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Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:46:00 - [871]
 

Originally by: Amy Wang

Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.

A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range.
And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.

I will trade anytime range for damage bonus. Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.

Shin Mai
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:01:00 - [872]
 

why not make the hyperion an blastership without drones and a good bonus, this will be different to the mega, and without drones it can have a bit more grid and a good bonus and it is still not overpowered Rolling Eyes

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:30:00 - [873]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.


When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.

0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.24 12:46:00 - [874]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Zixxa
Damage bonus is useful always, range bonus only sometimes.


When your enemy outranges you a damage bonus is pretty useless.

0 dps * 1.25 -> 0 dps

Yes, you are right. In this case damage bonus useless. But it is rare situation. Because you need that ALL or MOST of ships were outranged with ANY Ammo type. And it need to enemy sniper fleet HAVE great alpha-strike(Rokh has worst BS alfa-strike in Eve, except Raven and Scorp and Domi, and with long ranged rail ammo things are even worse for Rokh).
And even if this situation will occur, enemy fleet with bonus damage just warp out and try to win distance using covert ships. Anyway sniper fleet will loose more.

Btw, for what hell Rokh need this famous resistance bonus being so ultimate sniper? Oxymoron...

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.24 13:22:00 - [875]
 

Exept it isn't that easy.
The rohk has for fleetbattles 2 advantages:

- t2 longrange with t1 ammo
For all other BSs if you only have t1 guns you are not able to participate when you need sniping distances. Which happens in fleetbattles regulary. Rohk pilots can.
No, with their t1 guns & ammo they won't do as much dps as other BSs with t2 ammo, but 50% of other ships dps is still preferable with 0% of their dps.

- surgical strikes with t2 ammo
In a BS blob vs BS blob slugfest rohks won't be THAT effective, yes, but thats not everything fleet combat is about.
Vitally important for any fleet are support ships. Interdictors, intys, EW cruisers,... The more effective fleets in EVE usualyl have a good amount of theses with them (i.e. BOB). Rohks with t2 ammo will be perfect to take these out. Before the real battle starts a smart fleet comamnder will use t2 fitted rohks to warp to a 250k sniper spot, kill 4-5 support ships & warp out. Repeat. Once you have enough rohks you can do the same thing against enemy BSs (scorpians would be prime targets there). An enemy fleet softened this way is a *much* easier target for your own main fleet to take out.

And the only counter for this are...rohks. A good deal more rohks than the other side to be specific. This is where their resistance bonus will prove extremly usefull - it makes tham a lot more durable against counterfire from enemy rohks. A lot more dureable than anything else bar other tier 3 ships. Which will be the last possible targets. So your only option to inflict on a rohk commando as many losses as they inflict on you is to have about 50% more rohks they they have.
Otherwise, as said, the enemy fleet will just kill your support ships with their rohks and then the enemy fleet + rohks + their support ships will destroy the rest of your fleet.

What we'll see is an arms race in t2 rohks for enemy fleets.

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.24 14:29:00 - [876]
 

Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.

Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.

And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.24 16:26:00 - [877]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.


Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.

Quote:
Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.


How? They cannot reach it's range.

Let's even say both fleets get the jump on each other equally often enough.

- Megas jump the rohks. Rohks get killed, but they *will* also take a good part of the megas with them
- Rohks jump the megas. Megas will get killed, with *zero* losses for the rohks. Because the megas cannot reach them.

The advantage still lies on the rohk fleet.

Quote:
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).


You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them. There is a little difference between having only the t2 fitted rohks in the other fleet being able to fire back and having every t2 fitted bs and t1 & t2 fitted rohk fireing on you.

Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.


Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Quote:
And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.


And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

And, as said said Rohks have the advantage here.
If they are encountered flatfooted they will prolly loose, but they also WILL inflict damage. And if they catch the other side flatfooted the will win without suffering *any* damage.

YOu are right in one point, though. The only counter vs rohks are not only your own rohks, having a better fleetcommander and intel so you can outmaneuvre them is another counter.

But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.
A fleet of rohks will loose if you let your corp village idiot command them with stellar tactics like "we warp to them and attack". But if you do not chosoe a good fleetcommander you deserve to die. Also, a fleet of rohks will likely loose if you face a better fleetcommander and better intel. But so will any other fleet, too.
However, if your FC actually has a brain and he and your intel are at least as good as that of the enemy the side with more rohks has a definite advantage.


Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.24 16:55:00 - [878]
 

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 24/11/2006 16:55:49
The Mael needs help plz, or just give us a comment about it Sad


Maelstrom needs help

Zixxa
Posted - 2006.11.24 16:58:00 - [879]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Advice for the future: namecalling when you run out of arguments isn't very sucessful.

You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?

Quote:
How? They cannot reach it's range.

I know few methods to get in range
Warp on covert.
Turn on MWD and close gap.
If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD.
If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.

Quote:
You cannot, because it can be fired back on. They cannot outrange the other BSs. The abas will get popped, the rohs won't.

I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead. If I can't get reasonable firepower in focus than surgical strike is useless. And you need approximately Two Rokhs to get alpha strike of one Abaddon.

Quote:
The point of sugical strikes is to be able to do them without the enemy being able to do something agaist them.

Hah. Enemy will warp out seeing only Rokhs fleet.
And everybody will knows that only situation where such fleet will be dangerous is really big distance. Do you see how you help to enemy bringing only Rokh fleet?

Quote:
Quote:
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless.


Now you are totally loosing it. Such mindless rambling only hurts your position more - if it would be still savageable. A resistance bonus helps against everything. It gives the ship 33% more effective HPs against large rails, lasers, projectiles, drones, missiles, smartbombs, doomsday weapons and rabid hamsters.

The reason it is only useful against other rohks is because nothing else can touch them if they are used correctly.

Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS?
Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it.
Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always.
Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.


Quote:
And a smart commander of a longrange rohk fleet will not allow them just that. You need a good fleet commander, t2 fitted BS and good intel for ANY effective fleet, arguing that rohks are ok because you need that to make them really effective is pretty pointless.

No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.

Quote:
But sadly this does not do anything to "balance" it. Because if you want to compare stuff you need to do it under realistic, compareable conditions.

In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die.

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.24 17:11:00 - [880]
 

Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Audri Fisher

The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!


Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.

A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range.
And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.

Oh, so as long as the range bonus forces a horrible mismatch, it is ok then?
It's ok for a cruiser to have a range bonus because my battleship can rip it a new one?
Or is is because YOUR ship no longer has the max range advantage?

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.24 18:49:00 - [881]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 18:50:08
Originally by: Zixxa
You don't like truth? You pretend to convince me that Abaddon is not uber fleet BS?


I like truth. I do not like people who try to discredit peoples point with useless chatter (propaganda, etc) instead facts.

Quote:
I know few methods to get in range
Warp on covert.
Turn on MWD and close gap.
If Rokh has no MWD(and some stupid person insist here, that MWD is not required for Rokh), than sniper fleet may close gap only with MWD.
If Rokh has MWD(as I insist), than Rokh has virtually no tank.


Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes (+ about 100 more)

You are beginning to make me doubt that you ever were in a fleetbattle.

Cov ops: the fastest, cheetah, is with gangboni and 3 local nanos about 600 m/s fast. Time for it to travel the ~70 km to give your fleet a warpin point: 2 minutes. Sorry, battle is over.

MWDing BSs: Without any additional speedmods (which they won't have in a fleetbattle) they will have speeds between 1000-1500 m/s. So it will take them 45-70 secs to get into range. During which time they are EVEN BETTER targets for the rohks. Which then can also simply warp to a new sniperspot.

Seriously, those 2 options are so utterly, totally DUMB I have no real words for it.

Quote:
I can. I will focus fire to kill you and you will be dead.


And you will focus fire a group of rohks which is sitting at 250k from you killing your support and weaker BS how exactly?

Quote:
Are you smart enough to understand that resistance bonus in your picture is COMPLETELY USELESS?
Rokh vs any BS. Rokh does not need resistance, because any BS cannot hit it.
Rokh vs Rokh. Rokh does not need resistance, because we have the same ships. Consequently we have TIE always.
Ergo, resistance bonus of Rokh is ABSOLUTELY USELESS in picture you presented.



Exept they will NOT shoot on the enemy Rohks as I have said multiple times already. Why waste time by shooting at them when they can use it to really weaken the enemy fleet by instapopping their support and the BSs with a weak tank (scorps, geddons, etc).

When the t2 rohks on both sides have grow enough that they can kil leach other in a relatively short time then they will focus first on those, of cource.
But even there it helps the rohks. It's a 33% hp increase. This can be the difference between being able to warp out when 10 other rohks focus fire on you or exploding.
It does not give them an advantage vs an other group of rohks of cource, but that does not mean it is useless.

Quote:
No. Range bonus is difficult to get and easy to loose.


Ah, I love when a person is arguments and examples to strengthen a statement of theirs.

Try it sometimes. Even brutor reactor slaves can say "this is so". Saying WHY it is so is the key, though.

Quote:
In realistic situation you have lag, imcompetent commanders, stupid pilots and lack of intel. Any damage dealing fleet may survive this, but fleet, with the only weapon - additional range, will die.


All these things effect "damage dealing" fleets just as badly as they effect sniper fleets.

Lag - no real difference there. Unless you would care to explain why a fleet of lets say megas would be less effected there than a fleet of rohks.
Bad FCs - again, same thing. Both fleets have to warp to bookmarks. Where is the difference?
Stupid pilots - unless they are the FC or the intel they are usually only causing their own death.
Lack of intel - ok, a fleet of rohks jumps thorugh a gate which is bubbled and a fleet of megas sits 150km away. Fleet of rohks kills half the mega fleet & dies. A fleet of megas jumps through a gate, bubbled, fleet of rohks 250km away, mega fleet dies without being able to kill a single rohk *because they are out of range*. How exactly does it favour the damage fleet there?

Succoros
Caldari
The Nest
Posted - 2006.11.24 19:09:00 - [882]
 

Aramendel I think you should just let this one go ugh

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.24 20:14:00 - [883]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 24/11/2006 20:15:00
Yeah please stop arguing with that brick wall. Maybe let the mods know about the continued trolling and ranting too, it IS against the rules...

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.24 21:48:00 - [884]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 24/11/2006 21:49:42
Ok ok, sorry Razz

It's too late for any changes anyway, time will tell.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.24 23:56:00 - [885]
 

Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS Wink. In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!

sandshark
LFC
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.25 06:07:00 - [886]
 

If your hostile rokh is at 250k, just move 1k in the other direction, best jammers around!

I do have to agree though that i'm thinking of abbandoning my gallente roots and just go for caldari since they have it all anyways, best NPC, sniper (well at least now with kali they will...), sniping cruiser (210k range!!!) and scorp and rook are getting better jamming bonusses too. (so they are STILL the pwn in EW)

Lately when any new player asks me what to race to choose i just want to point 'm to caldari.
How many of you wouldn't take caldari now if they would start over?

Its not really the range itself that bothers me, its how cheaply it can be in a rokh.
A fitting for a sniping megathron can go up to 200M isk + the ship itself.
Any rokh pilot can go fly to empire, buy a 425mm T1 rail BPO research it a tad, and there you go, fleetships cheap as dirt!


And don't even get me started on the hyperion Rolling Eyes

ShadowlordUK
Portal Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.25 09:30:00 - [887]
 

Edited by: ShadowlordUK on 25/11/2006 09:31:19
The Rokh is an insanely good bs... simple fact.

The way you can tell is you think of a raven and then add a STRONGER tank, more fittings and more armor etc... Confused

If you want to complain about dmg output... try fitting a full set of neutron blasters with tech 2 ammo and tell me if the dmg still sucks....

The Rokh is an awesome ship BOTH at very long and very short ranges.

Personally i have long ago accepted that the gms will always give the caldari the edge in eve combat...

So I trained caldari like the other mass of vets.

As far as the abaddon is concerned... i will still use it.. hell its a geddon with an extra turret point and it looks cool.. But tbh any ship that needs TWO large cap injectors fitted and running continuously to function really sucks for anything more then rat huting... and even then you certainly couldnt do anything more then belt rat hunting... Not exactly what you'd expect from a tier 3 bs lol Rolling Eyes

I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.

P.S. BTW thought i should add, for most ships a range bonus is actually a better bonus then dmg because it allows you to use more dmging ammo types... hence a range bonus is actually a range AND damage bonus in most situations.. Rolling Eyes

Plutoinum
Mercenaries of Andosia
Veritas Immortalis
Posted - 2006.11.25 11:40:00 - [888]
 

Edited by: Plutoinum on 25/11/2006 12:27:03


Originally by: Tribunal
Just be like me and start your training on Caldari BS Wink. In about 5 months the optimal bonus will be nerfed, but until then have fun with the broken bonus!

I've got him almost ready, caldari-bs V, rapid-firing-5, large rail-spec-3 at the moment, but if fleetbattles turn out to become rokh parties, where tech-1 newbies shoot at 245km, then no fleet combat for me anymore.

I'm minmatar and want to fly tempest and stuff and I think with BS V and large-tech-2 projectiles and a fitting for 100mil+ isk the least thing I deserve is getting outgunned by tech-1 caldari newbies at 240km with tech-1 ammo. Wink

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.25 12:29:00 - [889]
 

I saw the writing on this wall a while back. Cal BS level 5 two days after patch. Already have the gunnery support skills, just need to work up to T2 Rails.


Lucre
STK Scientific
Black-Out
Posted - 2006.11.25 12:54:00 - [890]
 

Originally by: ShadowlordUK
I understand that the abbaddon needed a balancing factor... and for some strange reason they chose cap... but tbh as time will tell... they over did it. Amarr needs SOME cap bonus otherwise it just doesnt work.



Amarr ships used to have a 5% per level cap bonus. This wasn't enough, so Amarr pilots went around with railguns and projectiles fitted (or occasionally mixed batteries of lasers and rails). So they changed the bonus to 10% to make lasers worth using again.

Now they introduce an Amarr gunship with ZERO cap bonus.

How come we can all see what's going to happen (again), but Tux can't?

Felxia
SkottE Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.25 13:33:00 - [891]
 

I'm fed up with the ne whyperion trying to be a blaster boat and the mega trying to be a sniper boat, they both fit the onther ones roles much better. I'll explain.

Megathron
7x Turrut Slots
4x Mid Slots
7x Low Slots

Megathron is supposed ot be a fleet ship, the bonuses suite the megathron, damage and tracking, fair enough. However I'D Like the megathron to have and extra mid and loose a slow slot if I was to have a "fleet" combat ship. Why? The low slt is irrelevent in fleet combat. The only thing you need in fleets is tracking, damage and a mix of ECM or whatever, plus speed boost and sensor boosters.

About the turrut slots, a blasterboat normally has a nos on, depends on what type of setup the person is trying to achive, the only reason for an extra gun on a blasterboar is damage over survivability. However the mega suites a blasterboat alot more because of it's low slots, they are NEEDED on a blasterboat.

Hyperion
8x Turrut Slots
5x Mid Slots
6x Low Slots

There is no real reason why you should pick the megathron over the hyperion when it comes ot fleet combat. The extra turrut gives a 12.5% dps increase. The tracking bonues is not that important as the fith midslot can handle a tracking computer or 2. In fleet combat the only important factor is getting asmuch damage to the other fleet as possible. With the mid slots ECM is nice, damps etc. FULL rack of 425mm Railgun II. The tracking bonues on the megathron wins with 7.5% over 1 tracking computer II that could be fitted in the hyperions extra midslot, which isn't much in a fleet fight as your shooting battleships. You also have an icreased cpu to paly with ECM modules.

The tanking bonues on the hyperion kind of forces it to tank meaning (imo) at least 2 reps, leaving a crappy 4 slots for damage control/plates/hardners etc. If this bonues was changed to something else t osomething that I would prefer resistence bonuses it would not force everyone to tank as the game on the test server is, "let's see who can fit the most nos and see who has the biggest tank game". I'm not trying to bring gank setups into the picture again however 1v1's that go on for at least 10 min, wtf?

The hyperions mid slot in a blaster type boat would be fitted with ECM, is this what ccp wants. Even though this patch will nerf ECM it still works as I've found out.

Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.25 13:42:00 - [892]
 

Originally by: Zixxa
Please, Amarr, no more propaganda. You had whined for Best Fleet BS for you and you have got it. Abaddon has now best alpha-strike and best med-long range DPS. Absolutely best fleet BS. Hands down.

Now you are mendaciously complimenting to Rokh. To hide how uber is Abaddon.

Fleet of Rokhs! Big deal. Fleet of Megas with good commander trash this fleet of rokhs.
Surgical strike! Big deal. I could do surgical strike with much more powerful Abaddon and few additional modules(rigs).
Resistance bonus! Laughful. It must help Rokh against Rokh! Because against other BS it is useless. Remove this bonus at all and give it as present to Tux team. You will see NO DIFFERENCE for Rokh.

And to be effective Rokh need AT LEAST
a) smart fleet commander
b) big quantity of Rokhs with t2 large hybrid pilots
c) effective intel
Otherwise Rokh fleet will be trashed by usual Tempests and Apocs.
But even a), b) c) will not guarantee win, because smart commander of closer range fleet will regroup, reintel and reattack from the valid distance giving to Rokh fleet MORE damage, than Rokh fleet initially.
Rock is best in fleet because with t2 weapons it's about the same as lets say, a t2 rail mega. As you get longer range you can put in more powerful ammo. Wtih t2 guns, the rokh wil lbe a scary sight.Confused

As please stop your bull**** propaganda that caldari sucks and rip raven and all that. Noone will listen to you as your a simple troll. Explain facts and figures in a calm way. It's the only way you'll ever get to change anything.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2006.11.25 15:51:00 - [893]
 

The Maelstrom´s tanking bonus is nearly worthless as was pointed out in many posts above.

I doubt we will get any kind of range bonus and another damage bonus would be overpowered indeed.

The easiest and fairest variant would be a percent based shield resistance bonus, same as Rohk gets. This would also been boring so people had the idea of a shield HP bonus.

How much should this bonus be?

A 5%/lvl resist bonus equals a effective 33,33% HP increase.

See here:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=431328

So assuming 10k base shield a 7,5 % shield bonus would leave the Mael with 13,75k shield and the Rohk with 13,33k effetive shield.

Sound fair on the first look, BUT the Mael´s bonus is only an additional buffer and indirectly increases the passive recharge rate while the Rohk´s bonus practically does the same PLUS makes an active tank more effective also.

So 7,5 % is not enough, 10% or even 12,5% would be fair.

Change Maelstrom boost bonus to 10%/12,5% shield HP per lvl to make it a usefull fleet ship that it was meant to be!

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2006.11.25 17:02:00 - [894]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.


It might be well executed, but the Rokh stands out from the crowd in a very important aspect. The range bonus isn't truly balanced, because it is quite decisive and the other races lack a ship with comparable use. I don't say, give all the races a ship with a range bonus. That would be boring, obviously. But a bonus that makes them equally useful. Unfortunately now, that's a problem, since most fleet combat essentially is about range and sniper warfare.
So when it comes to fleet combat, you're stuck with the range bonus - or changing fleet warfare.

Well, ok maybe leave the Rokh the way it is, as it's a well rounded concept, but perhaps reduce the range bonus to 7,5% or 5%. Or make up for the discrepancies with some intelligent balancing.
For example the range bonus would be less decisive if ships were generally faster, so they could close in.
One problem might be - ship range and damage exploded, but the ships' speed basically stayed the same.

In principle I agree with Tribunal. Two bonuses leave little room for well rounded combinations. Especially since almost all ships get a damage bonus..
Therefore, sticking with two of them, the bonuses have to be equally useful. That's pretty hard, and you can't really stick to the 5% scheme.

Just did a quick check, and in fact the 50% rage bonus at BS5 is superior to a 25% dmg bonus with regard to fleet ops. At least if it stays the way it is right now.
The reason is, you can't by far compensate it as easily.
Two magnetic field stabilizer II give a 47% dmg boost.
Three tracking computer II give 41% range bonus. And those are active.
Thus at the same range with similar fitting constrains the Rokh does more damage.
It does less max dmg, sure, but that doesn't count in long range sniper warfare, and the difference is too big.
7,5% range bonus and an overall speed boost (probably decreased AB/MWD bonus) might make averything a lot more practicable.

well, my 2 cent

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.25 17:52:00 - [895]
 

1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured
at opti range of ships without range bonus.
2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships
will overdamage it when they reach their opti.
3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed
shots.
4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but
support has still the option to warp out because of
Rokhs' low alpha strike.
5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering
for railgun ships.
-------------------------
All non fleetOP Rokh setups are situational and in most of
the times you will be able to escape.
And for Gatecamping - the Rokh may engage at very high ranges,
but a Mega/Pest will do this job much better due to
higher alpha strike needed to plop your targets faster.
Even though....gatecamping will be much lesser due to
warp-to-0km.


The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.25 18:54:00 - [896]
 

I couldn't really care less about the Rokh and I'm certainly not pushing Railguns or Caldari Battleship for it, cause it'll get nerft once they realize how utterly broken it is and how they reduced every other races bs to "Support"

Lisa Run
Posted - 2006.11.25 19:04:00 - [897]
 

Edited by: Lisa Run on 25/11/2006 21:20:25
Edited by: Lisa Run on 25/11/2006 19:05:20
Originally by: Asariasha

3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed
shots.




Rokh gets more range out of a given ammo, it can use a more damaging ammo to achieve a certain range. So the rokh can convert it's opti-range bonus into a damage bonus.

And since you mentioned tracking: If the rokh can use tech-1 ammo for all ranges and the other ships need to use tech-2 ammo, then the ships with tech-2 ammo are reduced to 1/4th tracking. ( Except the modifier changes in Kali ).
Ok, doesn't matter, when BS snipe eachother, but it makes a difference with incoming ceptors for example. 4 times better tracking = you can hit interceptors with 4-times higher transversal speed at a given range ofc.


Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.25 19:29:00 - [898]
 

I see your D2 tag, but have you ever been in a fleet battle? I'm only asking because I am seeing a whole bunch of signs that you are very inexperienced with how fleet combat goes.

Originally by: Asariasha
1) The standart long-range fleet combat will be measured
at opti range of ships without range bonus.


Um? Now why would a fleet consisting of mostly Rokhs start off combat at a range that doesn't take advantage of their optimal bonus?

Quote:
2) The Rokh is more powerful when fights begin outside of standart long-range fleet combat while all other ships
will overdamage it when they reach their opti.


And how are they going to reach their optimal again? MWD to the rokhs? Laughing Or perhaps the non-Rokh fleet has a cov-ops that can instantly appear on the Rokh fleet!

Quote:
3) Rokh has no tracking bonus/dmg bonus to compensate missed shots.

You don't need a tracking bonus in a long ranged fleet battle. Even if, in a magical land far, far away, tracking was a big issue in long ranged fleet battles I'm sure that you could find a spot for a tracking computer in your 6 mid slots.

Quote:
4) Rokh might be used to disable enemies support, but
support has still the option to warp out because of
Rokhs' low alpha strike.


Or they might be used to kill the other fleets battleships, you know, the battleships that can't shoot back because the Rokhs are out of range
Quote:
5) Rokh follows the line of Caldari Spaceship Engineering
for railgun ships.


Unbalanced bonuses are now ok if they follow the "line" of ships before it. I will have to remember that.

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.25 20:19:00 - [899]
 

Revelations release does not mean that there will only
be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all
players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have
to train some skills for a long long time considering
that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns.
So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with
the rest of the fleet.

Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at
long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted.
Many engagements are won just because of a good covert
pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the
hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with
magic.

Also you should take in consideration that as usual the
Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius.
Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a
Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m.
And exactly this is the point when tracking comes into
the game, especially when the opposing fleets movement
cause higher transversal speeds.
Of course you can fit tracking comps, and Im really
interested on how they will effect the above mentioned
fact.

And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about the
other Caldari ships which had these boni all the time.
But now that some players mention hey, opti range isnt
that bad, everybody comes out and cries for a nerf bat
even without taking all pros & cons in consideration.
Revelations itself will change the whole gameplay and
yet too many people stick to old gameplay and tend not
to view on ships out of different perspectives.

And yes, I have already been in fleet battles, but I
must add that I had a longer break.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.25 21:28:00 - [900]
 

Originally by: Asariasha
Revelations release does not mean that there will only
be Rokhs out there as only battleship and even if all
players in EvE wanted to switch to Rokh they would have
to train some skills for a long long time considering
that Amarr/Minmatar players usually do not fit Railguns.
So the Rokhs we will see at first will have to stay with
the rest of the fleet.


There have been threads in IAC boards saying that people need to train up for the Rokh for months now. The hardcore PvPers that take part in fleet battles have it trained for it already, at least the ones that have payed attention.

Let me also point out that it takes MUCH less time to train a Rokh up to shoot outside of everyother ships range, even with those ships using tech 2 ammo. A Rokh does not require tech 2 guns to outrange every other ship.

Quote:
Also fleet combat does not mean that you always fight at
long range where tracking isn't a big issue as you noted.
Many engagements are won just because of a good covert
pilot managing to give his fleet a good warp in to the
hostile fleet for close range - has nothing to do with
magic.


The only time fleet combat occurs at mid to short range is when a fleet has to hurry to do something or someone screws up.

Getting a cov-ops onto another fleet is not that easy, because fleets don't sit in one spot for long. If a fleet has to rely on a cov-ops to win a fleet battle then I will bet large sums of isk that, that is a dead fleet.

Quote:
should take in consideration that as usual the
Rokh as Caldari ship has got the biggest signature radius.
Last screenshot I saw (500m Rokh) while for example a
Megathron has only 400m or a Tempest with only 340m.


A sig radius does not matter in a fleet fight between battleships. A Pest will pop just as fast as a Rohk.

Quote:
And about unbalanced bonus - no one cared about theother Caldari ships which had these boni all the time.

Do the other ships optimal bonus put their range outside of every other ship's range in the game? The answer is no, so no one had a big problem with them.


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