. The others would really benefit from a rethink, as is they are just copies of already existing ships. They don't open any new roles.

A bs-sized Arbitrator? A bs-sized Celestis? Yes, please! Very Happy

... and I'm pretty sure the Minmatar would love a proper missile battleship.

How about it?

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:11:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak
how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.


The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting Laughing

Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:

Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck!
Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator.
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then?
Now go back 6 lines up.

As for Gallenteans whining about a ship getting the same drone power as the Domi, thats just like the Caldari whine about a Minmatar ship getting as many medslots as a Caldari one. Imho only jealous and possessive bickering. A big arby with a drone bonus just like the Domi would make a great tier3 battleship for amarr.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:17:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

As for Gallenteans whining about a ship getting the same drone power as the Domi, thats just like the Caldari whine about a Minmatar ship getting as many medslots as a Caldari one. Imho only jealous and possessive bickering. A big arby with a drone bonus just like the Domi would make a great tier3 battleship for amarr.


Hey, I'm Gallente and I totally agree. Very Happy A bs-size Arbitrator would rock. As would a missile-based Minmatar bs, and many other variants.

What I don't like is the duplication of ships, currently 3 of the 4 new battleships are just slight variants of already existing ships (and roles). That is, frankly, stupid.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:20:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak
how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.


The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting Laughing

Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:

Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck!
Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator.
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then?
Now go back 6 lines up.


I see you got the pointLaughing

Galea Scorpii
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:31:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak
how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.


The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting Laughing

Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:

Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck!
Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator.
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then?
Now go back 6 lines up.


I see you got the pointLaughing


Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!

Kalianyia
Divinus Talio
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:33:00 - [105]
 

Hyperion:

Please give it more grid. You do not have to worry about people ussing the extra grid for 425mm's because the 50km base targetting range effectively makes fitting rails pretty pointless.

Please give us a blaster boat that can actually fit Neutron Blaster II's and a decent tank. OR Fit Ion or Electron II's with the possibility of fitting 2 LAR's.

Being gimped on PG means if you want any decent DPS out of it, you will be gimping the tanking abilitiy which makes the 7.5% armor rep bonus fairly worthless.

HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Swarm
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:35:00 - [106]
 

Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 22:38:07
Regarding the minnies vs others:

Hyperion shouldn't be faster than Maelstrom. Not w/o a MWD.

Rokh should be as equal of a sniper as temp and mega, NO better. Yeah, they wanted a sniper but why make it better than all the others? We dont have any 6 msl turret bs's or 8 midslot bs's, no one gets an equivelent to Caldari, why should Caldari get an equivelent/better ship than our best?

Maelstrom's SB bonus is crap, i think we all (including tux) can agree on that. A HP boost is kinda dumb too. I guess it will stick though unless they can find a more appropriate bonus, (plz god dont change it to TP bonus)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:38:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Galea Scorpii
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 26/10/2006 22:12:12
Originally by: Grimpak
how does this relate to drones? drones are a more flexible weapon, which is probably why Tuxford doesn't want to do such changes.


The feeling I get when reading these forums (and I do that way too much) is that the problem lies less with Tuxford but more with some hardcore Amarrs. Their stubbornness is only overcome by... But no, that would be insulting Laughing

Needless to say, what I get the feeling is happening is this:

Amarr Guy: Laser damage is teh suck!
Suggestion: Well, you could get a missile ship to be able to to deal other damage types
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train missiles and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, a drone ship would be great, like a big Arbitrator.
Amarr Guy: Nooooooo then I have to train drones and adjust my way of fighting, no no no!
Suggestion: Well, how about another great Laser boat then?
Now go back 6 lines up.


I see you got the pointLaughing


Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!


I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's allRazz

Galea Scorpii
Posted - 2006.10.26 22:43:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!

I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's allRazz


Oh don't be shy :) I love progressive men like you! :)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2006.10.26 23:00:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Galea Scorpii
Originally by: Grimpak

Grimpak rules :) we need more like him!

I don't rule. I am just keen in attempting to find out the obvious that's allRazz


Oh don't be shy :) I love progressive men like you! :)
Smile

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.10.26 23:32:00 - [110]
 

Tempest:
"...a versatile gunship..."
Typhoon:
"...Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility...
Maelstrom:
"With the Maelstrom, versatility is the name of the game..."


with so much versatility you cant help but get a warm and fuzzy heart, despite that could we get for a change a minmatar BS with a defined role? Razz

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2006.10.27 00:01:00 - [111]
 

I think the Devs wanted the Abaddon to be a 'native tachyon' boat. But to be honest, it fails pretty horribly at that. But for those wishing what sort of role it was designed for...CCP has hinted at that many times I believe.

Illuminaty
Posted - 2006.10.27 00:17:00 - [112]
 

Here are some brain storms for some examples of stuff that would make me more excited. The current proposed ships on test just feel like a re-hash of existing ships. Except for the Rokh.

-Malestorm-

Bonus 1: Stasis webber range and target painter effectiveness.
Bonus 2: Seige Launcher ROF bonus.
Role Bonus: -80% combat drone damage, 350 m3 drone bay.

Many missile points, a lot of mids, few lows.

Torpedo + Ewar/utility drone boat. Would provide support for other ships like ravens or maybe even dreads while supporting itself.


-Hyperion-

Bonus 1: Sensor damper strength and warp disruptor range.
Bonus 2: Large Hybrid tracking bonus.
Role Bonus: Can fit Skirmish Warfare command modules.

5-6 turret points, a lot of mids, few lows.
Low mass, good agility.


-Abbadon-

Bonus 1: Tracking Disruptor effect and Energy Neut range.
Bonus 2: Armor resists.

Half and half missile/turret slots.

Give it a _huge_ drone bay, and good natural cap stats.

Exiled One
Amarr
Posted - 2006.10.27 00:25:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Exiled One on 27/10/2006 00:25:36
Originally by: Ithildin
First of all, if Amarr get a drone boat I will lose exactly zero skill points. I'm Gallente AND Amarr specialized. I got laser specialization prior to hybrid specialization. My first interceptor was a Crusader, my second a Malediction. My three most used ships are in order: Taranis, Megathron, Vengeance.
I'm not anti-Amarr. I use them myself.

Now that that is done, you should all know that the reason Amarr has the Arbitrator is a one-off. It is merely happenstance, and the devs pursuit of the generic that's been going on for a few years, that has the Arbitrator similar to the Vexor in drone power. I'm old enough to tell the story of when the Thorax was the drone cruiser and the Arbitrator had less than half it's drone bay.
Originally, Minmatar were intended as the secondary drone race. This is apparent if you also take into account the different races avarage drone bays.
That the Amarr recons are also drone cruisers is a very sad happenstance and completely due to them having the bonuses of their base hulls than anything the "fluff" would say.

That aside, that Amarr should have drone ships is fine as long as game balance also adheres to the game "fluff". The "fluff" clearly states that Gallente invented drones, developed drones, and continue to hold drone mechanics and AI as their high-technological foothold.
By this, an Amarr ship must be weaker than a Gallente ship - in terms of drone usage - within the same class.
Now, using drones is slightly more than just the number, size, and bonus to drones, it also somewhat inherit some of the miscellaneous power of the ship itself.

In effect, introducing an Amarr ship with a +10% drone damage bonus with a drone bay larger than 120 metrics will upset the conceptual balance among the races. IF it is introduced at tier 3 when the Gallente ship is relegated to tier 1. If the situation could be reversed, it could be very well workable having an Amarr drone ship - even with the same drone bonus and drone bay as the Gallente one.

This is not about Amarr not getting a drone boat. This is about not ****ing up the backstory. This is about not ****ing up the reasons people have trained for this or that race just because people think the grass is greener at the moment.


edited Not worth it.

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.27 01:14:00 - [114]
 

Mael- don't force a shield tanking option down our throats please. While minnie have some versatility, armor tanking is far more practical on our current bs's , and cap ships. Our training and implants generally reflect this. Minnie are generally acknowledged as being more skill intensive, we don't need another whole line of stuff to take to five because someone is fixated on making sure we have 1 of everything, yet excell at nothing.

Those asking for an ac boat, I disagree. How about the typhoon gets fixed instead? An 8 arty fleet platform would fit in, but the rof needs to be switched to dmg and the shield tanking bonus needs to be switched to resists.

Thank you.


Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.10.27 01:26:00 - [115]
 

again with mael that should get +dmg bonus instead of +rof?

alpha is dead... let it rest in peace

+dmg gives less dps than rof and as arty is alredy the lowest dps long range weapons it need the bonus that gives best dps possible (rof)

+damage with +50% hps is usefull only if you are sniping nobbs in frigs Rolling Eyes

cyberdog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.10.27 02:42:00 - [116]
 

New tier 3 BS mmmm what do i think. I think the rokh is great caldari getting a rail boat is nice for them good job on that one. For the others i would have given them roles with specialized ewar ships. So each race would get kind of a scorp equivalent. Amarr tracking distruptor ship, minny target painter and gallente sensor damps. That would have mixed it up a bit and given variation on the battlefield. This is a good idea? What you guys think?

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.10.27 04:15:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
+damage with +50% hps is usefull only if you are sniping nobbs in frigs Rolling Eyes


Yeah maybe for a gate ganker. In a real fleet no.. I'll take the alpha with a dmg bonus and 5% dmg boost on 1400mm thanks.

ArrowRolling EyesQuestion stick that plz.

Thanks


Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.10.27 04:20:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.

MECTO
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2006.10.27 04:58:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Nifel
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 26/10/2006 11:05:29
About the Maelstrom (very brief)

The problems as a artillery platform

* 8 projectile turrets with no dmg bonus means its not better at alpha strikes than the apoc or any other 8-turret battleship. Needs a damage bonus to get a valuable role in fleets.



Err... it is? The tempest for example has more alphastrike than the apoc with 8x tachyons. A maxed out tempest pilot will have the equalivent of 7.5 turrets. The Maelstorm will have 8 turrets. 8 > 7.5 = QED.

yeah for a cost of 2 t2 turrets Laughing and tempest more agile too ugh

Logan Xerxes
Xerxes Security
Posted - 2006.10.27 05:39:00 - [120]
 

Edited by: Logan Xerxes on 27/10/2006 06:20:01
Originally by: HankMurphy
Edited by: HankMurphy on 26/10/2006 22:38:07
Rokh should be as equal of a sniper as temp and mega, NO better. Yeah, they wanted a sniper but why make it better than all the others? We dont have any 6 msl turret bs's or 8 midslot bs's, no one gets an equivelent to Caldari, why should Caldari get an equivelent/better ship than our best?


Got some data to back that up?


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