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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2006.11.22 09:35:00 - [841]
 

Originally by: BillyBong2
For the Abaddon, what about using Pulses, tracking and plates. MWD, Webber,Tracking?

Use the resists to survive up close. Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.



Fitting for close range in large battles is just asking to get "kitted" inside an interdictor bubble, and get sniped from afar. Better to fit for long range and still be marginally effective in close.

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.22 12:31:00 - [842]
 

I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.22 12:45:00 - [843]
 

Edited by: Asariasha on 22/11/2006 12:46:31
Oh lol and there comes the next whine about a BS sized Ferox
called Rokh. Well Im waiting for the next nerfbat applied onto
Caldari due to soooo much overpowered ships. Found any ironicism?

If you want to beat a Rokh, just fit a AC setup and go for
closerange as a Cyclone Pilot does with Ferox guys.

The Armin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.22 15:12:00 - [844]
 

wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)

Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.22 16:04:00 - [845]
 

Originally by: The Armin
wts: all my apocs. The Abaddon is the only bs ill use in fleet ever again ;)


...because...?

LC Sulla
Caldari
House Mekarae
Posted - 2006.11.22 16:08:00 - [846]
 

Originally by: Gragnor
I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

How the hell the devs are able to wade through all this crap I'll never know...

How about telling us EXACTLY what you had in your mids and lows (as well as your gunnery skills). What was your optimal range and tracking? Was your oppenent too close or have too high a transveral? Did you have t2 shield hardners, t2 shield boost amp?? Did you have damage mods in your lows (I mean the right ones for arbies Rolling Eyes )... Were you equally matched in skill with your opponent or are you a noob with 2m sp while he/she has 30m sp.

A loss in combat is not sudden proof that one ship type owns another.

Raste
Bulgarian Mafia Squad
Sons of Tangra
Posted - 2006.11.22 16:10:00 - [847]
 

Get rid of the Rokh range bonus. T2 snipers get range nerfed, and in the same motion Caldari get a range bonus on a sniping ship? Give me a break.

Change the shield boost bonus to a damage bonus on the Mael. Shield boost is useless for fleet.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.22 17:40:00 - [848]
 

How about just mixing all the Battleships up a bit:

Caldari: Fine as is.

Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.

Minmatar: Typhoon gets one or two more missile slots (+25m³ dronebay if only +1 missile), and the turret bonus is changed to a painter one (cheap tier1 EW BS). Maelstrom becomes, well, I don't know, but it needs to be powerful enough to justify the tier3 price tag.

Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.22 21:45:00 - [849]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.


No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.

Thnx.

Aphotic Raven
Gallente
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.23 01:38:00 - [850]
 

Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:43:54
Edited by: Aphotic Raven on 23/11/2006 01:41:56
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Gallente: Dominix becomes the new Tier3 ship (with tier3 HPs), and the Hyperion goes SD-boat and becomes tier1 (with tier1 HPs). This would both give Gallente a cheap EW BS like the scorp, and make the exceptionally powerful Dominix really expensive.

Quote:

No, the dominix is the uglyest ship game, make *that* the lame-o EW boat, and leave the hyperion (best looking bs in game by miles) as a non-lame combat ship.

Thnx.


Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered its just not ****house. Again, for all you blaster sports fans *****ing about the dominix, it gets about 11.5k PG.

3 heavy nos = 6k
2 LAR = 4k
100MN AB = 0.5k?
1600mm plate = 0.5k

enjoy that last 500pg, mount some 150mm rails and wtfpwn a mega... sure...
THATS why domi pilots use ecm, they have left over CPU for putting cool stuff on.... frigate/cruiser size cool stuff... hurray.

Hyperion on sisi enjoys about 17k PG i believe (i may be wrong)...
People need to learn to fit nos on ships that need it... ******s...
Domi is balanced, ECM was overpowered, thats gone now, congratulations whingers.
Now ISK and numbers are all that wins a fight, go on and whinge for a NOS nerf too just to ensure that you always win if you have the bigger shinier hunk of blastercrap.

Seriously fly a dominix and then jump in a hype for a day and stfu.

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2006.11.23 02:52:00 - [851]
 

Originally by: Gragnor
I want to report a crime.

I was just on Sisi and took on a Rohk, fitted with torpedoes at about 80km range. I was fitted with an XL SB plus 8 1400mm T1 arties with carbonised lead. I got WTFBBQPWNed, nothing new in that. The horror was watching my much vaunted leet alpha strike ARTY FAIL TO DO ANY DAMAGE GREATER THAN 80 on a single battery volley within OPTIMAL RANGE.

As for tanking - yeah - that's really really cool - I was out of cap with 2 minutes.

CCP; this is not applying the nerfbat - this is the destruction of Minmitar as a viable race to play Eve with in Fleet combat. You have some game balancing to do - either nerf the Rohk or fundamentally reconsider your position on artillery (admit you were wrong and reintroduce long range OMGWTFBBQ alpha strike).


You know its funny cus i was using a rokh with 8x 425mm's and got wtfpwnbbqfishsticks by the new tier 3 matari ship does that mean they need to be nerfed... no not really and btw i never made it past his shields in optimal with antimatter ammo. I also have 7mil sp in gunnery was t1 vs t1 and i never took more then 25% of his shields ;) Just rethink ur kit.

Ather Ialeas
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2006.11.23 06:57:00 - [852]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.


If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.

erConte
Gallente
Iussum Rosae Crucis
Posted - 2006.11.23 08:14:00 - [853]
 

Just did my first (fast) tour on test server... wow, Hyperion capacitor is more sucking than I was thinking Evil or Very Mad

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.23 11:27:00 - [854]
 

Originally by: Ather Ialeas

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.


ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.

Originally by: Ather Ialeas

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way


for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.23 11:44:00 - [855]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ather Ialeas

If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.


ah so its ok that our tier 3 bs is nothing but a slightly better version of tier1/2 because we can always train for another race. didnt think of that.

He's saying that, regardless of how the Amarr line up looks like, drones are a Gallentean forté, and if one wishes to excel at drones one should train for Gallente. (Although personally, I think it's OK to add drone ships to other races as long as Gallente ships are *better* drone ships - which incidentally has nothing to do with cost)

Quote:
Originally by: Ather Ialeas

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way


for t1 you may want to have a look at the inquisitor, arbitrator, harbinger and geddon.


Those ships are:
Missile ship, drone and EW ship, laser ship, laser ship.

There are neat ways to fit it all in without upsetting racial preferences, etc. but I don't think CCP want me to tamper with their game balance, considering I'd start at the root and overhaul the game Razz

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.23 11:51:00 - [856]
 

Originally by: Ather Ialeas
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Amarr: Geddon is reworked into a large Arbitrator (cheap tier1 EW BS), and Abaddon stays as is, maybe with a bit more cap so it can tank AND gank at least for a short time. Nothing wrong with that on a 150+ mil ship imho.


If you want drones, train Gallente bs lvl1. Doesn't really take long at all assuming you have learning skills.

Drones are not the Amarrian way. Missiles are not the Amarrian way (Khanid is different but hey, they're T2). Lasers and armortanking are the Amarrian way. It's one-dimensional but it's what the entire race is all about so stick to it or go multiracial with your skills.


I already fly all races and use all weapons, thank you. It is just that I (obviously) like diversity and consider the singleminded 'Amarr way' pretty ******ed. Adding a ship that does the same thing as two others we already have goes 100% against what I think makes EVE great.

There really is not so much of a problem with EANs and lasers, there is a problem with common Amarr attitiude towards possible solutions for their problem.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.23 11:55:00 - [857]
 

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 23/11/2006 11:56:13
Originally by: Aphotic Raven

Sigh. Dominix isnt overpowered [...]


Who said Domi was overpowered? I said it is very powerful which noone with a clue can honestly deny. So selfish reasons from Domi pilots put aside, what would be so bad about the price tag reflecting that?

And yeah, I would also agree with giving the tier3 drone boat the sexy Hype model, and the tier1 SD boat the buttugly Dominix model.

Shin Mai
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.23 13:46:00 - [858]
 

u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:10:00 - [859]
 

Originally by: Shin Mai
u cant change a ship from t1 to t3... but let the hyperion as it is, at its first come out with a 5% mwd bonus and turrent bonus, a good blasterboat... and and if u want to use ewf play caldari ;)


Right, I cannot. But Tux could Razz
All it takes is switching the HP amount, required skill, model, resource reqs and ship bonuses of the current Hype and the current Domi. Then the old Domi is tier3 and the new Hype is tier1.
Not that I think this has more than a snowball's chance in hell of happening though.

Shin Mai
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:14:00 - [860]
 

dont think so, because domis price becomes tripled, and domi is still really good, and gallente could need a fast blasterboat...

Menf
Seraphin Technologies
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2006.11.23 14:59:00 - [861]
 

its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with MissiLesbonus
I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..

i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missiLesbonus...but this is really S***

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.23 16:39:00 - [862]
 

Originally by: Menf
its a real shame that caldari didnt got a Tier3 BS with MissiLesbonus
I have no gunneryskills(except the ones i need to fly a capital ship) and now i got a ship that is no option for me..

i had no problem with this if theyre where an second Tier 3 BS with missiLesbonus...but this is really S***

Aside from the fact that they made a duplicate blaster ship for Gallente, how would you make a tier 3 Caldari battleship with missiles without usurping the Raven?

Shin Mai
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.23 16:44:00 - [863]
 

the hyp should be a real blasterboat, maybe with a malus on range, and mega can then used as sniper or as blaster too, but not that well...

oh and anyone knows if there are t3 faction bs??

Ammon Ishar
Lethal Corp
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:20:00 - [864]
 

please do something with maelstrom! it's absolutely useless

and i can't understand one thing - why Caldari (great missiles specialists), have best sniping battle for a fleets?

keepiru
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2006.11.23 19:26:00 - [865]
 

Because caldari are also supposed to be the best snipers.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2006.11.23 20:07:00 - [866]
 

I cant believe they havent changed the Maelstorm boost bonus to sth useful yet.

First the ship´s description said it was meant to be a fleet BS.
Then it got that useless boost bonus which is admittedly not usful for that purpose.
Tux admitted it plus the Caldari Railgun platforms on e had that bonus and it got changed to plain resists because....exactly, because it wasnt useful!)

Now the Maelstorms description says sth about versatility? So instead of changing the bonus so the ship can live up to its description you change the ship´s purpose? Very clever indeed.

So what do we get with the Maelstorm in its current state:

- Fleet BS ?
Nope, since you can ignore the 2nd bonus for that purpose as if it wasnt even there we have basically a tempest with slighty highter damage (8 guns vs 7,5 effective guns) and hp BUT that comes for a way bigger price (baseprice of the ships plus even worse 2 more Artys and we all know how expensive t2 artys are nowadays).
Nobody in his right mind or without huge piles of spare money will use it over the tempest for fleet duty, fact.

- Mission runner:
This might actually work. Better tank then the raven but a raven is still way better for that job (not to mention its faction versions), even with a lot less skillpoints.

- Short range boat:
No way. Tempest and Phoon both beat it terms of dps or utility (nos or siege in missile slots) while being much faster and cheaper.

So with its current boost bonus the Maelstorm is not worth using over the other minni BS or any other BS for that matter, its broken, underpowered and really a shame, especially since the decent ship minnies got with revelations, the Hurricane, got that unecessary nerf.


Change the boost bonus per level to sth useful like:

- +5% Shield Resists (boring but useful)

- +7,5% Shield hp (useful and unique, maybe 10% even)

- + 10% falloff (does not mean AC boat! it will help artys more then you think, because they are more often used in their falloff in mixed fleet because they are the shortest range compared to rails and beams, a AC Mael would be possible but not too good because of its high mass and slow speed)

- +10% optimal range (artys have the shortest range of all long range weapon systems so they deserve a ship based range bonus much more then a rail platform like the Rohk)

All these bonuses would make the Maelstorm into what it was intended to be: A Fleet BS worth using.

Dont leave it as it is now, would be a shame to waste that nice ship model for sth that is not worth flying...

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.24 00:22:00 - [867]
 

the maelstrom really needs some help, neither as ac or arty ship is thing worth flying in 95% of the time


redesign it plz SadSad

Audri Fisher
Caldari
Burning Bush Enterprises
Posted - 2006.11.24 00:39:00 - [868]
 

Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.


Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.

The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.24 06:16:00 - [869]
 

Tempest out damages the Mealstrum. (Tempest 6x1200mm + 2 cruise launcher vs Mealstrum 8x1400mm)

Amy Wang
Posted - 2006.11.24 11:25:00 - [870]
 

Originally by: Audri Fisher

The moa can shoot at a range that no cruiser can hope to match, I think Samural posted a graph once that showed that an Eagle can out dps a mega at 247km + so we obviously need to nerf all caldari gunboats becuase they can shoot further than there counterparts!


Cruiser class vessels with range bonus, even a double one are not really a problem because while no cruiser can match their range at least battleships can.

A battleship with a range bonus (especially a railgun one as rails have the highest range already) however is unbalanced because nothing can match its range.
And that is the reason why the Rohk is so problematic in my eyes.


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