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BugxEarl
Amarr
Izanagi Orbital Fleet
Posted - 2006.11.26 02:05:00 - [901]
 

Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.

Nebuli
Caldari
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.26 15:51:00 - [902]
 

Originally by: BugxEarl
Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.


Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.26 17:12:00 - [903]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?


Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.

Amuko
Amarr
Reverentia
Illuminati.
Posted - 2006.11.26 19:22:00 - [904]
 

Originally by: Nebuli
Now, this is not BS but in Kali, eagle would be able to shoot @ 247km range w/o any damage penalty. You read it; there is a setup for eagle which allows it to hit at 247km without any notable penalty (well...gotta fit standard launchers instead of assault boohoo deedoo). Is that outside every other ship's range? Of course it is...does it make a huge difference? Not really.


Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nebuli
Maybe because you would need about 50 of them to even come close to insta poping a BS?


Rohk dps is not great, but it is by all means not that low. To be exact, 1 rohk has 91% of the dps of a (fully skilled) mega. Thats nothing to laugh at.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.26 21:43:00 - [905]
 

Uuups Very Happy

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2006.11.27 02:27:00 - [906]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa


Quote:
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.


How? They cannot reach it's range.

Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.

- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them
- Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.

The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.

Quote:
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).


You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.

Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.


Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Quote:
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.


And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here.
If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.

YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.

But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.
A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too.
However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.




Simple to get close to the rokhs just use a cov ops or to that are cloaked.... warp to him at your optimal and unleash h3ll total pwnage =P you get more dps and will drop the uber ranged ships that you "can't get close enough to" with relative ease.... total amount of time it takes for a decent cov ops pilot to get into position is 2 minutes crossing quite a long distance ;) You need to think out side of the box... Also a good fleet commander knows these things and will put them into practice. Superior tactics are always more worth while then numbers, kits, or ships. Always have tacklers/scouts.

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.27 02:43:00 - [907]
 

In relation to Tribunals note "in fleet fights sig radius doesn't matter..."

Well, I played around a bit with the tracking guide tool.
If you consider the different signature radi and Megathrons
given tracking bonus I came up with the following results:

transversal velocity: 250m/s (worst case, ships flying in opposite directions); ship boni at BS5
target signature radius: 500 for all except Rokh(400)
weapon signature radius: 400
ammo: 50% range bonus

range 40km chance to hit:
Rokh ~75%
Mega ~93%

range 60km chance to hit:
Rokh ~86%
Mega ~96%

range Mega opti:
Rokh ~93%
Mega ~98%

range Rokh opti:
Rokh ~97%
Mega ~10%


This is just a theoretical comparison to show that a Rokh fleet
has got it's weak point in close range fights. Of course
I have to admit that fleet fights mainly are fought at
long range. However, many of you might have experienced
how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack
is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.

Greets
Asa


Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.27 10:00:00 - [908]
 

Originally by: Asariasha
However, many of you might have experienced
how devastating an all of a sudden close ranged attack
is when your covert pilot manages to get in position.


Yes, but that is only possible by (huge) blind luck (or seeding the area with 20 cov ops pilots, but that are 20 potential BS pilots you have less) or by a dumb enemy (let's sit at this sniperspot for 10 minutes/let's reuse our old spots continuously).

It's nothing you can rely on.

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.27 11:25:00 - [909]
 

Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.

The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.

Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?

Akiman
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2006.11.27 12:34:00 - [910]
 

Originally by: Gragnor
Ancient military axiom ; he who controls the range of a fight - controls the fight. The Rohk enables you to hit and not be hit with T1 weapons. This is an immense tactical advantage in fleet combat, irrespective of the damage being done as it forces the opponent to react or die. If they cannot shoot back, they will die - there only option is to warp off.

The l33t tactic (10 Rohks against any other race)is to warp in at your 200km plus optimal while you dictor pilot drops a bubble on some poor *******. Losses - one dictor; Kills - the poor outranged, trapped fleet. Even worse if they have a carrier in the front line that gets jammed by an uber skilled scorpion pilot. Imagine the look on his face when he realises he is bubbled and and a fleet on inty's is inbound to drop 50 fighters on him.

Caldari fleet operations - the new I Win button in Fleet operations. Why fly anything else?


simple and true...but nooooo it doesnt make uber dps so it suxxxxxx...dpsdpspdpspdpspdps thats all matters aint it?
and dont give more dps to hype too...becouse its a close range ship...it can warp away anytime anyway(!)

General Novartic
Minmatar
The Taining corp
Knights Of the Southerncross
Posted - 2006.11.27 13:00:00 - [911]
 

humm, how intresting..


Anyways. Who here would be able to get the maelstrom BPO and make a maelstrom up for me. :D Please start offers. Lowest Bid one gets to make it for me.

Azuse
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.27 15:37:00 - [912]
 

Same with the bs, the rokh is a superb sniper at 250/300km, youll also find it fantastic at 12km with blasters and full tank. Compair this with the hyperion, again its a decent sniper, better than the thron if you fit right (oh the irony) it losses 25m drone space (so only 4 heavys vs. thorns 5) it also gain an extra turret, which we all love because it also has the throns grid and fitting 7 turret on that is almost impossible without an rcu i.e compramising tank so to compensate you take away 2 lows making it harder to fit, genius. So its got a rep bonus, great so we fit 2 reps and have 4 slots to tank, plus our rcus, and the iceing on the cake of course is that 8 guns leaves no room for nos (and a blaster, no matter how deluded the piolt is, wont run on boosters alone if its using hardeners and theres not much options with those lows). p.s. the thorns still outdammages it, and with these rigs plus 2 additional lows it also out tanks it now.

So in summary weve got now ships tha dont know what therye ment to be, cost 50 mil more (80 if the insurace is accurate) and do less dammage across all the races, exept caldari which are now the ranged race with the best blasters.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.29 15:57:00 - [913]
 

I personally don't care anymore.

My Rokh will be in my hanger by the end of the week fitted with tech 2 425s for fleet combat. I just feel sorry for the other people who wasted their time training something besides hybrids to tech 2.

Unuthiel
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2006.11.29 21:59:00 - [914]
 

Originally by: Raste
T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.




Exactly. The devs nerf T2 sniping ammo, then give the Caldari a ship that outranges T2 sniper setups with *T1* guns and ammo. That's just ridiculous.

Skeltek
Caldari
Asgard Schiffswerften
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.12.01 04:16:00 - [915]
 

Its amusing to see you discuss here.
Two fleets trying to outrange each other: both wait at safespot for the other one to warp to a gate, stay there outside of jumprange and wait 15 minutes for your covert to get in a good angle and position.

ANY Fleetcommander/Allianceleader boring his Fleet to death by not getting any good engagement at all for hours, will notice his participationnumbers dropping pretty much in the long term.

The times when you could outrange an uncoordinated noob-fleet at some gate providing you an easy target without them warping off are definitly over.


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