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Noriath
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:27:00 - [781]
 

Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.

If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:50:00 - [782]
 

My reply about the skilltime/set was just to highlight that the people that ordered the Hyperion/Maelstrom/Abaddon already have to skills to fly them as they are nearly the same as the existant ships they already can fly and do not need new skills. Contrary to the Rokh, which still get more orders then the other three ships combined.

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.20 14:58:00 - [783]
 

The Abaddon new bonus are

Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.

It's far more cap stable now.

Caya
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2006.11.20 15:07:00 - [784]
 

Edited by: Caya on 20/11/2006 15:09:49
Originally by: voidvim
The Abaddon new bonus are

Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.

It's far more cap stable now.


Was just about to comment that. Good news, exactly the thing iv been dreaming for since i tried Abb for the first time. Now just the last little thing, change its description and it will be fine ship. Smile

PS. oh and seems like the bonus is not applied yet... bugged?

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.20 15:17:00 - [785]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 20/11/2006 15:24:02
Originally by: Caya
Originally by: voidvim
The Abaddon new bonus are

Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.

It's far more cap stable now.


Was just about to comment that. Good news, exactly the thing iv been dreaming for since i tried Abb for the first time. Now just the last little thing, change its description and it will be fine ship. Smile


It's like the Harbinger quit good at doing the whole armour and laser thing, my 8 tachyon with multifrqunecey and large T2 repaier still run the cap dry even with 4 t2 cap rechargers.

time for some rigging I think

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.20 15:40:00 - [786]
 

Anyone care to do an alpha strike comparison between Abaddon w/ tachyons and a tempest or maelstrom with artillery?

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.20 15:49:00 - [787]
 

Originally by: Forsch
Anyone care to do an alpha strike comparison between Abaddon w/ tachyons and a tempest or maelstrom with artillery?

The Abaddon would win in that comparison by a slim margin. However, alpha strike no longer matter as it does on TQ - you can say that alpha strike difference is 33% lower in significance with Kali, or that it needs to be 50% higher in order to notice a difference.

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:11:00 - [788]
 

Originally by: voidvim
The Abaddon new bonus are

Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.

It's far more cap stable now.



so it stays a design failure then.
nothing more than a better version of the already existing amarrian battleships.



Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:23:00 - [789]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.


No, it's not. The Rokh will be thebattleship to use in fleets as no other battleships will be able to shoot as far as it. Get ready for the new era of Rokh fleet battles, and anyone flying anything else will be considered "support".

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.20 16:51:00 - [790]
 

Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.


No, it's not. The Rokh will be thebattleship to use in fleets as no other battleships will be able to shoot as far as it. Get ready for the new era of Rokh fleet battles, and anyone flying anything else will be considered "support".


Give all tier 3 battleships a opitmal bonu might be a idea. with 3 optimal rigs + tracking computers most battleships reach the same sort of range, but the the rorh would have damage or rof rigsNeutral

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.20 17:14:00 - [791]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/11/2006 17:14:13
nope rigs stack with modules so you can't gain much range from them

even giving to mael something like +rof +optimal will make it quite inferior to the rokh as the damage will be maybe balanced but the caldari ship will have way better tanking

will never be tired to say... problem is not in mael itself but in weapons...

arty is total crap compared to rail...

425mm do around 20-25% more dps than 1400mm and at 1400mm best damage it have around 30% more range... on top of that it have better tracking and fitting... (no mods or bonuses considered, just long range t2 ammo)

and for sure cap is not a big issue for a railboat in fleet

as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...

if arty will get, for example, a 40-50% optimal range boost both "base weapon" and ships (mael vs rokh) will be quite balanced... (of course mael should have shield boost bonus converted in passive shield hp bonus)

Blackhorizon
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.20 17:52:00 - [792]
 

Edited by: BlackHorizon on 20/11/2006 17:56:21
Yup, the abaddon is still a ship without a purpose. Okay, it's got some alpha strike now going for it. But it's still outdamaged at close range(drones) and outsustained by the Armageddon which is 1/3 the third cost. At long range, the difference between the Abaddon and Armageddon is negligible (9.333 guns versus 10 guns).

The Armageddon will remain the fleet BS of choice because of cost -- insurance alone on the Abaddon is 54M. For high sustainbility (eg. POS warfare, PvE) the Apoc is better. And if you want to tank, you're better off fitting projectiles instead of lasers.

However, all his talk about a fleet amarrian BS is now irrelevant really with the Rokh. With the T2 long range ammo nerf and the subpar range of beams, an amarrian BS will have a hard time competing in ranges above 170 km. There is no fleet ship now other than the rokh.



Kaden Seer
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.20 18:02:00 - [793]
 

Edited by: Kaden Seer on 20/11/2006 18:15:33
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
so it stays a design failure then.


Yeah. I'm gonna stick to the current ships, because these new ones are a waste of time

Wheya
Amarr
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
Posted - 2006.11.20 18:46:00 - [794]
 

Originally by: voidvim
The Abaddon new bonus are

Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level.

It's far more cap stable now.


This change is a nerf but not a boost. 5%RoF > 5%dmg. The Abaddon wasn't in need of a nerf.

It might be more cap stable now but it will also take more time to kill an opponent which is bad for your cap. The only chance an Abaddon had in theory (it did not worked) to win against another battleship was to do significant more damage while using plates instead of repairers. With the potential doing damage being nerfed, now active tanking with dual repairers, using projectile weapons and NOS becomes the best option for the Abaddon.

As long as devs try to make the Abaddon a laser using and armor tanking ship as long the Abaddon will have problems to find its role beside Apoc and Arma. It should do either significantly more damage than an Armageddon (which is not true neither with a RoF bonus and for sure not with a damage bonus) or it should be able to tank a lot better than the Apoc while still doing at least decent damage with lasers (which is also not true because the Apoc has significant more cap for tanking with its 2 cap bonuses for lasers and capacitor size. A 25% armor resistance bonus can't competete with this 2 bonusses: 2 reppers > 1 repper + 25% resistance).

I can see 4 options
1) make Abaddon a missile boat. That's what I prefer.
2) make it a drone boat
3) try 7.5 - 10% RoF bonus. (Yes, I know how fast it drains cap). Then we have the old gankageddon problem, though.
4) make Abaddon a significant better tanker than Apoc. The resistance bonus is a good start but it lacks the cap for repairers. I fail to see a solution for the cap problem if it should be able to competete with the Apoc in tanking. 10% boost for capacitor size instead of the Apocs 5%?

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.20 19:19:00 - [795]
 

The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.20 19:45:00 - [796]
 

Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.20 19:49:00 - [797]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.


Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.

Serapis Aote
Minmatar
TBC
VENOM Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.20 20:22:00 - [798]
 

Was this thread mostly useless. Lots of good ideas in here, but not a single thing from the devs.

Most of the ships, save the Rockh dont seem much different then other BS. This has been pointed out since pg. 1.

The only new thing done is to make the Amarr BS just a bigger version of their other two ships.

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.20 22:54:00 - [799]
 

Originally by: Tribunal
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: Tribunal
The problem is that the new battleships are being stuck with only two bonuses. Two bonuses means that each bonus has to be absolutly vital and that means that there will not be much creative thought into what they are. So, we end up having the same old bonuses rehashed which leads to these new battleships treading on the turf that most of the other battleships already cover.

Raise the bonuses to three per ship, and get rid of the 10% optimal on the Rokh.

Your first paragraph and your second line doesn't make sense in a common context.

The Rokh is just about the only tier 3 that doesn't tread on other ship's turf. And the only ship that's well executed, imo.


Actually, the Rokh's optimal bonus treads on every single battleship's turf that wants to take part in a fleet battle. Creative bonuses mean balanced bonuses (and allowing one BS the ability to shoot at a range no other battleship can reach is not balanced), so the context of what I wrote makes perfect sense.

Well, except that the Rokh's concept is (easy) sniping/fleet.
While we have a lot which aren't really meant for fleet combat: Megathron (close combat), Dominix (even more confined to CC), Hyperion (CC), Raven (nill to mid range), Typhoon (many needles and all that), Tempest (sort of an all-rounder), Armageddon (mid range), Apoc (tanking - alright, it doesn't do it great).
Then we have those meant for fleet: Scorpion (EWar, and does it good), Maelstrom, and Abaddon.

Let's talk Abaddon and Maelstrom. Well, the Abaddon might not be specifically meant for fleet, but it's the only place it's got the cap to perform. The Maelstrom is lacking in execution, but that's no thing to do with the Rokh.

Since we've got an artificial 250km limit, it is actually possible for nearly all ships (even Hyperion) to participate in fleet battles. The problem is you need T2 guns and T2 ammo. The Rokh is different in that it can do it really well with T1 guns and T1 ammo.

I'm saying the Rokh isn't intruding on any battleship's turf since there are only four possible suspects for the turf: One it can't intrude on, one that's admittedly lacking, one that is the Rokh itself, and the last one which is doubtful if it was meant to be in the list.

NOW. Let's talk intruding on turf.
Hyperion: Hey! I'm a blasterboat! Move aside puny Megathron.
Abaddon: Hey! I'm a tanking ganking boat! Move aside... aw crap, I'm out of breath.

When it comes to the Maelstrom, I couldn't honestly put it in the list. It's bonuses doesn't complement it very well, and.... you know.

As has been said, a great many good ideas in here (my opinion might be coloured since my post count in this thread is quite high... well) but few responses from devs. Don't know whether they think we're being smartypants or whether most of the best ones would require a renovation of the whole battleship class to fit in properly.
Sad thing is, I think the concepts are nailed down and they don't give a rats arse about the thread since most of the posters aren't thrilled about the concepts.

Kaeten
Hybrid Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.20 23:38:00 - [800]
 

I'm highly dispointed at the new changes... Just got on for first time checking all ship setups, hyperion sucks. Mainly because it's supposed ot tank with 6 low-slots... ok... The 5th midlost is a waste of space and the extra cpu isn't need imo. If you wanna make the hyperion a blasterboat give it 7 lows 4 mids... The megathorn should have 5 mids and 6 lows tbh as its meant for fleet.

Imode
Celestial Apocalypse
The Requiem
Posted - 2006.11.21 00:03:00 - [801]
 

Originally by: Kaeten
I'm highly dispointed at the new changes... Just got on for first time checking all ship setups, hyperion sucks. Mainly because it's supposed ot tank with 6 low-slots... ok... The 5th midlost is a waste of space and the extra cpu isn't need imo. If you wanna make the hyperion a blasterboat give it 7 lows 4 mids... The megathorn should have 5 mids and 6 lows tbh as its meant for fleet.


1 extra mid for tracking comp II to compensate for no tracking bonus
1 less low but 7.5% armor rep bonus and enough grid to fit 2 LAR II's gives it a better tank than the dual accom electron mega.

Tribunal
FIRMA
Posted - 2006.11.21 01:27:00 - [802]
 

Originally by: Ithildin
Since we've got an artificial 250km limit, it is actually possible for nearly all ships (even Hyperion) to participate in fleet battles. The problem is you need T2 guns and T2 ammo. The Rokh is different in that it can do it really well with T1 guns and T1 ammo.



Tech 2 ammo was decreased to 80% instead of 100% which means that the max range a Mega can fire with 3 tracking computer 2 and 3 tracking enhancers 2 (which is not a reasonable setup in the least)is ~210k while the Rohk can warp into a sniper spot ~211k - 249k and fire away without a single worry.

Balanced? I think not.

FalconHawk
Amarr
Shadow Rebellion
Posted - 2006.11.21 01:46:00 - [803]
 

why the tier3 BS have a shield recharge time of 2000 seconds? all other bs have only 3000 seconds, that a pretty nice 1/3 boost for all shield tankers ...

no fun anymore to be amarr Evil or Very Mad

BugxEarl
Amarr
Izanagi Orbital Fleet
Posted - 2006.11.21 03:30:00 - [804]
 

Abaddon's turrets do 7% more DPS over geddon with same condition (as in, same skill and same number of HSII mounted). The DPS differs between Tachyon and Pulse, much less the setup between fleet and gank so I won't go into details; it doesn't really matter.

Abaddon has smaller drone bay compared to the geddon.

5 Medium drones: 150 +/- DPS depending on which drone are used
5 Heavy drones: 310 +/- DPS depending on which drones are used.
4 Heavy drones: 250 +/- DPS blahblah

Abaddon does both close-range and fleet-range decently. I would not say 'better' since that depends on personal preference of whether someone wants flexibility, survivability, etc. One thing I can say though, is that Abaddon is basically a ship which cost more and does the job of either Geddon or Apoc with some slight bonus.

Honestly, I myself would not fly an Abaddon for ganking simply because that 180m isk + 50m for fitting of an abaddon would easily afford me 2 geddon. Its like fitting an expensive (but unnecessary) faction gear for something I could do without. Same thing for fleet; when you have 30 other ships in a fleet, does having a ship that does 7% more damage really matter if you'd still die in a few seconds of focus fire? Even with Kali's HP increase, ships still go down really freaking fast if there are 30 other ship firing at you.

Abaddon still needs 2 RCUII to fit turret rigs for cap reduction, which doesn't make the fitting any easier. I have a feeling this ship is going to turn into one of those 'its nice to have but not worth the isk' for PvP aspect, much like...*censored to avoid flame*.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:21:00 - [805]
 

God, will the Amarrian whinning ever end?

To the game Dev,

If you want to know why you hear mostly Amarr pilots cry, here is the reason.

1. Caldari has the best new BS. So they are happy.
2. Gallente new BS is just okay, but they plan to fly Rohk, so they are happy.
3. Minmatarr BS is the crap, but they plan to fly Abaddon, because its better for Projectile then Beam, so they are happy.
4. Which leaves us with Amarrians....

Please do something for them! Here is my proposal... give Abaddon a third bonus, 10% armor hp increase per level also!

2SecondsTilMidnight
Posted - 2006.11.21 05:46:00 - [806]
 

Why not just nerf Rohk's range bonus? Everyone is complaining about it :)

xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
Posted - 2006.11.21 06:51:00 - [807]
 

Originally by: Noriath
Caldari still get the least skilltraining of all races because they only need one set of ship skills to get the best EW, the best PvE, one of the best short range PvP ships and the best long range PvP ships.

If you train for any other race you are basicly forced to train Caldari as well to get that kind of functionality.


Thats not true even in the slightest...

Caldari you must train for...

Missiles - Primary for 2/5 of ships
And
Hybrids - Primary for 2/5 of ships

To get functionality from every ship. You cant apply ew here because each race has its own form of ew. Nor can you really apply drones here as each race can use them though gallente are far more effective as drone users.

Amarr - Lasers
Gallente - Hybrids
Matari - Projectiles

ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2006.11.21 08:16:00 - [808]
 

Originally by: xOm3gAx

Thats not true even in the slightest...

Caldari you must train for...

Missiles - Primary for 2/5 of ships
And
Hybrids - Primary for 2/5 of ships

To get functionality from every ship. You cant apply ew here because each race has its own form of ew. Nor can you really apply drones here as each race can use them though gallente are far more effective as drone users.

Amarr - Lasers
Gallente - Hybrids
Matari - Projectiles



Matari -
armor tanking
shield tanking
missiles
projectiles

sorry... you'll never win a sp requirement battle with those that fly matari ships.



Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:25:00 - [809]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 21/11/2006 11:26:31
Also, drones are important. While caldari also have to train for them they only have to in a much smaller amount - they have no ship which can mount 5 heavies.
Those are responsible for significant amount of the geddons, megas and typhoons dps. And, of cource are alltogether for gallente about as important as missiles are for caldari.

Kassidus
Gallente
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2006.11.21 11:31:00 - [810]
 

get rid of the rhok range bonus, should balance things out.


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