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PSEWAR
Amarr
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2006.11.17 18:19:00 - [721]
 

Just wanted to add my idea here about the cap problems of lasers and such also the cap problem of the abaddon.


Why not simply add something like the role bonus for weapons.

Add cap usage to launchers and projectil weapons.

Then add role bonuses to the ships for a specified weapon system which reduces the cap usage of that weapon to to 0.
Like that every ship gets a bonus for the weapon system it was designed to and the skill related bonus could be used for something usefull at least.

BugxEarl
Amarr
Izanagi Orbital Fleet
Posted - 2006.11.17 18:42:00 - [722]
 

Edited by: BugxEarl on 17/11/2006 18:43:05
Has anyone calculated the fitting on the abaddon with Tachyon and 2 cap rigs?

In order to fit 8 Tachy II, you need 2 RCUII. Since fleet fitting naturally uses 3 HSII, what does the low-slot end up looking like? 3 HSII, 2RCUII, 1TEII, 1 slot left for roughly 300 grid worth of jack didly squat! Ok, this ain't so bad...but what exactly makes abaddon so special aside from the fact that its essentially an Apoc with 33% increase in firepower? (It literally is one in term of fleet...it cost 50% more and provide 33% more firepower for half the duration of Apoc).

haq aan
Minmatar
Hauling hogs
Posted - 2006.11.17 18:50:00 - [723]
 

I really cannot understand the logic behind insisting maelstorm to be a fleet BS. Tempest is standing there waiting to fill that role.Neither minnies need one ,nor the ship model looks like one...It MUST be an AC boat with decent speed.

With Proj's alpha nerf, Hurricane nerf,..and incoming Vaga speed nerf ,..i really but really get tired of being Minmatar.


Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.17 19:52:00 - [724]
 

problem is the rokh... the mael, with fixes at shield booster bonus and at arties, that atm are not balanced at all compared to rails, can be balanced against the caldari BS

the tempest can't, even if arties will be rebalanced to rails... it simply have not enought guns and uses 2 bonuses to do what mael do with just 1 bonus, also sensor range is inferior

Deven Sunstorm
Black Fury
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:05:00 - [725]
 

I am so sad and very disappointed. I was praying the Abbadon would be the answer to my Amarr battleship blues but alas, I've been let down once again. I see no reason to continue to play Amarr.

ugh


XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:26:00 - [726]
 

Originally by: BugxEarl
Edited by: BugxEarl on 17/11/2006 18:43:05
Has anyone calculated the fitting on the abaddon with Tachyon and 2 cap rigs?

In order to fit 8 Tachy II, you need 2 RCUII. Since fleet fitting naturally uses 3 HSII, what does the low-slot end up looking like? 3 HSII, 2RCUII, 1TEII, 1 slot left for roughly 300 grid worth of jack didly squat! Ok, this ain't so bad...but what exactly makes abaddon so special aside from the fact that its essentially an Apoc with 33% increase in firepower? (It literally is one in term of fleet...it cost 50% more and provide 33% more firepower for half the duration of Apoc).


Not a fair comparison, Abaddon has more hp and 25% better all around resistance then the Apoc also.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.17 20:45:00 - [727]
 

I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.

Suggestion:
1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)

2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.

3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)

4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.

Caledric
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2006.11.17 21:21:00 - [728]
 

Originally by: Deven Sunstorm
I am so sad and very disappointed. I was praying the Abbadon would be the answer to my Amarr battleship blues but alas, I've been let down once again. I see no reason to continue to play Amarr.

ugh




Only reasons I haven't given up on my Amarr is A) over a year worth of training put in, B) Curse and Pilgrim.

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.17 22:28:00 - [729]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.

Suggestion:

3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)


The only problem is that Abaddon is not a better tanker than a geddon. The geddon can fit 7 Tachs, have 5 Heavy drones, and with skills, has 7 low slots left after it fits on EANM II to give it the same tanking as an Abaddon with more cap due to the 10% per level cap use bonus on the energy turrets.

The geddon has just as good or better gank and can have, with in 3-4 percent, just as good a max tank with a whole lot more cap left to do things, like fire weapons.


Tricit
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2006.11.17 22:37:00 - [730]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.

Suggestion:
1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)

2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.

3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)

4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.


So you're saying the Abbadon should be limited to small gank squads and pretty much nothing else?

Ath Amon
Posted - 2006.11.17 22:48:00 - [731]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it.

Suggestion:
1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!)

2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary.

3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)

4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk.


lol so if i understand right the rokh is balanced because not many caldari pilots have rails...

and because other ships are so crap that they will be not called as primary...

very nice balancing parameters... Laughing

Mastin Dragonfly
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:11:00 - [732]
 

Originally by: XFreedomX
3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon)


Of course, you SHOULD put autocannons on a ship with an energy turrets bonus to make it work, it's so logical.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:20:00 - [733]
 

While looking at the Rokh, i feel fortunate i don't use Raven's anymore... pure ccp sillyness, give the Tier3 Caldari BS an uber shieldtank and rails so the entire caldari BS user group will switch to railgun training Rolling Eyes

also...

WHEEEEEEE LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!! i can snipe AND tank at the same time...

Anyways now gonna fly the damn ships, see what thats like

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:34:00 - [734]
 

From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.

Rohk: You all think its the best because sniping is HOT. Everyone wants one. But so what, only one can be the best and right now it looks this is it. Donít worry about the shield resist bonus, its not gonna be a factor from 240km out. And if they get close enough, no amount of resist will help.

Hyperion: Sniping Mega player will be flying the Rohk, so the short range blaster boat is the only role for this ship. Looks good for that role.

Maelstrum: Iíd personally like to see the shield boost bonus replaced, but its not like this is a gimp bonus like some of you are saying. It is just not HOT like the range bonus.

Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canít have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. Donít believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)

Gragnor
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:52:00 - [735]
 

Edited by: Gragnor on 18/11/2006 00:55:50
Originally by: XFreedomX
From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.

Rohk: You all think its the best because sniping is HOT. Everyone wants one. But so what, only one can be the best and right now it looks this is it. Donít worry about the shield resist bonus, its not gonna be a factor from 240km out. And if they get close enough, no amount of resist will help.

Hyperion: Sniping Mega player will be flying the Rohk, so the short range blaster boat is the only role for this ship. Looks good for that role.

Maelstrum: Iíd personally like to see the shield boost bonus replaced, but its not like this is a gimp bonus like some of you are saying. It is just not HOT like the range bonus.

Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canít have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. Donít believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)



Placing an ACTIVE bonus on a fleet ship is ill conceived due to lag and the fact that once you're called primary- you're dead, all you can do is warp out. The Rohk offers resistances which is far superior in that you can accept more damage as you align to warp out (if not already). The Maelstrom concept in this regard is ill conceived and this, I believe has been acknowledged by CCP. As Minmitar allways get the shaft, we don't expect this to change, despite how many realistic suggestions we offer for alternatives.

AS for range. Well think of it this way; being a fleet ship sucks when you cannot hit the enemy with your uber leet t2 weapons (195km) due to tracking nerfs and range nerfs and the (I win) can inflict damage (however limited) Rohk can hurt you from 230km.

The irony is CCP TALKS about range nerfs YET introduces a new ship with a RANGE BONUS, calling it a fleet ship. Can you smell the bull****?

If the Rohk is not overpowered; the Maelstrom is massively underpowered. And CCP knows this and REFUSES to comment on the grounds that they know their player base is right but its too embarrassing to admit it.

That's why I am so frustrated and annoyed with CCP. To make a mistake is human, to put your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge it and fix it is stupidity.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2006.11.18 00:53:00 - [736]
 

meh, a main caldari ship with rails as its primary weapons is an abomination and nothing more, i couldn't care less if they gave it 10 railgun boni... now caldari BS pilots will have to make a choice, stick with missiles even though they know that there is a caldari BS outthere with a much better tank, or drop all those hard trained missile skills and work on your pathetic railgun skills.

My guess a lot of pilots will do the later still, cuz they want the uber shieldtank for missions.

But ok, enough ranting for now... i haven't even flown the damn thing yet so mebbe i shouldn't be so judgemental... (trying to get to the station where i bought both the rokh and the Drake so i can test them out)

(OT: 1 in queue.. and after a while my ship started orbitting the gate automatically... WTH? is that a new feature also?)

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.18 01:09:00 - [737]
 

Well, like I said Rohk is now the sniper of choice. Minni pilots will have to adjust to that, no question. As far as the resist bonus over the active, that is a fact, you are right. However, given the role of a sniper, you will not be tanking so its a moot point, you are called primary you die. Its not like the Rohk pilot will be putting shield hardner and booster on it... that would be funny... so effectively with the resist bonus you have about 30% extra shield hp to go though. Like I said, no big deal.

What can us Minni pilot do? I say, put your AC on the Abaddon and tank that baby up. I've not fly a tanked ship so looking forward to it. 4 AC 2 smart bomb, 2 hvy nos, mwd, webber, scram, sensorbooster, and a kick ass armor tank ftw!

Miri Tirzan
Caldari
Clan Korval
Posted - 2006.11.18 02:59:00 - [738]
 

Edited by: Miri Tirzan on 18/11/2006 03:02:07
Originally by: XFreedomX
From the response I am getting, you are all still thinking of only the ship you care about. Lets go over it again.

Abaddon: There is no such thing as Tank and Gank. You Amarr pilot canít have both. Fact of the matter is you have to chose one or the other. This ship is good enough to which ever one you want. Count yourselves lucky. (Oh by the way, it is way better then the geddon, 25% resist, higher HP, CAP. Donít believe me, come on the test server and I will show you how it will own a geddon)



All you seem to post is how good the Abaddon is when nearly anyone who actually flys Amarr ships have laid out many times this ships short comings.

Yeah it can gank but it will drain the cap, and that with dual injector and a full load of charges in the cargo bay with 2 minutes. That is at very long range where it does 14 percent more damage than a geddon for 2 minutes, but after that the geddon can still fire and the abaddon is flying away to get cap back and another full load of injector charges. The geddon is just better.

At close range the geddon owns the Abaddon with 7 turrets, 5 heavy drones, 8 lows and better cap usage.

Max tank for all three ships end up being within 3-4 percent of each other. Abaddon may be the best as a per tank percent wise, but not enough to win a fight with an Apoc. The Apoc will have nearly the same tank, will have the same drones, and will have nearly twice the cap so that it can tank and fire forever. Once again the abaddon runs out of cap if it trys to tanks and fire weapons, not ganking weapons, just weapons.

Abaddon is not better at either roll than the geddon or apoc so asking for a change that actully feels an Amarr ship class need is not unreasonable. As it is, the abaddon is going to be a wasted ship design that will see little use.



BugxEarl
Amarr
Izanagi Orbital Fleet
Posted - 2006.11.18 03:12:00 - [739]
 

xFreedomx, I don't intend to flame but you seem to be rather clueless as to how PvP works. If someone wants to use an autocannon and roam around in a tanked Abaddon, everyone might as well do the same on a blaster Rohk or AC Maelstrom; there is nothing Abaddon offers over Maelstrom in mounting an AC. No, it does NOT have a 'better' tank. PvP tank is the amount of damage ship can soak up before its dead or incapacitated, and with an AC it'll die before it kills the enemy. If you are going to make a point, please go test your statement BEFORE presenting it to us; its no better than a flame if you do not (however good intentions you may have).

Anyways, back to the point. Abaddon sacrifices its low-slot in order to get enough grid for cap use reduction rig. For close-range setup, it must sacrifice either a LARII or satify itself with rather pathetic 15% cap usage reduction (Can only mount single weapon rig due to grid problem). Since it cannot mount a plate like Apoc can in a fleet setup, long range setup does not get much of a better tank.

My solution?

If (now this is a big IF) Abaddon's bonus get adjusted to damage bonus per level (roughly 8~% overall damage reduction), energy weapon cap usage reduction rig should be changed to 25% reduction in cap usage. Close range, it'll still have less run-time than a geddon. At long range, you either must sacrifice some load of armor buffer for longer run-time, or can go for damage rig and get the best dps an Amarr sniper's got to offer. I think its a fair trade-off since it doesn't really make the ship more powerful since it'll still have cap problem.

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.18 03:15:00 - [740]
 

Originally by: Miri Tirzan

The only problem is that Abaddon is not a better tanker than a geddon. The geddon can fit 7 Tachs, have 5 Heavy drones, and with skills, has 7 low slots left after it fits on EANM II to give it the same tanking as an Abaddon with more cap due to the 10% per level cap use bonus on the energy turrets.


The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:15:00 - [741]
 

Originally by: Nifel
The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.


And the abaddon needs to fit about 4-5 cap recharge modules to sustain fire.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:43:00 - [742]
 

1) If you had read my earlier post, you'd have seen that my proposed solution to Abaddon's "problem" is to reduce the beam weapon's cap draw. I also stated above that with Abaddon, you need to choose weather you want to gank or tank, not both.

2) I will let others decide weather your geddan with 7 tachyon will win against the Auto Cannon configured Abaddon with the nos and the smart bomb at close range.

3) As for the Abaddon and Apoc have nearly the same tank... well, lets see both have 7 low slot but Abaddon has 25% resistance better then Apoc, seems like a 25% better tank to me. Please post your number for coming up with 3-4% of each other. (Oh, btw the difference between 80% resist and 75% resist is 25% reduction in damage)

XFreedomX
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:43:00 - [743]
 

correction 20% reduction. Embarassed

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.18 04:47:00 - [744]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Nifel
The geddon needs 2 RCUII to fit 7x Tachyon II's.


And the abaddon needs to fit about 4-5 cap recharge modules to sustain fire.


Easy on the trigger-finger. All I did was point out that you have in fact 6 lowslots left after fitting 7x tach2's on the geddon. This "discussion" brings absolutely nothing to the table. It's degenerated into finger pointing and head-bashing.

"ZOMG YOU CAN FIT AN EANMII ON THE GEDDON AND HAVE TEH SAME RESIST BONUS AS THE ABADDON!!!1"

Yeah? And what about the rest of the fittings. What about the entire scale? Skirmish to fleet battles? At what point does it break down? What could be done about it. This means leaving out complete reshapes of the ship. Aint gonna happen in the small time it's left before Kali is deployed (yay... go CCP... not).

Still think the Abaddon should have enough pg to put on 8x tach2 without fitting mods, 10% hp & 5% res and enough cap to fire the tachs for 3-4 minutes straight. Would make a valuable fleet ship, good buffer tank and possibly a good pulse/tank boat depending on just how much cap it'd be given.

Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Black Legion.
Posted - 2006.11.18 06:26:00 - [745]
 

Originally by: Nifel
Yeah? And what about the rest of the fittings.


But that is the whole point. Yes, a geddon need 2 RCUs to fit 7 tachs.

But an aba needs 1 RCU for 8 tach2, too. And 2 cap injectors to keep them firing for over 1 minute. Add 1 EAN2 to the geddon and both ships have exactly the same number of free slots.

Quote:
Still think the Abaddon should have enough pg to put on 8x tach2 without fitting mods, 10% hp & 5% res and enough cap to fire the tachs for 3-4 minutes straight. Would make a valuable fleet ship, good buffer tank and possibly a good pulse/tank boat depending on just how much cap it'd be given.


Yes, like that it would be a valuable fleet ship. Would need 24-25k grid for that though. And, of cource, there is then still the question if amarr really need *another* fleet ship or what exactly the apoc is then for.

Tiuwaz
Minmatar
No Paradise
Posted - 2006.11.18 09:28:00 - [746]
 

still no changes to the battleships? Rolling Eyes

if these go live like that there'll be a ****storm coming from 3 outta 4 races

Nifel
PAX Technologies
Posted - 2006.11.18 10:07:00 - [747]
 

Originally by: Aramendel
And, of cource, there is then still the question if amarr really need *another* fleet ship or what exactly the apoc is then for.


*shrug*

Some amarr (*cough* the whiners *cough*) has been complaining about the apoc for some time now. Change that instead? Once the 3rd 'special something' has been figured out for amarr that is. The only thing the apoc has going for it now that's unique to it is the ability to fire 8x tach2 (good alpha strike and good dps) for a very long time. Not breathtaking, but not half as bad as most people make it out to be either.

What I can see though is that this rush of getting something different, something new... *anything* has blinded many people. Chances are they'll shoot themselves in the foot trying to get that.

Mr Li
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2006.11.18 11:10:00 - [748]
 

the Rokh certainly has the longest range, but hardly a monopoly on sniping. I'll probably stick with the mega for a while, perhaps in extraordinarily large engagements I'll prefer a Rokh because it seems that with its range it can act as a check, but not necessarily a trump to enemy, non-Rokh snipers. And don't forget that it's not like there is a shortage of Covert Ops or other ways to screw over the brick with railgun hardpoints by closing in range.

Jim McGregor
Posted - 2006.11.18 11:13:00 - [749]
 

Originally by: Tiuwaz
still no changes to the battleships? Rolling Eyes

if these go live like that there'll be a ****storm coming from 3 outta 4 races


Im too exhausted from having complained since the preliminary stats showed up. CCP have had months to change them, but didn't. I dont think they think there is anything wrong with them. In a way, I kind of agree. They arent better than the previous ships and they arent worse either. They are just very... unexciting.

umah
Posted - 2006.11.18 11:19:00 - [750]
 

The Rokh NERF is just around the corner...

CCP never boosts. They NERF.

Abbadon, maelstrom and hyperion ain't gonna get a boost..


Originally by: 000Hunter000
While looking at the Rokh, i feel fortunate i don't use Raven's anymore... pure ccp sillyness, give the Tier3 Caldari BS an uber shieldtank and rails so the entire caldari BS user group will switch to railgun training Rolling Eyes

also...

WHEEEEEEE LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!! i can snipe AND tank at the same time...

Anyways now gonna fly the damn ships, see what thats like


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