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Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.18 11:21:00 - [751]
 

Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Tiuwaz
still no changes to the battleships? Rolling Eyes

if these go live like that there'll be a ****storm coming from 3 outta 4 races


Im too exhausted from having complained since the preliminary stats showed up. CCP have had months to change them, but didn't. I dont think they think there is anything wrong with them. In a way, I kind of agree. They arent better than the previous ships and they arent worse either. They are just very... unexciting.



after months of no change i dont think aswell that there'll be any change till Kali hits, i am probably also past caring besides the occasional outburst

i have my setups rdy with which i can get some nice results, but it honestly feels like swimming against the stream to what they seem to have been intended for

Kaden Seer
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2006.11.18 14:58:00 - [752]
 

over nerfed ships? plz no Sad

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.18 15:51:00 - [753]
 

Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 20/11/2006 01:13:50
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 16:01:54
here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs

--------
Rohk
--------

Leave it as it is

--------
Abaddon
--------
- 2 turret slot
+ 4 missile slots
+ 1 mid
600 TF
20000 MW
175 m3 Drone bay

20% turret disruptor optimal range per level
5% armor resistance per level

--------
Hyperion
--------

- 2 turrets
+ 4 missile slots
- 1 low
+ 2 mid
83km lock range
150 m3 drone bay

20% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level
5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level

---------
Maelstrom
---------

10% Shield Hitpoints per level
5% Large Projectiles damage per level


And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.

O Olho
Posted - 2006.11.18 16:02:00 - [754]
 

Edited by: O Olho on 18/11/2006 16:02:47
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 15:52:12
here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs

--------
Rohk
--------

Leave it as it is

--------
Abaddon
--------
- 2 turret slot
+ 4 missile slots
+ 1 mid
600 TF
20000 MW
175 m3 Drone bay

10% turret disruptor optimal range per level
5% armor resistance per level

--------
Hyperion
--------

- 2 turrets
+ 4 missile slots
- 1 low
+ 2 mid
83km lock range
150 m3 drone bay

10% remote sensor booster optimal range per level
5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level

---------
Maelstrom
---------

10% Shield Hitpoints per level
5% Large Projectiles damage per level


And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.



Well that makes the Abaddon and Hyperion a little "Typhoonie" but I like it. My only suggestion would be to make the Ewar bonuses "+range AND +str" so they are a bit more potent. Range without strength leaves em lacking. And they need to reach 250km plz. Cool

And the Maelstrom is pretty much a no-brianer fix.


Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.18 16:12:00 - [755]
 

Kaylana Syi, I approve. I'd have the Hyperion a dampener efficiency bonus instead of a range bonus. A range bonus only increases optimal to about 45km at most, while an efficiency bonus might mean that you'll need one less dampener on a target.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.18 16:23:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: Aramendel on 18/11/2006 16:26:50
The scorp (and BB) has a 20% range boost/lvl, not 10%. Were the gal & amarr ECM BSs intentionally given weaker boni than caldari due to the higher amount of HPs, etc?

Also, I would give the aba rather -2 highs and +2 mids (and reduced grid). An utility BS with only 5 meds is a bit low. Yes, it's amarr, but that would still be 1 less than gallente and 2 less than caldari.

Ihar Enda
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.18 16:33:00 - [757]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi
stuff


Looks nice. Although I believe Hyperion would be better as:

10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level
5% remote sensor dampner strength per level

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.18 16:38:00 - [758]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---------
Maelstrom
---------

10% Shield Hitpoints per level
5% Large Projectiles damage per level




as long as arty will be so crap compared to rails even with these bonuses the mael will be useless in fleet...

its dps will be equal if not inferior to the rokh at all range and it still it will not be able to hit past 200km

also generally i prefer the rof bonus... even with dmg bonuses the hp boost will made the mael worse than the old pest alpha strike, so for me a rof bonus is always better :P

first problem of minnie long range ship atm is artillery that is hugely underpowered, not the ship bonuses themselves

Ionstream
Posted - 2006.11.18 17:52:00 - [759]
 

Abaddon
--------
7 turret hardpoints
2 missile hardpoints
8 high
4 mid
8 low
600 TF
22000 MW
75 m3 Drone bay

10% tracking disruptor effectiveness per level
15% cap reduction to weapon cap usage per level

give it the cap of an apoc or slightly higher with the same recharge rate.

[proper fleet ship, can fit tachyons and actually run them and it can use the amarr canon ewar or choice.]

Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions
Posted - 2006.11.18 18:08:00 - [760]
 

Ihar Enda, a dampener range bonus would be absolutely necessary to be a lot higher than 10% per level to be effective. Even with 20% per level it will still come short 60km of a Scorpion.
Dampener range as it is right now (30km+60km) is more than enough as long as it is fitted on a ship that otherwise do not lack punch-power.

While I strongly oppose the naïve notion that cost will balance things out, double cost do merit a small advantage compared to, say, the Scorpion in that the Hyperion would also have punch-power in slightly greater quantity than the Scorpion - if the Hyperion were to be a dampener ship.
What I'm saying is that the damage bonus should not be removed, although perhaps not rival the Megathron as such.
Originally by: Ath Amon
Originally by: Kaylana Syi

---------
Maelstrom
---------

10% Shield Hitpoints per level
5% Large Projectiles damage per level




as long as arty will be so crap compared to rails even with these bonuses the mael will be useless in fleet...

its dps will be equal if not inferior to the rokh at all range and it still it will not be able to hit past 200km

also generally i prefer the rof bonus... even with dmg bonuses the hp boost will made the mael worse than the old pest alpha strike, so for me a rof bonus is always better :P

first problem of minnie long range ship atm is artillery that is hugely underpowered, not the ship bonuses themselves

In order to maintain the Tempest's current relative alpha strike you need damage bonuses (not rate of fire, mind) to make 11.25 turrets. A Maelstrom would have alpha strike of 10 turrets with a damage bonus.

This would mean that Minmatar retained 89% of it's alpha strike (against T1 ships, against T2 ships the Maelstrom would actually do 107% of the Tempest's current percentual alpha strike) for it's main fleet battleship. Now, that might not be quite enough for a Real Scary Fleet Ship™, but it might just be enough to offset and challenge the Rokh for a different kind of fleet.

Someone needs to do a graph showing how many salvoes it takes before the Rokh out-damages the Maelstrom (with a damage bonus). I'm quite certain that if the Maelstrom gets to shoot two salvoes before the Rokh catches up, the Maelstrom might get a nice little niche as the elite's choice for fleet ship. (The Rokh will allow for T1 participation on ranges otherwise reserved for T2 if the fleet's commander has alpha-strike preferences)

Forsch
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.18 18:36:00 - [761]
 

Edited by: Forsch on 20/11/2006 09:15:17

Originally by: Kaylana Syi
--------
Abaddon
--------
- 2 turret slot
+ 4 missile slots
+ 1 mid
600 TF
20000 MW
175 m3 Drone bay

20% turret disruptor optimal range per level
5% armor resistance per level


Yes, please.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.18 19:15:00 - [762]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 19:27:14
here the cumulative damage of +dmg mael vs rokh

the dps of the 2 ships is veeeeeery similar, with the mael that tend do "degrade" a bit at various reloads

10 min
graph1

26 secs
graph2

as you see the alpha advantage is not that huge and the 2 damages are quite balanced...

what throw away that balance are the 50km of higher optimal range that makes the alpha and dps of mael pointless as it will not be able to hit its enemy...

this is mostly because rails have pratically an "inbuilt bonus" in their stats with higher base dps and higher range...

some posts ago i linked a comparsion between arty and rails... the real problem is there, as long as the 2 weapons will be umbalanced so will be also the ships



Brother Todd
Posted - 2006.11.18 20:01:00 - [763]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon

this is mostly because rails have pratically an "inbuilt bonus" in their stats

Also might have something to do with that extra damage mod you threw in there..

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.18 20:10:00 - [764]
 

Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 20:10:44
extra damage is in because i tend to compare rokh with 4dmg/1track vs mael with 3dmg/3track

so actually the rokh is also saving a module over the mael...


and adding... the comparsion i was referring is whitout taking in account any dmg module or ship bonuses

MellaRinn
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2006.11.19 06:32:00 - [765]
 

OK, I will probably not be the first one to say it here, but...

I just saw a Rokh tank 3 hyperions (no drones) at 98% shield permanently until they got bored/ran out of ammo.

kthx :/

Buster Terrik
Warhamsters
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
Posted - 2006.11.19 11:32:00 - [766]
 

Quote:
--------
Hyperion
--------

- 2 turrets
+ 4 missile slots
- 1 low
+ 2 mid
83km lock range
150 m3 drone bay

10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level
5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level

love the idea, althrough 10% optimal per lvl isnt enough. I mean, if it supposed to be fleet EW ship, it should be able to do EW on fleet distances, i.e. 140-180km. with 10% per lvl and maxed skills it will have only 67.5km opt and 90km faloff for sensor dampeners, i.e 157km max...
it need at least 20% sensor dampener optimal per lvl, preferally 25% (well, someone can say it can be overpowered).
At least this kind of ship will be _useful_ for gallente pilots, as in current state its just cool-looking useless expensive toy.

Hohenheim OfLight
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2006.11.19 13:14:00 - [767]
 

I would like to be able to fit the malstrom like this all the time,

8 turrets

I am quit sure how ever its some sort of bug Crying or Very sad

voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2006.11.19 13:39:00 - [768]
 

Edited by: voidvim on 19/11/2006 13:54:39
Originally by: Kaylana Syi
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 18/11/2006 16:01:54
here is how Kaylana would fix the new Tier 3 BSs

--------
Rohk
--------

Leave it as it is

--------
Abaddon
--------
- 2 turret slot
+ 4 missile slots
+ 1 mid
600 TF
20000 MW
175 m3 Drone bay

10% turret disruptor optimal range per level
5% armor resistance per level

--------
Hyperion
--------

- 2 turrets
+ 4 missile slots
- 1 low
+ 2 mid
83km lock range
150 m3 drone bay

10% remote sensor dampner optimal range per level
5% Large Hybrid Turret damage per level

---------
Maelstrom
---------

10% Shield Hitpoints per level
5% Large Projectiles damage per level


And there you have it. The most exciting thing you could do for all the Tier 3 BS. So what if the Hyperion isn't godly blasterboat! I'll use all 4 of these ships in equal measure that is for sure. Everyone gets something different.



This is the sort of think I would like for the new battleships. Personal I think some of the problems with the new battleships is that their tier 3, these ships would be great if they were tier 1 or 2 and have the same tier cost. Also there stats would of course need to be lowered to make them equal to their cost.

Maybe what I'm thinking of is to add two new battleships per race to make them in line with cruisers. Which I know ccp has no plans for of course, but it would seem to be what we the community wants.

Sophie Malaster
Heavy industries Shinohara
ARTESANOS
Posted - 2006.11.19 15:11:00 - [769]
 

The gallente use, at fist time, drones, you should add more drone bay to the hyperion, it's a great bs but only 4heavy drone for a gallente bs it's a damage again gallentes.ugh

Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2006.11.19 15:13:00 - [770]
 

Originally by: Kaylana Syi

Abaddon
--------
- 2 turret slot
+ 4 missile slots
+ 1 mid
600 TF
20000 MW
175 m3 Drone bay

10% turret disruptor optimal range per level
5% armor resistance per level



- 10% optimal is too weak to actually reach sniper range. the caldari ew range bonuses are always for 20% per level and ecm already starts out with a better optimal range (well at least the racials do).

- if you dont give a real bonus to lasers add some more launcher hardpoints. otherwise we just end up with another projectile boat.

- why should amarrian and gallente tier3 bs get one more slot than minmatar and caldari?


other than that is a lot better than what tux came up with.
i would still prefer a big arbitrator with 20% td optimal range and 10% drone dmg/hp.


Spikum
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2006.11.19 16:24:00 - [771]
 

Edited by: Spikum on 19/11/2006 17:11:58
Edited by: Spikum on 19/11/2006 16:25:05
In my opinion the Hyperion needs more powergrid and less CPU like -30 CPU and +1000 PG.

It was a pain to fith 7 Neutrons on a Mega and now you have 8 turretpoints but still you have problems with only 7 neutrons.

*edit 2

Also the Hyperion got one less lowslot :(

Asariasha
Caldari
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2006.11.19 21:29:00 - [772]
 

Having the possibility to fit 8 turrets doesnt mean to be able
to fit the strongest version of a weapon type.

Ratzap
Gallente
InterGalactic Corp.
Imperial Republic Of the North
Posted - 2006.11.20 00:46:00 - [773]
 

Hyperion - for something that's supposed to be a blaster machine, it's extremely disappointing. 6 lows is bad enough but then the low PG means you have to fit ions/electrons and forget NoS unless you want to drop a turret.
This ship needs another low and/or more PG. Nice graphic on it now but shame its crud ;) But then, CCP have a habit of misleading info texts on things eh.

Rokh is too good as is TBH, it can fit fill rack of 425s, good tank and only needs 2 PDS2 to do it (which it can easily spare since it doesn't need lows to tank).

Ratzap

Kaylana Syi
Minmatar
Coreli Corporation
Naraka.
Posted - 2006.11.20 01:15:00 - [774]
 

all the ewar bunuses i stated are now at 20%

Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
Posted - 2006.11.20 01:38:00 - [775]
 

Edited by: Soulita on 20/11/2006 02:53:18
Edited by: Soulita on 20/11/2006 02:08:50

Originally by: Ratzap
Hyperion - for something that's supposed to be a blaster machine, it's extremely disappointing. 6 lows is bad enough but then the low PG means you have to fit ions/electrons and forget NoS unless you want to drop a turret....


I dont know if I understand you right - you mean you cant fit nos when you have ions, for example, in the other highs?

I have no problems fitting 2 or 3 nos and the rest ions on it.

Was some trying out finding a good setup for it, but once i did I must admit I like the hyperion. Only thing I dont like about it is the high mass and low base speed.

Still, the rokh seems better yet. That boat realy rokhs.

Zarch AlDain
GK inc.
Posted - 2006.11.20 11:10:00 - [776]
 

I just saw something very interesting in the sell forums.

Someone is taking pre-orders for BPCs of all teir 3 BS - 30 of each.

Amarr - Abaddon - 8 ordered

Caldari - Rokh - 30 ordered - sold out

Gallante - Hyperion - 20 ordered

Minimatar - Maelstrom - 7 ordered


It's a relatively small sample set, but shows very clearly that people like the rokh, thing the hyperion is worth a try, and that both the abaddon and maelstrom need a lot of work.

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.20 11:17:00 - [777]
 

Originally by: Zarch AlDain
I just saw something very interesting in the sell forums.

Someone is taking pre-orders for BPCs of all teir 3 BS - 30 of each.

Amarr - Abaddon - 8 ordered

Caldari - Rokh - 30 ordered - sold out

Gallante - Hyperion - 20 ordered

Minimatar - Maelstrom - 7 ordered


It's a relatively small sample set, but shows very clearly that people like the rokh, thing the hyperion is worth a try, and that both the abaddon and maelstrom need a lot of work.



The market has spoken.....this is consistent with the comments found in this forum. So much for game balance; let's hope this gets fixed before the Kali code freeze. On the other hand - look at the phoon and weep.


Dixon
Caldari
Hells Donkeys
Posted - 2006.11.20 12:38:00 - [778]
 

Originally by: Gragnor

The market has spoken.....this is consistent with the comments found in this forum. So much for game balance; let's hope this gets fixed before the Kali code freeze. On the other hand - look at the phoon and weep.

I actually think this is more consistent with the number of players flying each race rather than balance.

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2006.11.20 12:41:00 - [779]
 

That market sample is extremely biased towards the amount of pilots actually able to fly the ships.

I certainly share some of the sentiments of this thread about the screwed balance between then, but this market sample says nothing.

If 50% of the players would have trained Minmatar cos they were so easy to use and omgwtfown in missions and they already had a Matari character anyway it would have been the Maelstrom being sold out.

Of course in reality we need to replace Minmatar with Caldari and we get the results as they are.

PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.20 13:40:00 - [780]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux

If 50% of the players would have trained Minmatar cos they were so easy to use and omgwtfown in missions and they already had a Matari character anyway it would have been the Maelstrom being sold out.

Of course in reality we need to replace Minmatar with Caldari and we get the results as they are.



As far as I'm aware there are many people that can fly Caldari Ships because the Raven is simply the most flown mission ship, but as often stated they have trained for missiles and not for hybrid weapons.
With that in mind I think it really shows how good the rokh is compared to the other tier3 battleships as there are already so many orders even if that means the people that can fly caldari ships have to learn a whole new skill set to use the Rokh.


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