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Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:43:00 - [811]
 

Actually do just the opposit give all the tier 3 BS an optimal range/falloff bonus so they all can be fleet ships. Will not make them any better but range/resist means that all races will have a LR fleet ship, just that some races will have 2 or 3.


Aequitas Veritas
NibbleTek
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:15:00 - [812]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.

If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.


Congratulations! You won the 2nd medal this week for utterly stupid posting!

(If anyone wonders why, contact me ingame and Ill give you a medal too for outstanding stupidity)

Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:18:00 - [813]
 

rpkh is being used as a blaster boat or a nossing tanking ship on test serverRolling Eyes

Lisian Tonoko
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:18:00 - [814]
 

I'de hate to see the Hyperion be put in another role then a pure blaster boat, one of the reasons because it goes completely against its intended design(visually). Check its weapon placements, forward guns ready for rapidfire up close, with engines put in the middle to indicate superior propulsion versus its fellow shiplings.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.21 14:25:00 - [815]
 

WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? Rolling Eyes
And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)

Mirasta
Taurus Inc
Mournival Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 15:05:00 - [816]
 

The Rokh isn't working as intended, its a better blaster boat than the new blaster boat. Theres a few reasons why rokhs wont be all that for fleet combat. To make it work in a fleet to use all its bounouses all your friends need to have one, otherwise you will be operating inside your optimal range. They dont do alot of damage, as said before the Mega will still be a better rail sniper because of its greater damage out put.

The Rokh will be a great T1 sniper in its current form and allow people with fairly low gunnery skills to get in on the fleet sniping action, but at what price. if it was meant to target the newer end of the players and at a price tag of nearly 180mil theres a chance they will still choose a scorp or the time to train a mega.

The main thing the Rokh is good for now is letting caldari players do something alittle bit more intresting other than having the raven and not having to think about ppositioning and range. Personally i think it should get a nerf before it get TQ, but i cant exactly put my finger on what but i belive a T1 Fitted Blaster Rokh shouldent beable to beet a 2003 Players Blaster hyperion with 4 T2 heavy drones.

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.21 15:49:00 - [817]
 

Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with
tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob Razz

Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will
encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be
crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it
be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got
pwned by a newb? ^^

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:30:00 - [818]
 

Edited by: Tiuwaz on 21/11/2006 17:30:46
maelstrom is still a floating piece of junk without a purpose Rolling Eyes active shield boos bonus on a longrange boat is just useless, you changed those bonuses on caldari(Moa i think?) a long time ago to resist bonuses because it were useless, now you give it to minni? come on ugh

Abbadon has now same alphastrike with tachyons as tempest AND superior dps, also an abaddon with ac's does more damage and tanks better than a tempest aswell (due to being able to fit more gyros alongside the armourtank)


well geee you should have told me earlier that i should train amarrr BS if i wanted a minni ac boat, wtf really

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:49:00 - [819]
 

maelstorm shield recharge got also nerfed/balanced so is no more 1500 but 3000 as others...

before this change was quite possible to fit a decent AC (hail) + passive tank now the option is gone...

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.21 17:51:00 - [820]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? Rolling Eyes
And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)


ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored? Razz

Shinjuro
UA Industry
Red Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 20:10:00 - [821]
 

Just flew the Maelstrom for the first time, and tried almost every setup that I could. As said before, WTF is the point of putting an active shield boost bonus on a ship designed for long range? As an AC platform, it is quite pointless. I found using a few nos in the place of AC's to be more usefull.

If we are supposed to only have our Alpha strike then give it to us. Switch the ROF bonus to a Damage bonus. At least then the Maelstrom will have somewhat of a purpose. And if you refuse to do that, then at least consider switching the Boost bonus to a Overall Shield HP bonus. EVE is long overdue for a passive tanking BS.

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2006.11.21 20:58:00 - [822]
 

mmm passive tanking BS eh? you sure you want that? alongside great alpha strike damage? well well well...gimme my drake back then and we'll talk.


BillyBong2
Amarr
3OO
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2006.11.21 21:02:00 - [823]
 

For the Abaddon, what about using Pulses, tracking and plates. MWD, Webber,Tracking?

Use the resists to survive up close. Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.

Maybe I am naive, I see the Abaddon as the ship that would least likely want to be on the receiving end of a broadside from. Just my thoughts.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.21 21:12:00 - [824]
 

Originally by: Justin Cody
mmm passive tanking BS eh? you sure you want that? alongside great alpha strike damage? well well well...gimme my drake back then and we'll talk.




alpha with autocannons? Rolling Eyes

Ms Rousseau
Posted - 2006.11.21 21:52:00 - [825]
 

Originally by: Mirasta
The Rokh isn't working as intended, its a better blaster boat than the new blaster boat. Theres a few reasons why rokhs wont be all that for fleet combat. To make it work in a fleet to use all its bounouses all your friends need to have one, otherwise you will be operating inside your optimal range. They dont do alot of damage, as said before the Mega will still be a better rail sniper because of its greater damage out put.

The Rokh will be a great T1 sniper in its current form and allow people with fairly low gunnery skills to get in on the fleet sniping action, but at what price. if it was meant to target the newer end of the players and at a price tag of nearly 180mil theres a chance they will still choose a scorp or the time to train a mega.

The main thing the Rokh is good for now is letting caldari players do something alittle bit more intresting other than having the raven and not having to think about ppositioning and range. Personally i think it should get a nerf before it get TQ, but i cant exactly put my finger on what but i belive a T1 Fitted Blaster Rokh shouldent beable to beet a 2003 Players Blaster hyperion with 4 T2 heavy drones.


I think we'll see the Rokh as a weapon deployed against other snipers. With it's superior range but lower DPS it probably won't be a great countersniper in terms of kills, but it will force sniperthrons to find a new warp in point to attack. More of a thorn in the side then an omgwtfbbq'er.

If people are complaining about the Rokh then it's probably because Caldari have the most solid identity of any race in Eve. Somewhere in development the other races went schizophrenic. I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 22:46:00 - [826]
 

Originally by: BillyBong2
Instead of a Fleet 210km, why not try and get in close and really bring some damage to bear.

Because in a close fight the armageddon does more damage at a third of the price.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:39:00 - [827]
 

Originally by: Ms Rousseau

I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.



hehe...i know a few rpers that would prefer the abaddon to be an untypical amarrian bs. not because we want all races to have the same ships but because we only fly amarrian ships and still want to have some ships that are good for pvp. if all 3 of our battleships rely purely on lasers we get to be utterly predictable in bs-sized pvp. on the crusier and frig-level its not so bad because we have the arbitrator and inquisitor there.

now with the current bonuses on the abaddon:
5% laser damage (in case that gets fixed anyway)
5% armor resists

the abaddon is at least not as crappy as it was before.
it still fails because it still is nothing but a better geddon/apoc.
but at least now it can perform the gank part to some decree without running out of cap instantly.

now a quick fix would be to simply give it 6 unbonused launcher slots on top of that. then we would be able to actually use its supposed 2nd role and tank this ship without using projectile weapons.

and thats one of the points many amarrian rpers hate: our tankers are better off with matari weapons if they really want to get a good sustainable tank going. if our tank-line of ships had some launcher slots we could use this other zero-cap weapon for tanking and from an rp-point of view missiles are far less heretical than matari projectile weapons.

of course giving the abaddon launchers to tank with would further reduce the usefulness of the apoc but that ship has been in need of some change for a long time anyway.


another option would be the big-arbitrator in place of the abaddon or apoc:
10% drone dmg/hp
20% tracking disruptor optimal range
5 medslots
split launcher/turret/utility highslots
250m3 dronebay


there are a lot of other ways to make the abaddon useful. just giving us 3 more or less identical battleships is not going to help us much though.




Mordrake
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:43:00 - [828]
 

Just scanned this thread to see if the new Caldari BS was as badly nerfed as the Drake yet... good to see it seems like Tux hasn't caved to the complainers yet on this one.

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:44:00 - [829]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? Rolling Eyes
And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)


ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored? Razz


Wrong target. My portrait in Caldari because I prefer imperial uniforms over sunglasses, but ship-wise I am a Matari (well Jack of all trades really, but Caldari, Amarr and Gallente are just tools while the Minnie ones are my babies) so I take being called Caldari player an insult Razz

But still I wouldn't object to totally removing long range weapons! Laughing

Ms Rousseau
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:52:00 - [830]
 

Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
Originally by: Ms Rousseau

I think the devs should talk to some RPers to find out what is best to do since they would have the best idea of their racial identity. Maybe not getting input from RPers is what got the 4 races into this schizo mess-- all they've done is listen to non-RPings PvPers who seem to want the races to have all the same ships but with different skins.



hehe...i know a few rpers that would prefer the abaddon to be an untypical amarrian bs. not because we want all races to have the same ships but because we only fly amarrian ships and still want to have some ships that are good for pvp. if all 3 of our battleships rely purely on lasers we get to be utterly predictable in bs-sized pvp. on the crusier and frig-level its not so bad because we have the arbitrator and inquisitor there.

now with the current bonuses on the abaddon:
5% laser damage (in case that gets fixed anyway)
5% armor resists

the abaddon is at least not as crappy as it was before.
it still fails because it still is nothing but a better geddon/apoc.
but at least now it can perform the gank part to some decree without running out of cap instantly.

now a quick fix would be to simply give it 6 unbonused launcher slots on top of that. then we would be able to actually use its supposed 2nd role and tank this ship without using projectile weapons.

and thats one of the points many amarrian rpers hate: our tankers are better off with matari weapons if they really want to get a good sustainable tank going. if our tank-line of ships had some launcher slots we could use this other zero-cap weapon for tanking and from an rp-point of view missiles are far less heretical than matari projectile weapons.

of course giving the abaddon launchers to tank with would further reduce the usefulness of the apoc but that ship has been in need of some change for a long time anyway.


another option would be the big-arbitrator in place of the abaddon or apoc:
10% drone dmg/hp
20% tracking disruptor optimal range
5 medslots
split launcher/turret/utility highslots
250m3 dronebay


there are a lot of other ways to make the abaddon useful. just giving us 3 more or less identical battleships is not going to help us much though.






that's what's great about the Khanid ships, even though there seem to be only tech 2 khanid ships, aside from there, is there any reason not to have a Khanid battleship? I know CCP has a 10 year plan for eve, but i don't see why, barring some radical change in the races that there cannot be a missile spewing Khanid BS. It won't be better than a raven at missiles, but close enough to compare them while armor tanking. Is that unbalanced? I don't think so.

This is what I mean by asking RPers what they want, i think it's a great idea to break away from the rigidity of Amarr by using the Khanid designs, or even making in EWar-Drone ship like the Arbitrator. Any reason not too?

Mirasta
Taurus Inc
Mournival Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.21 23:56:00 - [831]
 

Edited by: Mirasta on 22/11/2006 00:03:23
Originally by: Asariasha
Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with
tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob Razz

Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will
encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be
crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it
be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got
pwned by a newb? ^^


Perhaps i wasn't clear. i was the noob in the Rokh, out tanking a ship with a tank bounous and out damaging a ship with a blaster bounous. But thats getting a Bit OT now.

Point is, i shoulden't have won.

Mordrake
Freelance Economics Astrological resources
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2006.11.22 00:13:00 - [832]
 

Edited by: Mordrake on 22/11/2006 00:15:44
Edited by: Mordrake on 22/11/2006 00:14:38
Originally by: Mirasta
Edited by: Mirasta on 22/11/2006 00:03:23
Originally by: Asariasha
Oh lol, how can anyone loose in a meant to be Balsterboat with
tech2 equipment to a tech1 Rokh. Ah, let me guess. Your with noob Razz

Sorry, but you aready mentioned the problems the Rokh will
encounter in terms of fleet fights. Also, a Rokh would be
crushed down by a Megathron Blasterboat, so why should it
be nerfed? Just because you fitted the wrong modules and got
pwned by a newb? ^^

Perhaps i wasn't clear. i was the noob in the Rokh, out tanking a ship with a tank bounous and out damaging a ship with a blaster bounous. But thats getting a Bit OT now.
Point is, i shoulden't have won.


This Caldari Character you are posting with must be your second account or an Alt..... were you posting in the BC Thread screaming to Nurf the Drake as well?

What race is your most developed "Main" Character anyways?




Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.22 00:22:00 - [833]
 

Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? Rolling Eyes
And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat)


ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored? Razz


Wrong target. My portrait in Caldari because I prefer imperial uniforms over sunglasses, but ship-wise I am a Matari (well Jack of all trades really, but Caldari, Amarr and Gallente are just tools while the Minnie ones are my babies) so I take being called Caldari player an insult Razz

But still I wouldn't object to totally removing long range weapons! Laughing


nah the target was not you, but the idea that a certain aspect of the game should be accessible only to players that pilot a certain race...

regardless if this can be considered boring or not...

the fact that a particular form of pvp can be considered boring is not a justification to have it relegated to caldari users only... expecially considering that fleet battles maybe are not that exciting but are probably the most important form of pvp as is the way alliance fight each other

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.22 00:23:00 - [834]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 22/11/2006 00:31:55
Edited by: Noriath on 22/11/2006 00:29:49
Originally by: Noriath
Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.

If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.


Originally by: Aequitas Veritas

Congratulations! You won the 2nd medal this week for utterly stupid posting!



Congratulations, you won the platinum bowl with minibar for utterly unqualified flaming!


Originally by: xOm3gAx
Thats not true even in the slightest...

Caldari you must train for...

Missiles - Primary for 2/5 of ships
And
Hybrids - Primary for 2/5 of ships

To get functionality from every ship. You cant apply ew here because each race has its own form of ew. Nor can you really apply drones here as each race can use them though gallente are far more effective as drone users.

Amarr - Lasers
Gallente - Hybrids
Matari - Projectiles


First of all you missed the point of my post, second of all, what you say is not in the least an argument that Caldari are hard to train, but in fact supports my statement that with Caldari skills you get tons of different ships all from the same skill, while all other races are forced to fly different ships to get the same range of possibilities, and ultimately if you want the best of everything you are forced to train Caldari.

Yes, you don't get full functionality for all your ships purely from training missiles, like you would for Amarr when training lasers. But Amarr get only ships with lasers, meaning if they want to to train for something with missiles, or EW they also have to train another races ships. Caldari do not, they can use their same old ship skills for everything.

Second of all, Caldari ships DO use the least skillpoints per ship, because everyone one of their ships is completly specialized in one thing. If you train missiles for Caldari you get a ship that uses only missiles, if you train guns you have a ship now that uses only guns, if you do either one for Minmatar most of your ships will still need the other to achieve full functionality.


The fact is and remains that Caldari is completly unbalanced because its one race that does it all, has hardly a single ship that needs more then one skillset, so you can specialize fast and branch out into other areas without learning other races. Everyone else except Amarr take longer to train, and Amarr are so one-dimensional in what kinds of ships they have to offer that even though you can train them to full functionality fast you then have to train for another race to do different things, which makes them a bad race to train for as well.

BugxEarl
Amarr
Izanagi Orbital Fleet
Posted - 2006.11.22 02:04:00 - [835]
 

Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.

In light of the calibration point change, I'd like to mention a couple of things;

t1 gets 200 calibration points, meaning....no more Abaddon filled with cap reduction rig! What does this mean? Basically, Abaddon's cap consumption got reduced by 33-% with the damage bonus change and it's got an increase of cap consumption by 15% due to rigs being unfittable. For christ's sake atleast boost the cap use reduction rig both for hybrid and laser. Doesn't have to be godly amount, just enough to compensate for the change.

Angelic Resolution
The Arcanum
Posted - 2006.11.22 04:16:00 - [836]
 

Abaddon is excellent. Only problem it has is 8 Large lasers, lots of cap drain and no real way to keep all 8 firing continually. Extra mid slot for a cap recharger would work nicely IMO.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.22 04:56:00 - [837]
 

And the Amarrian whinefest continues....

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2006.11.22 05:22:00 - [838]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
And the Amarrian whinefest continues....


I think I can talk in the name of all Amarr pilots:

**** off troll!

Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.22 06:45:00 - [839]
 

Edited by: Noriath on 22/11/2006 06:45:51
Originally by: BugxEarl
Caldari is not a jack-of-all-trade. They don't have a close range ganking ship with high damage output...but whatever, this whole Caldari this Caldari that is going off topic. Lets shift it back to something about tier3 BS.



They don't? Hmm, strange, I could have sworn a TP/RT Raven was up there with the most powerful close range gankers, and generally capable of a dozen non-gank setups that work brilliantly at under 20km.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2006.11.22 09:27:00 - [840]
 

Come on CCp. We are having several issues here but i will try to cover only a group the matar one. We have issues with arties loosing its AS.. maelstrombeing not very good... Amar ships with projectiles being better than mata with projectiles etc...

You can solve all this changing all 5% damage bonus on matarian ships to 7% and changing Maelstrom 5%rof to 7% damage. Now Projectiles would stay at Minmatar ships as well alpha strike.


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